Ot - Nearly Sucked into buying EBR

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Post by OD* »

Hobie wrote:
OD wrote:
Griff wrote:What is the significance of the "Milspec Dia. FCG Pins"?
awp101, pretty well covered it. That and the are two Colt companies producing AR15s, Colt Defense LLC and Colt's Manufacturing LLC., the guns aren't the same.
Dan,
Can you tell us more about that? Which company got the big contract?
Colt Defense LLC makes all the Military & LEO ARs, Colt's Manufacturing LLC makes the civilian models, those without the bayonet lugs and some of them don't even have flash hiders.
November 4, 2002
Colt splits in two companies
Effective November 4, 2002, Colt completed reorganizing its operations into separate military and commercial businesses. As a result Colt Defense, LLC was established to conduct the business of manufacturing and selling military products while Colt’s Manufacturing Company, Inc. will continue to manufacture and sell commercial products. The ultimate goal of this reorganization is to better position and equip each business to compete in it’s own marketplace.
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Post by cnjarvis »

I'm going to be looking for stripped lower receiver at the gunshow this weekend so I can start a build... While I still can.

Mama won't let me buy a whole rifle until after the wedding is paid for. :wink:
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Post by mescalero1 »

cnjarvis,
That is prudent planning
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Post by awp101 »

cnjarvis wrote:Mama won't let me buy a whole rifle until after the wedding is paid for. :wink:
Any chance you can sell it as "his and hers" wedding gifts? :?
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Blackhawk
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Post by Blackhawk »

OD wrote:
Hobie wrote:
OD wrote:
Griff wrote:What is the significance of the "Milspec Dia. FCG Pins"?
awp101, pretty well covered it. That and the are two Colt companies producing AR15s, Colt Defense LLC and Colt's Manufacturing LLC., the guns aren't the same.
Dan,
Can you tell us more about that? Which company got the big contract?
Colt Defense LLC makes all the Military & LEO ARs, Colt's Manufacturing LLC makes the civilian models, those without the bayonet lugs and some of them don't even have flash hiders.
November 4, 2002
Colt splits in two companies
Effective November 4, 2002, Colt completed reorganizing its operations into separate military and commercial businesses. As a result Colt Defense, LLC was established to conduct the business of manufacturing and selling military products while Colt’s Manufacturing Company, Inc. will continue to manufacture and sell commercial products. The ultimate goal of this reorganization is to better position and equip each business to compete in it’s own marketplace.
Which puts the Colt 6920 model as Military or LEO, and not for civilians w/o calss III, right?

Or would this fall under a state law regulation with the 6920?


On topic: Hobie, I would build one. One can be built a lot cheaper than one can be bought.
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Post by cnjarvis »

awp101 wrote:
cnjarvis wrote:Mama won't let me buy a whole rifle until after the wedding is paid for. :wink:
Any chance you can sell it as "his and hers" wedding gifts? :?
I wish... :wink:

I need one for the daughter too - Thinking pink with "Hello Kitty" on it. :twisted:
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Post by cnjarvis »

Blackhawk wrote:Yes I would buy an EBR. But for the money an EBR such as an AR can built for much less. I'm with others about getting one before the '08 election. Had my sites set on a Springfield Scout but funds won't be ready before the election so I'm building an AR from Rock River Arms.

Side note: Most people think bad times situations are far from happening to them. I usually them stories about what happened with hurricane Katrina and the gun grab that went on down there.

Johnny
+1

I'm looking at a build too. Stripped lower from essential arms for $89 and a rifle kit from Del-Ton (includes everything but the stripped lower and mags) for $475-$500 depending on barrel. That looks like $600 +/- not including a FFL txf for the receiver or shipping. Figure $650 +/- for a new rifle.
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Post by cas »

OD wrote:I'd go with the Smith, Hobie.

Image
I've seen that chart before, but it doesn't make any sense. Stag is made by (or is) CMT, who is the same company that makes the S&W... so what gives?

