1954 Win 94 bulging cases

[TX30/30]

Howdy All,
My first time posting. A buddy gave me his grandfathers well- worn Winchester 94 in 30/30, pre 64 as mentioned above. It's been used pretty hard.

Shot it today for the first time, it is slightly bulging the cases about 1/3 of the way up from the rim. Around the same place I've seen case-separation on overly reloaded rifle cases.

Fired Case OD goes from .414 just above the rim to .420 at the bulged area. Unfired case OD is .414 in this entire area. Only one part of the case seems to be bulging--ie it is not bulging the entire circumferance of the case, just one side.

I figure if it's bulging cases maybe the chamber has eroded or been worn or something?

Ammo is factory Winchester 150 gr softnose 30/30.

Also the primers are bulged a bit, but I see that on my 68 Marlin 336RC as well when I shoot 150 grain ammo--I think it's just that the cases aren't setting back against the bolt.

Any help is much appreciated. Has anyone else had this problem with these older WInchesters? Or is this thing toast?

If this thing is toast, what does a rebarrel usually cost? I'm in central TX.

Thanks again.

[Pete44ru]

Welcome, TX30/30 !

Yep, yer chamber's toast, alright.

Numrich Arms or one of the other Winchester shops like Bob's Gun Shop (google) might have a good/used barrel for your carbine, and a local gunsmith shouldn't charge too much to rebarrel, as it would most likely be a straight swap, with maybe a little extra for correcting headspace under/over.

.

[Griff]

Welcome, TX30/30 !
Yep, yer chamber's toast, alright.
Numrich Arms or one of the other Winchester shops like Bob's Gun Shop (google) might have a good/used barrel for your carbine, and a local gunsmith shouldn't charge too much to rebarrel, as it would most likely be a straight swap, with maybe a little extra for correcting headspace under/over.
.

I'll second Pete's welcome. But... might not agree with his assessment of your rifle.
Well, not so fast... is it hard to extract? Unless you do a chamber cast, you can't really tell if your chamber is bulged. You might find that it is just that your chamber is .420 at that point, and the case is only expanding to fill the chamber. The standard dimension is .422 at the base of the web tapering to .401 at the edge of the shoulder. Your cartridges might just be held off one side of the chamber by the bolt and can only expand in one direction. I generally find that almost all my .30-30s expand in just this fashion. But... and this is important, there's NO increased effort to extract a fired case over an unfired cartridge. The .30-30 ain't a high pressure round, and expansion on one side of the case is NOT uncommon.

[TX30/30]

Extraction seems very positive, and the extractor tension even seems a bit loose compared to the other 94s I've played with. Did not have any problems whatsoever with sticking.

The only reason I noticed was that I was being extra careful, looking at every single case (they launched over my shoulder fairly far) so look for any signs of oddness, just given that the rifle has seen a bunch of use and a fair bit of neglect.

Also, not all the cases were bulged like that on one side. There was just a pattern on some of them--a bulge that only went part way around the case. But I've just gone back and measured all of the fired cases and the largest one, at the largest dimension, measures .420"

The oddly bulged ones measure between .418 to .419 at most. And the dimension at the shoulder of the fired cases is maybe a half thou under .405, say .4045

Anyway, I'm a grownup, I tinker around in a machine shop, I reload now and again, so I take any and all responsibility for my own decisions and actions. But maybe this rifle ain't toast after all?

[Tycer]

Sounds like you owe your buddy a backstrap off that deer his granpappy's gun is gonna take this fall.

[Griff]

Like I said, I'd do a chamber cast. Maybe 30WCF will chime in. I can't find my chamber dimensions for some reason... (put them where they wouldn't get lost!) So I can't say for certain if your chamber is "out of spec."

I just ain't ready to say your carbine is toast... yet!

You know that PICTURES are helpful. Without careful extraction, to determine if the site of the bulging is at the same place in the chamber... ya just ain't gonna know. That piece of info would be good to know. If the case bulges at the same place in the chamber EVERY time... it'll tell ya one of two things... the chamber is bulged there, or the bolt is holding the case AWAY from the chamber wall at that point. One is bad, the other not so. But, it will lead to short case life... reducing the number of times the case can be resized before it fails at that point due to "overworking".

[KirkD]

I'm on the road right now (in Michigan) but should be home tonight. I have the chamber specs at home. Uneven expansion of the brass in that area is not unusual, provided the final expanded diameter is still less than the factory chamber diameter at that point. I'll see if I can look it up tonight, provided I get home at a decent hour.

