OT (sorta) -- grizzly killed with .45 pistol

[new pig hunter]

here's something for debate ..... we've all read much about hunting rifles, power ratings, under-gunned, over-gunned, big caliber, small caliber, Taylor numbers .....

here's a couple of people undoubtedly lucky to be in one piece .....


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outpost ... enali.html

Backpacker shoots and kills grizzly bear in Denali National Park

A backpacker shot and killed a grizzly bear in Denali National Park and Preserve on Friday after the animal charged toward his hiking companion. This is the first shooting incident since a change in federal law that allows firearms to be carried in many national parks and wildlife refuges went into effect in February.

This is also the first known shooting of a grizzly bear in the wilderness portion of the park by a visitor.

According to park spokeswoman Kris Fister, the backpackers were hiking in an area about 35 miles from park headquarters when they heard noise in nearby brush. The male hiker drew a .45-caliber pistol he was carrying, and when the bear emerged and charged toward his female hiking companion, he fired about nine rounds toward the grizzly.

The bear returned to the brush, at which point the hikers headed back the way they came, until meeting a park employee and reporting the incident.

Since it was unclear if the animal was killed or only wounded, the area was immediately closed to other hikers. The bear's carcass was discovered Saturday evening by park rangers near where the shooting took place.

[66GTO]

From the linked article:

According to the press release issued by Fister, it is legal to carry a firearm in the original Mt. McKinley portion of the park where the incident occurred, but it is not legal to discharge it.

[pshort]

Howdy,
There's a serious shortage of information here:
Was that a short .45, medium .45 or a long .45?

Paul

flame suit nearby.......

[mikld]

9 shots? Prolly a semi...

[J Miller]

Most likely a Para Ordnance P14.

Joe

[Chas.]

Howdy,
There's a serious shortage of information here:
Was that a ...long .45?

Ain't no such thing.

[jeepnik]

Howdy,
There's a serious shortage of information here:
Was that a ...long .45?

Ain't no such thing.

Okay, let's get this 45 name thing straight once and for all. The best current source on cartridge name / history is Cartridges of the World 11th edition.

So, here are the listed names for 45 cartridges
45 Winchester Magnum
45 Glock Auto Pistol
45 Automatic Colt Pistol
455 revolver MkII / 455 Webley Revolver MkII
45 Smith & Wesson / 45 S&W Schofield)
45 Colt
455 Webley Automatic
455 Revolver MkI / .455 Solt / .455 Enfield
45 Webley
45 Automatic Rim
45 Automatic Short
45 Colt / 45 Colt Government
45 Revolver / 450 Adams

So, there it is. Ain't no 45 Long Colt.

[pshort]

Howdy,
I knew that, I was just stirring the pot............

Paul

[TedH]

From the linked article:

According to the press release issued by Fister, it is legal to carry a firearm in the original Mt. McKinley portion of the park where the incident occurred, but it is not legal to discharge it.

That seemed like an intelligent law to me too. You reckon you're supposed to just pistol whip the bears?

[Mike D.]

So, when is his arraignment? Aren't they gonna severely punish the guy for "abusing" a bear that was protecting it's turf?

[KirkD]

The report I heard on the Canadian news was that it was a 45 semi-automatic. I'm thinking it was 45 ACP. On the other hand, news reporters don't always get it right, as hard as it is to believe.

[Bigahh]

Howdy,
There's a serious shortage of information here:
Was that a ...long .45?

Ain't no such thing.

Okay, let's get this 45 name thing straight once and for all. The best current source on cartridge name / history is Cartridges of the World 11th edition.

So, here are the listed names for 45 cartridges
45 Winchester Magnum
45 Glock Auto Pistol
45 Automatic Colt Pistol
455 revolver MkII / 455 Webley Revolver MkII
45 Smith & Wesson / 45 S&W Schofield)
45 Colt
455 Webley Automatic
455 Revolver MkI / .455 Solt / .455 Enfield
45 Webley
45 Automatic Rim
45 Automatic Short
45 Colt / 45 Colt Government
45 Revolver / 450 Adams

If I am not mistaken, and I might be, you are missing the only 1 that matters, and the only revolver I will ever need to own.. The .454 Casull, all the others do not matter to me.

