Musings from the Miller: Low count mags and butt cuff ammo

[J Miller]

All my life I've heard the hunters say you don't need more than two or three rounds in your rifle. Usually said by bolt action rifle owners but sometimes lever gun owners too.

My preference for full length magazines and the larger capacity they offer has left me open for the old snide put down; "Whatca gonna do fight a war, all you're doin is huntin, you don't need moren one or two bullets for that."
Well me being me I just ignore old pharts that say that and buy what suites me.

Now here on Leverguns there is the same factions: those who prefer the full length magazines, and those who prefer the half or button magazines on their lever guns.
Many of those who prefer the short magazines have said the same thing: "I'm hunting, I don't need moren one or two rounds."

So then why is it I'm seeing more and more photos of bolt action and short magazine lever guns with butt cuffs holding extra ammo?

Example: On page 43 of the September 2010 issue of the American Hunter magazine there's an article about a gal named Samantha Bender who shot a whopper of an elk with her 270 Weatherby Vangard. In the posed pic of her, the elk and the rifle there's a butt cuff on it with 9 rounds of ammo in it. Rifle, 4, butt cuff, 9, = 13 rounds ....... what's she need 13 rounds for, it only took her one to drop the elk?

I'm just waiting for the next levergunner who posts a pic of short magazine lever gun with a butt cuff ammo carrier and says: "I'm just hunting, I don't need any more in the mag." I'm gonna post: "Whatca gonna do fight a war, all you're doin is huntin, you don't need moren one or two bullets for that."

J e

[Blaine]

If I could afford it, I'd hire a gun bearer and have him with an extra rifle and several dozen rounds for each. I usually carry at least 3 knives that could dress the game, and enough fire to last a month. Lately, I've stayed pretty close to the rig, but I could get by two or three days and fight a small war with what I took into the woods for a day

[J Miller]

If I could afford it, I'd hire a gun bearer and have him with an extra rifle and several dozen rounds for each. I usually carry at least 3 knives that could dress the game, and enough fire to last a month. Lately, I've stayed pretty close to the rig, but I could get by two or three days and fight a small war with what I took into the woods for a day

Blaine,
That sounds like me. I can't remember the last time I went out with only the ammo in the gun plus a few in my pocket. Naw, that ain't gonna happen.
That's also why 90% of the time when I carry a rifle and a short gun it's the same caliber. Full rifle mag, full revolver, + what's in my belt loops.

Joe

[airedaleman]

Butt cuffs are in the same category as big, padded, cobra shaped slings. Gimmickry that just adds unnecessary weight, and looks awful.

[Hobie]

I was a soldier. I guess that mentality has stuck and I carry enough for "whatever".

[Streetstar]

last time i went out for rifle season, i used 3 out of 4 rounds in my mag tube --- (2 critters down - one needed a follow up shot)

The only thing left was my sidearm ( a single 6 used for "targets of opportunity) I would have felt more comfortable if i had a small handful of cartridges in my camelback just in case , as i legitimately had a couple more tags to fill if the opportunity presented itself --- but i likely wont be lacing up a butt cuff anytime too soon

[Dave]

Sometimes I do not fill the full length mag on my Marlin 336. It holds 5. I always have an MTM Caseguard ammo wallet with 9 rounds in it in my pack though. I also always have two rounds in my pocket.

While some buttcuffs, like a Milt Sparks brand, are sho' nuff equipment and retain your ammo, I have seen a lot of people using cheap nylon butt cuffs lose rounds out of them particularly if they have the rounds upside down in the loops.

I don't like to carry a lot of stuff but I like to have enough. A friend of mine got slapped in the face by a locust limb one time. The thorn really hurt his eye and he could not get himself out. When we started looking for him we would prowl down the road slow and listen. It was after dark when we passed near him he saw the headlights and he shot three times. We yelled back to let him know we heard him. As we eased down looking for him he fired three times again.

After that incident I started carrying the extra 9 rounds because I realized how important having a few extra rounds could be. We ended up having to take him to a hospital. They then transferred him to another bigger hospital. His eye is OK now though.

[2ndovc]

Some states only allow three or for rounds in a magazine (Ohio being one of them) however I always have at least twenty rounds on me during hunting season. Maybe more.
One bad experience taught me to have "more than enough" ammo with me and will as long as
my days let me hunt.

jb

[AJMD429]

The best advantage of a 'butt cuff' would be if you wanted to have handy several different loads, and just slip the appropriate one in the magazine at the last minute.

Or, on a 'home defense' gun, it would give a bit more 'insurance' you hope you'd never need, plus make the gun more intimidating looking, which could decrease the odds of actually having to use it.

[Ben_Rumson]

Hey Miller .. What if a guy w/full mag & a cuff says he's a hunter...He gets a pass?

[J Miller]

Hey Miller .. What if a guy w/full mag & a cuff says he's a hunter...He gets a pass?

Absolutely. But I'd be curious what he's hunting.

Joe

[jnyork]

Joe, when I read your title, I was filled with consternation, not knowing what a "butt cuff" was. Glad to find this is still a family site.