[slimster]

http://www.leverguns.com/dimensions/images/3030wcf.jpg Here ya go. Thanks to Paco. Hope this helps.

[Pete44ru]

FWIW, I based my comment on the five different .30-30 rifles I've owned - none of which ever exhibited any fired case bulges.

I can understand an oversize chamber letting an unfired case, lying on it's bottom, expand upon firing, but I would think the expansion would encompass the entire case length, and not a localized bulge.

I think I'm gonna take a "wait & see" attitude on this topic....................

Please let us know what results, TX30/30 - and good luck with your '94.

.

[Charles]

I have seen several Savage bolt 30-30s with a little egg or jug in the chamber that will produce the bulge you discribe. This is just a poor chambering job. I have never seen it on a Winchester, but whose to say, one didn't slip by. I have seen all sorts of defects that have been shipped from a major maker. Then again it may have been a real heavy reload somebody fired in the rifle.

If you are not having extraction problem, then I would not worry about it. You may have to FL size your cases if you reload, but you would do that anyway for a 30-30 levergun.

If you are firing factory ammmo or full snort reloads and getting a little primer backout, most likely you have developed a little excess headspace with an old rifle. This can be corrected several ways, or cured by handloading or just don't worry about it. Watch your cases for the first indication of head stretching and deep six them when it show up. I am talking a little wire feeler on the inside of the case.

[TX30/30]

Wow! You guys have no idea how helpful this has been. Thank you so much. Keep any opinions flowing, of course.

I have never done a chamber cast but never really had an excuse to, either. I will try to dig up some sulfur or something at the store.

The encouraging thing for me is that every single fired case had a diameter--even at the "egged" part--within a quarter thousandth of the .4195 chamber dimension shown in the JPG. The biggest one (which I said was .420) is actually about .41975 or so. And the egged cases are all either .418 or .419 at the egged part--a bit *under* the chamber spec.

Gonna keep the saftey glasses on when I shoot but I think it's time for a little more research at the range, and a chamber cast as well.

[deerwhacker444]

Here's what you need to do a chamber cast.

CerroSafe Chamber Casting Alloy

I've never done it, but it seems to be easy to use. Follow the directions and measure after an hour.

[Marc]

I wouldn't worry about that chamber. Your measurements are within spec. The cases bulge on one side because the brass is thinner on that side. That is very common. Some match shooters go to a lot of trouble to find brass that is perfectly concentric. It doesn't matter to us hunters and more practical sorts.

[JD2]

The bulge that you are noting is also known as the "expansion ring". It is the place where the chamber pressure is finally able to overcome the strength of the brass cartridge case and plastically push the case outward until it is stopped by the chamber wall. It is present to one degree or another on all fired cartridge cases, though since the 30-30 operates at substantially lower pressure than most modern cartridges, the expansion ring tends to be located somewhat more forward than what you would see on say a 270 win. Many handloaders (including me) use the measurement of the expansion ring as a method to gage approximate pressures (Ken Waters, famed author, used this method to develop his loading data.).

Remember, the 94 uses a spring loaded ejector on the bottom of the bolt, which will hold the cartridge slighly front end high in the chamber. so there is more of a "gap" on the bottom side between the cartridge case and the chamber, and therefore you see that the case has expanded more on the bottom side than the top.

It is common to see this type of "bulge" and is especially noticeable if you have a maximum dimension chamber with minimum dimension brass cases. If what you're calling a "bulge" truly were a bulge in the chamber, you would be having definite extraction problems.

It is also possible that your rifle could have an "egg shaped" chamber from a sloppy job of chambering. I have a Remington 700 in 30-06 that has a slightly egg shaped chamber right from the factory... It shoots superbly though, so I don't want to mess with it...

Anyway, my two cents.....

[iceman]

Just for laughs, next time you fire the rifle, extract the round VERY slowly and mark the top of the fired round before it ejects with a marker. If the buldge is 90 deg below the mark, I would say a max chamber, min case and the ejector is keeping the round tilted up. Just an idea and opinion and worth what you paid for it.

[J Miller]

TX30/30,

The pics below show the location of and some normal case expansion:
303 Brit:

303 Brit from Joes Enfield.JPG

The 303 British in the typical military rifle has large chambers.
This pic show the expansion typical in my war time No4 Mk1. This is perfectly normal.

30-30 Win:

9FZ_Primer1_.jpg

This pic show the location of the typical expansion ring on a 30-30 case. As others have said this is normal.

Unless your cases start rupturing I wouldn't worry about it.

Joe

[TX30/30]

Okay great. Extremely informative, everyone...expansion ring.