[Chas.]

Okay, let's get this 45 name thing straight once and for all. The best current source on cartridge name / history is Cartridges of the World 11th edition.

So, here are the listed names for 45 cartridges
.
.
45 Automatic Colt Pistol
.
.

I think that's 45 Automatic Centerfire Pistol?

[CJM]

I think that's 45 Automatic Centerfire Pistol?

Nope, it's Automatic Colt Pistol, 25, 32, 38 and 45 ACP; all developed in concert with JMB as he designed his early auto pistols for Colt.

[Joel]

No .45 super?



So I guess this goes to show, bears are not bulletproof after all.


Am I the only one who kind of feels sorry for the bear? People scurry out into bear country by the thousands, for recreation. Arming themselves just in case the bears who live where they want to hike, act like bears and charge. I wonder if the shooter knew the difference between a bluff charge and the real deal?

I am jaded, a big fan of bears, I always cheer for the bears the few times they actually eat somebody.

[Chas.]

I think that's 45 Automatic Centerfire Pistol?

Nope, it's Automatic Colt Pistol, 25, 32, 38 and 45 ACP; all developed in concert with JMB as he designed his early auto pistols for Colt.

I'll bet Smith & Wesson wouldn't agree.

[Beaker]

Maybe it was a .45 King Size or 100's.

[TedH]

No .45 super?



So I guess this goes to show, bears are not bulletproof after all.


Am I the only one who kind of feels sorry for the bear? People scurry out into bear country by the thousands, for recreation. Arming themselves just in case the bears who live where they want to hike, act like bears and charge. I wonder if the shooter knew the difference between a bluff charge and the real deal?

I am jaded, a big fan of bears, I always cheer for the bears the few times they actually eat somebody.

How much time have you spent in bear country? I suppose you would only arm yourself with your vast knowledge of bears? Sometimes these encounters are avoidable, sometimes they are not.

Don't get me wrong, I love bears and hate to see these kinds of incidents too, but I'm not one of these people that put a bears life at the same value as a humans. Not even close.

I doubt you would be cheering for the bear if it was you, or perhaps your child it was chewing on at the time.

[JohndeFresno]

Okay, let's get this 45 name thing straight once and for all. The best current source on cartridge name / history is Cartridges of the World 11th edition...So, here are the listed names for 45 cartridges...

"Cartridges of the World," 10th Edition, Pg. 391 under Factory Ballistics table for "45 Colt / 45 Colt Government" - probably unchanged in the 11th Ed. which I don't have:

"*QuickLOAD estimated data. Semi-ballon head sample, headstamped 'REM-UMC' over '45 COLT;' slightly rounded primer stamped 'U,' 255-grain RNFP bullet appears to match bullets used in original 45 (Long) Colt loads." (Highlighting was mine)
...hehehehe...

[Hankster]

This is a copy of a post I did on a Missouri CCW website I frequent, kind of a Smart a$$ed look at the Feds, and their RIDICULOUS stances sometimes....like in this case

It's legal to carry firearms in that area of the park but illegal to discharge them.

So, you can HAVE protection on you, but just don't USE IT???? What kind of idiotic GOV nonsence THAT???? Let me guess.. THIS is what the GOV plan is when attacked by a man killing/eating BEAR...

>>> Let me guess... the official Govt. Protocol is.....

You See a Grizzly bear.
Bear decides to charge/want to eat you....
You Call Ranger station
Ranger says he'll check, put's you on hold...
Ranger consults rulebook to see if it is ok at this point to discharge the firearm to not be eaten...
Ranger then calls in two other rangers for consensus on "justifiable discharge of a weapon"...
Rangers concur, it's ok "this time" to fire weapon.....
Ranger goes back to phone to give you permission to shoot...
(Ranger) .. Hello?? Hello?? Anyone there still???
Ranger hears munching sounds in background.....
Ranger says, OOOPs! Never Mind.... and hangs up phone.