[RKrodle]

I had a nice leather and elastic butt cuff on 1895 CB that was will made and very functional. It held the ammo tight, so it did not fall out or rattle around. Some times when I go hunting it's spur of the moment, like someone who will go unnamed (86er) pulls up in the yard and says lets go get some meat. It was a handy way to always have ammo with your rifle and ready to go, good for home defense also.


http://www.murraycustomleather.com/shellc-3c.jpg

[adirondakjack]

When I hunt deer, I hunt in some less than open territory. I long ago stopped stoking a levergun. Stuff 4 in the mag, crank one into the chamber, hammer on 1/2 cock, into the woods we go.

Even with the 5 count mauser, 3 or 4 is enough. I NEVER have got off more than two anyway, and that was two from a pump shotgun at a deer somebody else wounded that was trucking hard across in front of me, screened by big pines. Turns out the first round got it, the second missed.....

[Modoc]

Back from a hiatus and throwing an odd one in here. My Hunting levers are both button mag. One is a '94 carbine and the other an '86 extra light. Now that is because I carry them a lot and shoot little plus I like the way they balance and swing. Of course there is a full box of ammo in the pack plus the watch pocket on my jeans is packed tight with reloads too. More a mater of the "feel" of the rifle than the # of rounds carried.

Now all of my Silhouette and CAS levers have a full length magazine on them.

[Paladin]

Been a cop too long, when I go to the woods for whatever reason I carry too much, ammo being part of it. I promise not to make the mistake that cost my buddy a magnum through the neck. "Murphy" gets involved when you least expect it.

[BigSky56]

Joe you want some cheese with that whine give em a break what ever blows their dress up cides my short mag tube guns are 2/3 times more accurate as my fl tube guns. when you get in the back country here 10 miles one way on a horse the last thing Iam going to do is go short handed besides I might want to whack a pack of canines. Those stock cuffs might work for warm zones but get packed full of snow and ice in bad weather, I use a 10 rd belt case that I keep in my daypack which gives me 15 plus my pistol. danny

Welcome Modoc

[Griff]

I hunted with a bolt gun for several years... I carried it with 3 rounds (all it held) in the magazine, and a wallet-sized ammo carrier that held 10 more. One year, (3rd CA deer in 5 years of hunting there), I was on a hillside at about 9700 feet above sea level. I shot a 3x4 muley at about 350 yards across a ravine with my second shot. The deer jumped and ran behind some brush. My partner (6 years my junior), ran across the ravine and hollered for me to cross over and finish the deer. It was about 400' to the bottom of the ravine and maybe 250 back up the other side to where the deer had hidden. I ran down and up the other side. When I got there I was heaving so hard, just to breathe I couldn't hold the scope on the deer at the 25yards I was standing. I tried to hand my partner my rifle... "no way, there might be a Game Warden around..." So I proceeded to put 10 rounds in the dirt around that hapless deer! Finally, on my last shot... I put another thru the heart.

Yep, the first round had clipped the heart, and all the shots following that one didn't change the fact that the deer was going to expire. Luckily, I learned from that experience.

You can't ever have too much ammo.

[2X22]

Too wet around here for a leather butt cuff, but I gotta admit, I pack more shells than I used to. My turning point was when I got into a pack of wild dogs with just a SA pistol and 5 beans in the wheel, looking at 7 snarling slobbering dogs. Luckily after 3 were down the rest weren't quite as fiesty and left the scene of the crime. I learned in the blink of an eye that more shells are better than less.

Plus, the wife was with me and from then on I was required to pack at least a short levergun to go along with my pistol, to make her feel better. I gotta admit, filling the tube all the way when we headed out made me feel as good as it did her

2x22

[fordwannabe]

Most, not all but most, of my leverguns have a butt cuff/cheekpiece made for me by 7xleather out of Montana. I use scopes on my levers cause otherwise my shooting would have to stop at 50 yards(can't see). I have a half mag, several full mags, a button mag and a rotary mag. I fill using the state mandated 3 ,but I alway have a few extra cause of the cuffs and with the design Wes made my eye is at the perfect height for the scopes. I like my cuff/cheek pieces and Wes' work is top notch. Tom

[Mac in Mo]

I've been using the elastic butt cuffs for 20 plus years on all of my hunting rifles. I don't care what they look like, I'm not modeling for a fashion magazine. They are black and seem to blend in anyway. The point is they work for me. I have never lost a round. I insert the cartridge so that the rim is inside the loop and this works to hold them in. I have also carried extra revolver ammo in these same cuffs. I also have extra ammo in a wallet in the pack. I've never been one to pick my gear based on some jokers comments. I do however, listen when someone has something useful to say, and knows what he's talking about. Kevin

[adirondakjack]

I suspect many of us who go afield with low round counts were raised by children of the depression. My dad used to buy .22 shells 3 for 2 cents, shotshells individually, and later, when I was 13 or so, old enough to hunt squirrels in the woods across the road alone, he'd dole out maybe 5 rounds of .22s (he never had more than maybe 2 boxes at a time). if I asked for more, (which I only did once) he would say "get a job, then you can carry a whole box if you like".