I put them together all the time, though I rarely keep them for very long. Last night an upper arrived, the third I've bought in two months. Sold the first one after one range trip. The second didn't arrive yet and I'm selling it soon as it does. I seem to enjoy gathering all the parts and assembling them, but since I don't really need them and I find them boring to shoot, they don't stay long.
Last edited by cas on Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hobie »

Yep, an EBR "puzzle" is the way to go! :lol:
Sincerely,

Hobie

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Post by cas »

Oops Stag's M-4 clone is their Model #1. (still don't makes sense though.
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Post by OD* »

Blackhawk wrote:Which puts the Colt 6920 model as Military or LEO, and not for civilians w/o calss III, right?

Or would this fall under a state law regulation with the 6920?


On topic: Hobie, I would build one. One can be built a lot cheaper than one can be bought.
No Sir, anybody can own a LE6920, no federal tax stamp required.
I honestly don't know why they rollmark them LEO and Military and Export only. I bought mine a few months ago, the only catch to owing one is finding them at times. :wink:
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Post by gregg »

Hobie Just a few weeks ago I bought a S&W MP-15 with the flat top and carry handle with sight. Yup Sigma $99. Oldest boy grabed that and I did not even get it off the parking lot. You know I have never ever shot a AR before. I have a cheap 4X scope on it and its a hoot to shoot. I don't reget getting this rifle one bit. Nice Rifle. I think it shoots well. working with loads I would load 10 and shoot one in the back stop and run 3 groups of 3 shots. Yes I know 3 shot groups are not well thought well of. but of the 3 groups one would run just under an inch and one would run just over an inch and one would be closer to two inchs. Better scope and a trigger job and I FEEL it will hang at least I HOPE an inch. Hobie I will never give up my leavers but this thing is going to be my yote gun and one of my PD shooters.
Kit guns. I like the Idea. BUT I'm not sure if you buy a parts gun and a S&W so each part is the same quality you might save $150 and don't think they would hold there value as well. IDON'T KNOW THIS FOR SURE SO HOPE TO HEAR MORE INPUT ABOUT THIS.
CMMG has some nice rifles also. AND ACT AS IF THEY SUPPLY TO THE MIL. 4150 STEEL BARRELS I THINK.
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Post by awp101 »

OD wrote:No Sir, anybody can own a LE6920, no federal tax stamp required.
I honestly don't know why they rollmark them LEO and Military and Export only. I
The only "catch" I can think of if it was produced for Mil/LEO use and the 11%(?) FET wasn't paid. A local shop has some stuff in a display case marked "Military/LEO only" and when I asked why, that's what I was told.

AFA the markings, it could be to keep them out of "prohibited" cities/states.

BTW for anyone buying a stripped lower and thinking they can build a "pre-ban" after another AWB rolls around just because they bought it before the ban, the BATFEandsometimesY declared about halfway through the last AWB that if it wasn't in pre-ban configuration before the ban, it couldn't be made into the "bad" configuration even though the receiver was purchased PRIOR to the AWB. Nor could you strip the parts off and sell it to someone else to build a pre-ban. There were a bunch of folks stripping pre-ban weapons and selling the receivers at jacked up prices since most everyone was under the impression that a weapon could be built into pre-ban configuration since the receiver itself was pre-ban.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
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Post by OD* »

awp101 wrote: The only "catch" I can think of if it was produced for Mil/LEO use and the 11%(?) FET wasn't paid. A local shop has some stuff in a display case marked "Military/LEO only" and when I asked why, that's what I was told.
That could be? Colt started rollmarking them this way shortly after the "ban" was enacted, they're still marked this way.
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Post by cas »

"There were a bunch of folks stripping pre-ban weapons and selling the receivers at jacked up prices since most everyone was under the impression that a weapon could be built into pre-ban configuration since the receiver itself was pre-ban.

In NY we can. Got any pre-man lowers to trade for new? :D
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Post by OD* »

cas wrote: I've seen that chart before, but it doesn't make any sense. Stag is made by (or is) CMT, who is the same company that makes the S&W... so what gives?
I suppose it's like the other manufacturers, Cas, they build to different price points.
Last edited by OD* on Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by awp101 »

cas wrote:In NY we can. Got any pre-man lowers to trade for new? :D
I was going by the Federal AWB. I know NYS has one that is very similar but that may be one way where it differed from the Fed.