Or Normal, COMMON SENSE protocol.....

Bear sees you, and attacks....
BAM! BAMBAMBAMBAM!!!
Problem solved....


Dial 911 and......... idiots....

[jeepnik]

Howdy,
There's a serious shortage of information here:
Was that a ...long .45?

Ain't no such thing.

Okay, let's get this 45 name thing straight once and for all. The best current source on cartridge name / history is Cartridges of the World 11th edition.

So, here are the listed names for 45 cartridges
45 Winchester Magnum
45 Glock Auto Pistol
45 Automatic Colt Pistol
455 revolver MkII / 455 Webley Revolver MkII
45 Smith & Wesson / 45 S&W Schofield)
45 Colt
455 Webley Automatic
455 Revolver MkI / .455 Solt / .455 Enfield
45 Webley
45 Automatic Rim
45 Automatic Short
45 Colt / 45 Colt Government
45 Revolver / 450 Adams

If I am not mistaken, and I might be, you are missing the only 1 that matters, and the only revolver I will ever need to own.. The .454 Casull, all the others do not matter to me.

Didn't include it because it is a .454. I figure most folks won't confuse that with all the cartridges that have .45 in their name. I included the British two and three digit names cuz I think they have neat names. Most of the cartridges aren't all that hot by today's standards, but the names sure sound good.

[vancelw]

I think that's 45 Automatic Centerfire Pistol?

Nope, it's Automatic Colt Pistol, 25, 32, 38 and 45 ACP; all developed in concert with JMB as he designed his early auto pistols for Colt.

I'll bet Smith & Wesson wouldn't agree.

Why wouldn't S&W agree? Please explain, you're trying to confuse me

Are you saying S&W would not chamber a gun in a caliber that bore another mfg name, so they would try to rewrite the facts??

I feel sorry for the bear,too. Hikers should go into the national parks, knowing they are taking a chance with the bears. Shooting two-legged predators is okay, and shooting bears on your own property is okay, but every bear shot in a national park was shot in his own home. How would we like that??

[fordwannabe]

Just a question from a guy who spent a little time in big bear country, why do almost all of these situations say "he and his girlfriend were" hiking, camping, blah blah blah. People need to realize a bear is a bear and (not to be indelicate but) at certain times certain folk shouldn't go in the bears area. When i lived in Montana we heard about bears attacking couples all the time,while the women were having their cycle and it killed a few people. Survival of the fittest and smartest is at work here. At least he had a gun and knew how to use it. Tom

[Malamute]

There's been some discussion of this on other boards. Last I looked, (week ago?) there wasn't an in depth description of the results of investigation of the cicumstances. A couple of Alaskan posters questioned if the guy needed to shoot the bear, or just over reacted to seeing one up close, and perhaps posturing behaviour.

Just because you are afraid, or "uncomfortable" with a bear close by doesnt mean you can shoot it. Sorry if that upsets anyone, but that's the law, in Alaska, and the lower 48 states. If you choose to shoot, you need to have a good reason, and be prepard for someone to not believe you. That's just life. Making comments on public forums stating that you would shoot any bear that comes close to you simply because "they crossed your line" is stating that you intend to break state and federal law (not that that has been the case in this thread, but I've seen it several times elsewhere). If you arent able to cope with bears being around, then perhaps Kansas is a good place to hang out. I've lived in bear country for many years. Yes, there are occasional problems, but nothing like many seem to think, and every bear you see, or find yourself close to isn't out to get you. Being a bear isnt a capital offense. I carry daily, but have not had to shoot any bears. I do know a couple guys that have, but the situation was very clear in each event, not just being "uncomfortably close" to a bear, even a curious or posturing bear. Some people just simply freak out when they are close to bears. That isn't a good enough reason to shoot one.

