45-70 CHAMBERING PROBLEM WITH THE SPEER 405 GRAIN BULLET

[gary rice]

Need a little help here, the speer 405 grain bullet chambers fine in my marlin rifles but my newly aquired 1886 browning while trying to close the lever, well the lever will not close all the way with this bullet. The bullets were seated to a col of 2.540. I got home from the range today and made up a dummy bullet with a col of 2.525, still will not lock up. all other bullets including the remington 405 all function fine. Any thoughts about this? I miced both bullets and they appear to be the same diameter. All were crimped with the lee factory crimp die.

[Sixgun]

Brownings have no "lead" and your bullet is crushing up against the lands. You can do one of three things---have a gunsmith open up the lead---seat your bullets in and use a Lee factory crimp to make your own crimp groove---or shorten the cases enough so you can crimp in the groove.----------------------Sixgun

[gary rice]

Brownings have no "lead" and your bullet is crushing up against the lands. You can do one of three things---have a gunsmith open up the lead---seat your bullets in and use a Lee factory crimp to make your own crimp groove---or shorten the cases enough so you can crimp in the groove.----------------------Sixgun

I see what youre saying but all bullets I use are the same col, like i said i even shortened the speer to a col of 2.525 and the lever doesnt close but will function with the remington or other bullets with the same col. maybe the speer is a little wider at the nose? Its sure not longer.

[Hobie]

Brownings have no "lead" and your bullet is crushing up against the lands. You can do one of three things---have a gunsmith open up the lead---seat your bullets in and use a Lee factory crimp to make your own crimp groove---or shorten the cases enough so you can crimp in the groove.----------------------Sixgun

I see what youre saying but all bullets I use are the same col, like i said i even shortened the speer to a col of 2.525 and the lever doesnt close but will function with the remington or other bullets with the same col. maybe the speer is a little wider at the nose? Its sure not longer.

Yes, the Speer bullet isn't a smaller diameter forward of the cannelure like the Remington. The Brownings have problems with some cast bullets for the same reason. This is exactly what Sixgun is referring to. The Browning throat or leade isn't designed for such bullets. It can be opened up and that is the ONLY thing that needs to be done.

[gary rice]

Brownings have no "lead" and your bullet is crushing up against the lands. You can do one of three things---have a gunsmith open up the lead---seat your bullets in and use a Lee factory crimp to make your own crimp groove---or shorten the cases enough so you can crimp in the groove.----------------------Sixgun

I see what youre saying but all bullets I use are the same col, like i said i even shortened the speer to a col of 2.525 and the lever doesnt close but will function with the remington or other bullets with the same col. maybe the speer is a little wider at the nose? Its sure not longer.

Yes, the Speer bullet isn't a smaller diameter forward of the cannelure like the Remington. The Brownings have problems with some cast bullets for the same reason. This is exactly what Sixgun is referring to. The Browning throat or leade isn't designed for such bullets. It can be opened up and that is the ONLY thing that needs to be done.

Ok i see what youre saying but since i dont have a problem with any other bullet ill probably leave it be, the remingtons are cheaper and shoot better anyway like the cast do. Many thanks you guys.

[RDB]

Browning chambers are bad enough and the newest Winchester chambers are even worse.
Best thing to do is have a good smith add .50" of free bore to these guns just as Winchester originally did back in the day. It won't hurt accuracy and will enable you to use most any bullet you want with no excessive pressures.

[Hobie]

Brownings have no "lead" and your bullet is crushing up against the lands. You can do one of three things---have a gunsmith open up the lead---seat your bullets in and use a Lee factory crimp to make your own crimp groove---or shorten the cases enough so you can crimp in the groove.----------------------Sixgun

I see what youre saying but all bullets I use are the same col, like i said i even shortened the speer to a col of 2.525 and the lever doesnt close but will function with the remington or other bullets with the same col. maybe the speer is a little wider at the nose? Its sure not longer.