Again there are no extraction problems whatsoever, and again the extractor tension is even on the loose side, and all the expanded cases (except one) are actually under factory chamber spec dimensions.

I am going to mark the cases next time I go to the range and see which side the bulge is on. If it's on the bottom I'll call it good.

Once again I really appreciate it.

[Malamute]

I'll throw another opinion in with the "it's probably OK" camp. It may be slightly annoying, but not likely a serious issue if you arent splitting cases. Even the slight primer protrusion is fairly common, and is a sign of low pressure. Many guns are in spec as to headspace, but much of the ammo isnt. In other words, much commercial ammo is loose. The brass simply isnt being pushed hard enough back against the bolt face to reseat the primer. The case walls are doing exactly what they are supposed to, gripping the chamber walls. Winchesters also have a fairly strong spring pushing the case forward in the chamber (ejector spring), making the primer protrusion more obvious, and seem like more of an issue than it really is.

If it bothers you, or makes your brass wear out faster, you may get some benefit from having the barrel set back a turn and rechambered. That may be enough, since the chamber is tapered.

[Cast Bullet Hunter]

Go here for case and cartridge dimensions: http://www.leverguns.com/dimensions/images/3030wcf.jpg You will see that approximately 1/2" ahead of the rim the maximum chamber diameter for a new rifle is ca. .420-421. The difference between a new cartridge and a fired one means nothing if the chamber is within tolerance, as yours is. What you have is a chamber on the large side of normal and a cartridge that is on the small side of normal. The case expands on one side because gravity, and the extractor, holds the cartridge toward the bottom of the chamber so it only has one way to expand, all up. The expansion is well forward of the head of the case is because modern .30-30 cases are much stronger than they need to be and there simply isn't enough pressure to expand the base area of the case like a .30-06 or similar cartridge does that operate ay 15,000-18,000psi higher pressure than .30-30. In short, everything is completely normal!

[william iorg]

I am late getting into this conversation but I believe there is nothing wrong with your rifle. The Winchester and the Marlin 336 rifle both have chambers cut with the slight bulge you describe cut on the bottom of the chamber. I have cast a number of these chambers and have measured many pressure rings for case expansion. All lever-action 30-30’s I have examined exhibit this bulge in the chamber I believe as an aid to chambering.

When working at high pressure with the 30-30AI cartridge we noted that most factory new brass was .417” diameter just above the web. As we increased pressure we adopted a stop point on the 30-30AI of .422” measured at the pressure.

For the standard, 30-30 Ken Waters increased his pressure ring measurements to .419” in the standard 30-30 when the cartridges were fired in new manufactured rifles such as the Winchester Model 94AE and Marlin 336 rifles of similar vintage.

It is quite common to see the primers backed out of factory ammunition when the 30-30 cartridge is fired in lever-action rifles. Current 30-30 ammunition is loaded to low pressure and the cartridge case snaps out and grabs the chamber walls and allows the primer to set back against the bolt face. Look on the ground at most rifle ranges during deer season and you will encounter 30-30 rounds exhibiting the backed out primers.

[O.S.O.K.]

Check the fired cases to see if they will chamber regardless of orientation - that is, no matter which way they are rotated in the chamber. If they all chamber, then simply neck size the cases for the next loading. Do this a few times and the brass will match the chamber quite nicely and accuracy should improve too I suspect.

[w30wcf]

TX30-30,
THere is no problem at all with your rifle. Rifle chamber diameters can vary a bit depending on the chambering reamer used.
I have a 336A that will expand cases up to .423" with max loads just forward of the case web.

The reason that the buldge is more pronounced on one side is dependent on the case position in the chamber.
To keep the expansion even around base of the case, cut some .005" (or whatever thickness will work in your rifle) thick tape about 3/32" - 1/8" wide and place it around the case touching the front of the rim. After firing, remove the tape and neck size only. I did that with the cases used in my 336A and it worked very well.

w30wcf

[TX30/30]

Thanks again so much, everyone. This has been incredibly helpful and now I will shoot this rifle with confidence. But I will also mark the cases and see if they are bulging in consistent areas.

I actually wondered if there might be a slight egg at the *top* of the chamber to help in chambering, then I thought that was maybe crazy.

[william iorg]

I intended to say top of the chamber when I originally posted but wrote bottom.
When you ream a chamber to 30-30AI on a Winchester or marlin lever-gun you will see this egg shape at the rear of the chamber. Your reamer will never clean this portion of the chamber.
We have had this discussion several times on the Beartooth bullets forum as we discussed the 30-30AI.
I attached a link to one of the discussions.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... light=oval