The discusion of the "carry but no shooting" law is a bit ridiculous. It isnt "govt nonsense", nor is it any different than any town you carry in. Yes, you can carry, no you can't shoot for fun or recreation. If an emergency arises, you deal with it. I've never heard of anyone being charged for discharging a firearm within city limits in a self defense situation. It may have happened, but if you truly need to shoot, that charge is the least of your problems. The discussion of the matter is just plain __________(edited for niceness), sorry if that offends anyone. I didnt look at names of posters, so don't take it personal.

[kimwcook]

I agree with what you're saying, Malamute. But, a lot of people that go woods tromping don't have a clue when it comes to the difference between a black bear and a grizzly, let alone a bluff charge or real one. And, me personally, will not be carrying a 45 ACP in known bear country.

[Malamute]

A good post borrowed from another board

kodiakbeer
Senior Member


Join Date: April 10, 2010
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 581

Quote:
"But, as has been pointed out, the only way to tell whether a bear is making a false charge is when he doesn't eat you at the end of it."


You've got it kind of bass-ackwards. If you WANT a grizzly to charge - run!

As for telling the difference between a false charge and a real attack, ask any Alaskan - or just read this thread.

I don't know if the woman running set off the charge, but that's a pretty common scenario. A good friend of mine was fly-fishing a few years back right here at the edge of town in the Buskin river. A brownie appeared on the opposite shore. My friend was in the water and his wife was behind him on the bank. He said something like "There's a bear over there, so don't run away but just walk slowly to the car and get in." Whereupon she immediately screamed and ran to the car. The bear lunged into the water and immediately charged - my friend started yelling (holding his ground) and the bear pulled up short and departed.

He stopped taking her fishing and had no further trouble with bears. The bottom line is that your behavior almost always dictates the bears behavior. If you aren't willing to learn that, or don't have the testicular fortitude to carry it through, then you shouldn't go into grizzly country.

I'll remind readers again, that much of coastal Alaska has a grizzly density of about 1 per square mile. Even in the interior, they're quite common and you'll run into them on a regular basis. You will end up in jail or with a heavy fine if you panic and shoot every time you see a bear.

[Malamute]

I agree with what you're saying, Malamute. But, a lot of people that go woods tromping don't have a clue when it comes to the difference between a black bear and a grizzly, let alone a bluff charge or real one. And, me personally, will not be carrying a 45 ACP in known bear country.

Yes, that is part of the problem. Reading Kodiakbeers post also points out another issue, people have much to do with bears behaviour as anything. As someone mentioned, couples had problems in Mt (I havent heard about those situations especially "all the time", even listening to Mt radio for the past 20 years). I'm not so sure it was neccesarily the women having their period so much as reacting badly to a close encounter. Screaming and/or running is not the right thing to do, and will in fact cause an attack in many instances. If someone can't handle being close to bears without reacting badly, they simply have no business being out where bears are. The bear shouldnt have to pay the price for a persons inability to control themselves, or their refusal to educate themselves, even in the most basic sense, about bears.

Bears aren't cuddly Disney characters, but neither are they bloodthirsty monsters looking for poor innocent humans to pounce on.

[Joel]

How much time have you spent in bear country? I suppose you would only arm yourself with your vast knowledge of bears? Sometimes these encounters are avoidable, sometimes they are not.

Don't get me wrong, I love bears and hate to see these kinds of incidents too, but I'm not one of these people that put a bears life at the same value as a humans. Not even close.

I doubt you would be cheering for the bear if it was you, or perhaps your child it was chewing on at the time.

My child won't be in bear country until he is old enough to fend for himself and make his own decisions. If he wants to tromp out where grizz lives, knowing he may have to kill a bear for acting like bears act, thats on him. Ive spent many an hour guiding the Archery seasons in Grizz country, no guns allowed. Hiked all over Yellowstone countless times, armed only with a pack rod, seen hundreds of Grizz, never had to kill one with my 5 weight.

Its one thing if a bear is coming to your house where you live. But when we go to their homes, we should take that into consideration. How often do we see the question "I'm a going camping, what gun do I need to stop a bear?" . Sucks to be the bear that has the misfortune of smelling the bacon sizzling first thing in the morn.