Yes, the Speer bullet isn't a smaller diameter forward of the cannelure like the Remington. The Brownings have problems with some cast bullets for the same reason. This is exactly what Sixgun is referring to. The Browning throat or leade isn't designed for such bullets. It can be opened up and that is the ONLY thing that needs to be done.

Ok i see what youre saying but since i dont have a problem with any other bullet ill probably leave it be, the remingtons are cheaper and shoot better anyway like the cast do. Many thanks you guys.

That's what I do...

[SFRanger7GP]

From what I understand, the original 45-70 chamber was designed with no lead. Anyone that shoots black powder cartridge understands why. I have owned or own all of the Browning leverguns in 45-70. I was experiencing the same problems you are having and was at the point of selling the rifles or recutting the lead. Someone on this forum told me to trim my brass to minimum length and crimp at the top of the bullet groove with a Lee Crimp die. I did that and have not had any problems since. I shoot all the 350-405gr bullets in my Brownings with no problems now.

[JFE]

Browning chambers are bad enough and the newest Winchester chambers are even worse.
Best thing to do is have a good smith add .50" of free bore to these guns just as Winchester originally did back in the day. It won't hurt accuracy and will enable you to use most any bullet you want with no excessive pressures.

Doing what you suggest will very likely hurt accuracy with cast bullets. With cast you need the bullets to closely conform to the throat for best accuracy. If you are contemplating having the rifle throated I'd suggest making up dummy rounds with bullets you intend to use and have the smith open the throat just enough to chamber them. You dont need to open the throat all that much to get a lot more loading flexibility (probably of order 0.05")

[RDB]

There is little to no loss of accuracy shooting 45/70 in 45/90 chambers.
Winchester originally added the extra step to throat after chambering. They gave anywhere from .25" to .40" lead cut at .460" dia on the original rifles. Lead bullets are generally .459 to 460". They did a secondary milling operation to throat the rifles which is why the lead/freebore isn't shown on the original Winchester reamer prints.

The original 1886s, at least from 1890 to 1899, have long throats. 400g Speer bullets are not a problem in those rifle chambers. Dave Scovill mentioned it back in the winter of 2000 in RIFLE's, "LeverGuns". Many of the newer 400g bullets will have similar issues, 400g Barnes Buster and the Woodliegh 400s do in my new EL. Both bullets shoot just fine in my correctly chambered 45/90 Browning.

Manson 45/90 reamers take that into account with .050" lead/freebore cut and a dia. of .460" for lead bullets. I just had this discussion while ordering a new reamer from JGS which will have .33" of freebore. (cutting Win spec in half for a 45/85/405 project in a '86)

Thankfully the 1886 is so strong as many are running the bullets up against the rifleing and shooting. If the lever is hard to close the rifle/ammo combo is wrong and needs to be fixed.

Don't assume Browning or the recent Winchesters are duplicates of the originals in every way. Missing a step on chambering is a perfect example of the hand work, care and extra effort that went into the originals. And why you can shoot most every modern 400g bullet in them with no issue

[williamranks]

I had the same problem with a Winchester/Moroku EL '86 using the Lasercast 400 gr I use exclusively.
Being unemployed at the time I had a lot of time to think about it.
I chucked a round ball dremel fine grit grinding bit in an electric drill and ran it against a rock until it matched the dimensions of the exposed portion of the loaded bullet with the drive stem facing down the barrel.
I degreased the barrel and hung the rifle with the muzzle facing down. Ran some automotive vacuum hose up the barrel and slipped it over the drive stem of the stone.
The other end I chucked into a cordless drill on slow speed. Set the stone against the end of the rifling and spun it with the drill.
The tubing worked great because, too much pressure and the stone stops turning.
I checked every few seconds until the cartridge would chamber with no marks on the lead. Gave it one more grind and quit.
Flushed the grit out of everything and oiled the barrel.
The end of the rifling is now tapered to match the bullet with a few thousandths clearance.
It took at least 2 hours including coffee time.
Shoots good.

[gary rice]

Yeah this is very interesting to me. At first i thought i wouldnt screw with it now im changing my mind. who knows i might get a batch of cast bullets that wont chamber then ill be ticked off.