I know the ruling was made after they found a bunch of pb receivers being sold on auctions for the purpose of building "new" pb's. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the message boards (rightfully so IMO).
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Post by cas »

On the net people often ask about pre-ban and post ban and someone will invariably pronounce "There is no such thing as pre-ban any more." I always ask them "Then please sell me some rifles that used to be pre-ban for the same price as every other rifle. :D They never do.


I make my "be a good guy and don't gouge" offer all the time, I'll swap two brand new lowers of your choosing for one pre-ban that's no longer relevant to you. I don't get any takers on that either because people will still pay even more for them. :cry:
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Post by Blackhawk »

cas wrote:On the net people often ask about pre-ban and post ban and someone will invariably pronounce "There is no such thing as pre-ban any more." I always ask them "Then please sell me some rifles that used to be pre-ban for the same price as every other rifle. :D They never do.


I make my "be a good guy and don't gouge" offer all the time, I'll swap two brand new lowers of your choosing for one pre-ban that's no longer relevant to you. I don't get any takers on that either because people will still pay even more for them. :cry:

Cas,

What brand of parts are you using to build your rifle? Which in your opinion is best for the money?

Johnny
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Post by cas »

No set company, I've used all sorts of brands. I think much of it comes from only a few places, but made to different specs.

Unfortunately I suppose, you do get what you pay for, and in my experience the higher priced stuff IS better. Better tolerances anyway, fit and finish. The best upper and best lower I've ever owned were by far the most expensive,

Personally... I DO NOT like Olympic arms or DPMS. I say that not as a rifle snob, but because I own and have owned products from both companies. I stand by that statement, with the ironic part being the upper I just bought the other day is an Oly arms, and I often buy DPMS parts because I can get them cheaper. But for what they are, mostly small parts, it really doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong, both companies rifles will work and shoot fine. They're just not as nicely put together or finished as the others. I'd take DMPS over Oly.

There are companies to avoid... avoid anything from Blackthorn/Vulcan/Hesse. (run)
The upper/parts I had from Model 1 Sales seemed very cheaply made and flimsy. i wouldn't recommend them either.

Of the big names... I haven't seen much current Colt stuff so I can't really comment on it. Based on some of the older ones they wouldn't be my first choice. (and you do pay for the name a little) I would take Rock River Arms over Bushmaster, but thats based on minor differences in finish. S&W, Armalite, Stag... you can't go wrong with any of them.

The smaller shop stuff is a whole other ball game and there's a million companies selling parts. But price is a good guide. It's ALL over priced, but there is a noticeable difference in a lot of it. I've bought the cheapest lower and the most expensive lower and there is a big difference... but they all do they job about the same. It comes down to fit and finish.

FWIW.. i think the Stoner design is a HORRIBLE choice for a combat weapon.

:lol:
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Post by awp101 »

cas wrote:On the net people often ask about pre-ban and post ban and someone will invariably pronounce "There is no such thing as pre-ban any more." I always ask them "Then please sell me some rifles that used to be pre-ban for the same price as every other rifle. :D They never do.
If they are referring to pre-1994 AWB weapons they are technically correct.

If they are referring to the pre-89 import ban, they are incorrect. That's why the AKs, etc coming in are actually 1994 AWB correct (no lug, no FH, low cap/single stack receivers) because the ATF enforces the "sporting clause" in the 2nd Amendment. Once in country they are adapted to high cap, etc status and the parts count adjusted to meet 922r regs.

Don't get me started on 922r... :evil:
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Post by Idahoser »

:D
Last edited by Idahoser on Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gregg »

cas wrote:
FWIW.. i think the Stoner design is a HORRIBLE choice for a combat weapon.