[Nath]

Over here it is usually refered to 45 Long Colt. Then the 45 ACP.

Nath.

[samb]

Just a question from a guy who spent a little time in big bear country, why do almost all of these situations say "he and his girlfriend were" hiking, camping, blah blah blah. People need to realize a bear is a bear and (not to be indelicate but) at certain times certain folk shouldn't go in the bears area. When i lived in Montana we heard about bears attacking couples all the time,while the women were having their cycle and it killed a few people. Survival of the fittest and smartest is at work here. At least he had a gun and knew how to use it. Tom

Amen Tom,
Couldn't agree more with your post, it was the same thing in the Yukon, with starry eyed city couplesfrom down south, up hiking around national parks, unarmed at that time of the month. The bear allway's mauled the gal. I don't go walking in grizzly country if I cannot carry a gun.....period. Thus I only visit Banff park for a Latte, and only hike national park trails that have at least one person every square meter.

[edsguns]

I agree with what you're saying, Malamute. But, a lot of people that go woods tromping don't have a clue when it comes to the difference between a black bear and a grizzly, let alone a bluff charge or real one. And, me personally, will not be carrying a 45 ACP in known bear country.

So.... what you're saying (trying to read between the very vague lines here) is that "some" people should not be in the wilds alone because they might not know the difference between a black and grizzly (brown) bear. And, most certainly should NOT carry a .45 ACP since it would not work as a self defense weapon (from a black or grizzly bear) for someone who doesn't know as much as you about bears. But, the .45 ACP apparently did just as the hiker hoped it would; turned a "charge" and killed a bear that was threatening a loved one.

Interesting posting there Mr. kimwcook

(For the record, I may not be the expert you are reference bears ((both black and grizzly)) but I have just returned from a 9 day trip to the Alaskan bush, living in a spike camp, over 100 miles from a road in bear filled country, without a guide).

[tman]

up close the .45acp. is probablly as effective as a .454 or something bigger. if you are carrying something bigger it may appear to the law that you are hunting. the 45 acp is a good choice in this situation.

[onelegtom]

New kid on the block here... love the banter... gotta get me one o' them .45 Longs... (Ha!)

I am an ol backpacker from way back... never packed anything stronger than 5 test in a spinning rod (tho the lures were sometimes bigger than a .45 Long).

I reside in the northwest where there are few moose and grizzly sightings.

I run with dogs (please note the name... one leg tom denotes I am an amputee but I can and will run when needed).

I do not care to be eaten by anyone... but worse would be to be mauled to near death... and worse than that would be to witness a loved one going through either scenario.

One of our leaders stated that the press does not have to print the facts... this was back in the 80's (when I was in the media... part of why I got out) (I like the saying - Ride straight, speak straight, shoot straight.)

We do not know the hiker's experience... or the scenario... did the woman scream and run away... did the bear posture but would have run away if stood down... were the fatal shots in the back... was the man firing from fear for his/her life, from excitement, or was he just being an arrogant bastard believing his rights were to prove machismo with a tool which made him the superior... ? We may never know the full story. Perhaps there was an autopsy done on the bear. Perhaps the hiker has a track record... maybe good, maybe bad.

I enjoy the input of the whole of the group. Not knowing all of you, I do not know your personal lens... where you are coming from... what your background is... but I am happy to sit back and listen (er, read).

I am shopping, trying to learn what might prevent a bad situation for me and my team.

I have a sled team of Samoyed... they are very vociferous... and love to posture. Not good against a griz who will probably perceive them as wolves who he/she can chase away... not understanding what a sled team is. Another problem is the moose who tries to scatter the pack and gets its antlers tangled in the line. Usually fatal to the whole team.

I will not be going out on unknown, untraveled trails at first... but I do not want to witness my kids whom I brought into the world suffer any fate like this... I also do not want to cause suffering to any animal in its home. That said, I will shoot, cut, bite... what ever it takes to protect my family. I would prefer to posture and stand down... but my pack cannot climb a tree. They can only look like a pack of wolves... in deep snow I may not be able to get ahead of them to posture. It may come down to my next option. If there is no time to try noise... warning shot (does that even work... or would that just cause more anger?).