[KCSO]

I kinda started hunting in a place called mantrap valley. If you went in you had better know how to get back out and if you got hurt in there you were on your own. I learned to carry a small pack for just in case, every time. I still don't go anywhere into the wods without fod, fire and ammo, if I have to bring it all back out again that's ok by me but IF i need it I have it.

[madman4570]

Mine is a weird sort of deal?
Call it superstition I guess.
5 loaded in the Deerslayer and 2 sets of 3 slugs each set rubber banded together and with each set placed in front of each pants pocket for a total full count of 11
I know----------strange! Normally I dont do a lot of weird stuff like that, but with this I feel its good luck!
But after 38 deer killed with this gun and the ammo carried this way------------who's to say?

I keep thinking -----why do I have all the other Deerslayers then? In case the first one ever wears out!

[hfcable]

from way back the short mags, esp button mags had the reputation of being more accurate than full length mags, and better handling/balanced; Paco has commented on this. it was a common belief before the year 1900 and special order guns like that were common. i think it is true, but what do i know, it is based on a couple of dozen lever guns that i have shot a lot. on many forums [ ie the marlin forum] this idea/myth is perpetuated.. the marlin 30 KT, a modern short mag marlin 30/30, has dozens of witnesses claiming it outshoots any other marlin 30/30 they have or ever have had. [ none of them seems to make the connection [ if one ] with the short mag. ]
my 1886 45/70 has the button mag, so i have 4 rounds total [ one in chamber] available o me, even when i am hunting in the immediate proximity of very large bears. this is probably stupid on my part! but there it is, and it sure is accurate, fast handling well balanced ........and dang it ! it just looks right to me!

[adirondakjack]

from way back the short mags, esp button mags had the reputation of being more accurate than full length mags, and better handling/balanced; Paco has commented on this. it was a common belief before the year 1900 and special order guns like that were common. i think it is true, but what do i know, it is based on a couple of dozen lever guns that i have shot a lot. on many forums [ ie the marlin forum] this idea/myth is perpetuated.. the marlin 30 KT, a modern short mag marlin 30/30, has dozens of witnesses claiming it outshoots any other marlin 30/30 they have or ever have had. [ none of them seems to make the connection [ if one ] with the short mag. ]
my 1886 45/70 has the button mag, so i have 4 rounds total [ one in chamber] available o me, even when i am hunting in the immediate proximity of very large bears. this is probably stupid on my part! but there it is, and it sure is accurate, fast handling well balanced ........and dang it ! it just looks right to me!

I dunno if the button mag itself makes em more accurate, but if ya "short charge" a full length mag yer not putting weight up front that goes away as ya use up rounds, so vertical stringing ought to be less an issue.

[hfcable]

Paco says the lack of the front hanger for the magazine and the lack of pressure there, lets the barrel resonate more freely.....i think that was the idea. it seems to be true in my little experience. as well as what you mentioned, which could be a very significant factor

[adirondakjack]

Paco says the lack of the front hanger for the magazine and the lack of pressure there, lets the barrel resonate more freely.....i think that was the idea. it seems to be true in my little experience. as well as what you mentioned, which could be a very significant factor

All that makes sense I guess. That long tube with a spring inside that also "rings" upon firing ain't doin ya any favors in the group department. But I use these guns with irons, and don't have the same expectations I do from a scoped bolt gun or model 88

[MrMurphy]

I'm not much of a hunter, but I was a military cop. Any time I'm in the field with a weapon, sufficient ammo to survive a while is with me. A pistol? At least 2 spare mags.

Rifle? My .44 Marlin holds 10, I keep an extra 20+ on me most of the time if it's with me. Sometimes a whole box of .50 (i'm usually carrying a ruck so it's not a big deal).

If I have my AR and am specifically out hunting (hogs/coyotes) i'll have 3 full 30 rounds mags, because I never carry an AR with anything less. Perfectly legal here and with the high probability of hog herds, as opposed to solo hogs, they do come in handy from what others have told me.

Will i ever use all that extra ammo? Probably not. But i'm used to carrying it and I don't mind.

[hfcable]

i too carry a lot of extra ammo....cant hurt to have it can it? just seems prudent...for the unexpected. i just dont have it hooked into my lever gun, but on detachable magazine weapons i carry several extras, no matter where i am going.

[vanilla_gorilla]

The only times there's such a thing as too much ammo is when you're drowning or on fire.

I make sure to carry enough ammo to get me through any potential issues, should I stumble onto another pot farm or a meth lab. Add to that I'm never in the woods without one of my pistolas.

[gamekeeper]

The only times there's such a thing as too much ammo is when you're drowning or on fire.

[/i]

[Old Ironsights]

The best advantage of a 'butt cuff' would be if you wanted to have handy several different loads, and just slip the appropriate one in the magazine at the last minute.

Or, on a 'home defense' gun, it would give a bit more 'insurance' you hope you'd never need, plus make the gun more intimidating looking, which could decrease the odds of actually having to use it.

'swhat I do.

Normally my '92 is loaded up with 158gr OEM or 158gr LSWCHP, but the butt cuff carries 180gr WFN whompumstompers....