:lol:
WHY ?? the Gas system? I was surprized to see they are a push feed .
They make a poor club. Whats your thoughts?
Thanks for the input. I'm so new to the EBR. I know they shoot better even in combat trim than I thought they ever could.
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Post by cas »

I think the "it's sh*ts where it eats" gas system is the lesser of the evils. I'm not crazy about the multi spline rotary bolt either. The biggest flaw in the design IHMO is all the space above the bolt. The fact that a base over bolt jam is even possible boggles the mind. I've seen it take three men, a flashlight, a pliers and a screwdriver to get a really good one cleared. The end result after much cursing and fighting was a removed cartridge that looked like a boomerang. I think the gas piston upper is an improvement, put it still leaves all that open space above the bolt and all the problems that can come with it. If it were a fatter case, we'd be set. But it's a bad combo with the .223 case head size.

Yes... the old butt stroke to the ground will usually clear them.
Forgetting the fact that it shouldn't be able to happen and you shouldn't have to do that... you aren't always going to have the time, place to do that maneuver. We'll leave stories of broken stocks and bent over buffer tubes for another time. Yes sir... the butt stroke to the ground will usually clear them. Usually. And when it don't... your dead.

"They make a poor club."

That's my first criteria for a battle rifle. It's ability to be used to beat a man to death with. And if at all possible, still work afterwards. :D

Don't get me wrong, they're great fun. Generally reliable and usually very accurate.
Slow is just slow.
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Post by Idahoser »

:D
Last edited by Idahoser on Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Blackhawk »

Idahoser wrote:
cas wrote:I "They make a poor club."

That's my first criteria for a battle rifle. It's ability to be used to beat a man to death with. And if at all possible, still work afterwards. :D

Don't get me wrong, they're great fun. Generally reliable and usually very accurate.
BATTLE RIFLE. Yes, except I can't expect to ever participate in a trench battle in my lifetime. This requirement is contrary to many things I (and apparently others) want when the AR is our choice- light weight and easy carry and lots of ammo being prime ones. For light and easy, you aren't going to get "When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood."

(from that wonderful comparison, "Stuff you know when you have an AR/AK/Mosin Nagant")
In a bad times situation you can expect to engage targets at greater distances. Take for example living in the country, a battle rifle would need to be one that can take game and enemy at various distances. Another point to consider is shot/kill ratio when comparing calibers. The 5.56, say you're using a 30 rnd mag. Shot/kill ratio in the 30 rnd mag would be 2-3 shots per enemy to take him out. Shot/kill ratio with the 7.62 in 20 rnd mag will be closer to 1 to 1. Also take into account what a 308 can do to someone hiding behind something. The 308 will/can turn cover into concealment where as the 5.56 will/can not.

Not trying to argue as this is a debate that I am going thru with myself in which caliber/rifle to purchase. I am leaning more towards the 308 in the Springfield Scout rifle.

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Post by cas »

"BATTLE RIFLE. Yes, except I can't expect to ever participate in a trench battle in my lifetime"
My comment about it being a horrible design for a combat weapon was made , obviously because it is our nations main battle rifle, and not directed specifically at you.


Myself, I've gone with the "one of each" method. (at least one of each :wink: )

Not because I'm expecting the worst, but because they're fun. A 12ga pump is a better "bad times" item where I am anyway.
Slow is just slow.
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Post by colo native »

Howja like tha new diggs???
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Post by cas »

That one's been around for quite a while. Bushmaster made one years ago too, which is why I was surprised by the fuss about the H&K and POF uppers.
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Post by gregg »

Thanks cas for reply. Learned more than you would think.
I think its a ok bad times rifle. Its hard to have it all. If I was
mil and had the backing for resupply ya M14 . Then other
side . Street Fight. M4 closer to hand gun with maybe more + than-
Just thoughts
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Post by cas »

Just a point to back up my not liking Oly. Last night I got around to fiddling with the upper I picked up. Went to put the rear sight on the flat top rail.. It barely fits. I had to give it a few love taps with the wooden handle of hammer to get it to go on.

I've had that sight on 4 other uppers, all of different makes, with nary a problem.

Went to mount my dot sight... same thing. Needed to adjust the mount. Their specs are funky.
Slow is just slow.
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