Decisions ~ Which Rifle, Lever Action, with glove ring of substantial velocity and power with a side arm for backup.

I have heard several suggestions for the long gun. Stopping a grizzly in a charge most suggest a .45-70 and the other was a 300 mag.

I have heard that the 454 cassule (sp?) is the only legal hand gun to be used against grizzly in AK.

Please share thoughts on Rifle, Handgun, Ammo, and thoughts about why you would choose this?

(Oh, a note: There was a grizzly shot and killed in WY after it had attacked a hiker. Seems they had a duel with fly rods... and the two legger lost... just kidding. But, the bear had just been tranquilized and tagged shortly before... guess he woke up with a bad hangover and a vengeance for whoever might have poked him... I am sure his family misses him... and the bear misses another huckleberry season... sorry, don't know how to put it better.)

Thanks ~ Tom

[Malamute]

Tom, so far as I know, there isnt any law in Ak about what you can carry as a bear pistol (for protection), tho to "hunt" there may be some lower limits. I seriously doubt if it would be 454. Many guys there carry and use 44's. It may be interesting for you to hang around the Alaska Outdoors forum some.

Yes, a guy was killed by a bear in Wy last week. The words are flying right now, but what has surfaced at this point is that he seems to have known the bear was caught and they were doing research work on him and gave him a radio collar. It also seems that he ignored warnings to stay out of the area, it was signed all over that they had a bear that was trapped and being released, and he may have even avoided the Game and Fish people on their way out from the trapping site to go see the bear.

Moose can be very hard on sled dog teams, or dogs in general (some in Ak have said that moose seem to hate dogs and wolves, and kill them whenever they can). Bears can be hard on teams occasionally also. A 45-70 in a light carbine is nice to have, but being able to shoot well whatever you have is more important than the caliber, to a degree. A 44 mag carbine with decent solid bullet loads, 45-70, or any of the medium caliber lever rounds will all do what needs to be done. If you are a cool hand and good shot, a 30-30 will do it. I don't recall the mans name, but the book "Crusoe of Lonesome Lake" was written about his life in BC Canada in the first half of the 1900's. He is said to have stopped counting at 50, the grizzlies he killed with a Winchester 30-30 carbine, and a Remington model 8 or 81 in 35 Rem caliber. He mostly head shot them at close range from what I understand.

I have no problem with shooting a bear or anything else that truly needs it, but I believe that often folks don't act real smart, and could save themselves a lot of trouble just by learning some about the critters around them, and making good decisions. Sometimes the trouble ends up being fatal for the person. There are bad bears, just like bad people, but we also can have some bearing on how things go much of the time.

For myself, tho I don't dog sled, I carry a 4" 44 Smith, or a Ruger 45 with 4 5/8" barrel on my belt whenever out, and generally some sort of long gun. 30-30 some in summer and open country (not generally bear country), 30-06, 348, 45-70, 35 Whelen, and 375 H&H all get to go for walks also.

I don't have any large loop levers, If my gloved hand doesnt fit in the lever, I leave the pinky finger out of the lever, or grab the lever from around the bottom of it. That even works with mittens, but it's hard to get a decent trigger pull with mittens on. It can be done, but it's, well, it's sort of like trying to shoot with mittens on.

[FWiedner]

Men have a right to defend themselves, and so do bears.

I'm thinking he could have multiplied the fun quotient of this whole occurance and just checked to see if he could outrun the girl.

It'd be an interesting experiment in pair bonding to see it he could talk his way back into favor by asking something like "Are you OK?"

[BigSky56]

Malamute, I just finished reading about ralph edwards His wife killed a kodiak bear at 100 yds with one 30-30 to the chest. Its a good book to read about life in the backcountry. danny

[Steve Collins]

This whole thing sounds like a good argument for the three S rule: shoot, shovel, and shut up!