Help me recreate the .38 Special FBI load...

[N40W111]

I would like know if anyone knows the ACTUAL load stats for the "FBI" load in .38 Special. I know it is a 158 gr. lead hollow point. I shoot (and have a ton of) 158 gr. lead semi wadcutters (no hollow points) but I would like to know if the original FBI load can be recreated using MY bullet and Unique powder (which I also have a ton of)?
I'm interested because I love the LSWC for CCW but I've not been as happy with the power level of my reloads.
I have read and own several load manuals but I can find no mention of the actual stats for the original load.

Can anyone give me some help to recreate this classic load?

[Terry Murbach]

DO YOU HAVE A CHRONOGRAPH ???

PS: I JUST CHECKED THE FIRST LOADING MANUAL I HAD AT HAND AND FIND THE FIRST TEN LOADS WITH THEIR 158gr BULLETS DUPLICATE THE SO-CALLED "FBI LOAD".

THE SO-CALLED "FBI LOAD" HAS BEEN LOADED FOR THE PAST 50+ YEARS BY EVERYONE.
THE INTEREESTING PART IS THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT BEING FROM TOTALLY DIFFERENT COMPANIES.
THE ONLY SECRET NOW IS, WHAT DOES THE FACTORY LOADS DO IN YOUR PISTOLS ??
THE BEST OF THE SO-CALLED "FBI LOADS" WAS DONE BY CORBON, NOTHING ELSE WAS EVEN BREATHING IT'S DUST; NOTHING !!!

[N40W111]

Actually, I don't have a chronograph. I failed to mention I shoot a S&W Model 438 Bodyguard snub. I realize that the FBI load is basically a LSWCHP loaded to +P velocities. I am just having trouble getting the "ooph" out of my handloads...they seem wimpy compared to factory Remington 125 gr. jacketed +p loads I have purchased and shot in the same cylinder as my reloads. I have been loading using 5.49 grs. (using 2 x .3 cc Lee dipper) of Unique under a 158 gr. LSWC. What I am wondering is if maybe I AM actually creating the original FBI +P load (but with LSWCs) and not realizing it?
I've been reloading for several years...but what am I missing here?

[Blaine]

Unless you think you'll be shooting thru a windshield, perhaps the 158s (especially since you do not have HPs) are not the best personal protection round....just my cent and a half, but something like a Winchester 130gr Platinum Tip JHP (sort of a Black Talon copy) would be better at stopping, unless, like I say, you would need super penetration of wall or something before striking the target.

[N40W111]

I see your point, Blaine, and it's a good one. It's just that I have a stockpile of components (Unique and semi wadcutters) and I want to maximize the load using these in a snubbie.
From everything I have read in my Alliant Powder guide, I'm pushing a 158 gr. lead semiwaddie about as hard as I can...actually I'm over max. according to them.

I edited my above post to note that after rechecking my facts that the factory rounds I used as comparisons were Remington 125 gr. jacketed +p. I guess I didn't realize that I am trying to compare apples to cucumbers. Those 125 gr. +p's really wake you up and set you back in snubbie. I guess I thought that the 158 grainers would be more punishing but the 125 gr. seem like howitzer shells out the the snubbie. I, of course, realize the velocity would be more but they seem to hit a ton harder than the 158's.

Pardon me for rambling...I appreciate any and all comments.

[Blaine]

I see your point, Blaine, and it's a good one. It's just that I have a stockpile of components (Unique and semi wadcutters) and I want to maximize the load using these in a snubbie.
From everything I have read in my Alliant Powder guide, I'm pushing a 158 gr. lead semiwaddie about as hard as I can...actually I'm over max. according to them.

No need to push it past a published load recommendation... You're target is not going to notice the difference of 100fps

[N40W111]

See my edited post above.
Is there a better powder for full house +P (with LSWCs) than Unique? Maybe it's more a matter of powder choice than bullet weight. Unique is pretty fast powder, do I need a slower burning powder to duplicate the factory round results? I'm giving my Unique rounds a pretty stout crimp..just wondering.

[J Miller]

N40W111,

In leau of a chronograph there is a couple ways you can go about this.

First, purchase a couple boxes of the 158gr SWCHPs and shoot them from your revolver. Shoot them at several different ranges and get an idea of the trajectory. You'll also get a feel for the load itself.

Second, find the ballistics information in the factories catalogs. Winchester is very good for this.

Third, Look over all the reloading data you can find and use the data that matches the ammo makers specs the closest.

That is what I did when I started hand loading. I still don't have a chronograph, although I want one.

It's been my experience that the powder companies such as Alliant are very conservative on their data. I've found that Winchester is very good for duplicating factory loads. Every caliber I shoot has at least one of my most favorite loads made using Winchester powder and data and they match the Winchester factory loads almost perfectly.

Joe

[N40W111]

Great ideas, Joe.

[Arminius]

I think that Unique is right.

Especially in a Snubbie!

But I would use the LSWC for training, loaded to non + P!

For defensive use I would want a PBWC or a HPLSWC or HPL Bullet.

Leading is irrelevant with that load, if you get 10 reasonably accurate rounds, that´s all that´s neccesary.

If you cant´get a HP mould or HP bullets, consider a Forster´s Hollow Pointer attachment to their Case trimmer. Question is, do you "hollow point" the bullets or the loaded rounds?

"head scratching"

Hermann

[FF1063]

See my edited post above.
Is there a better powder for full house +P (with LSWCs) than Unique? Maybe it's more a matter of powder choice than bullet weight. Unique is pretty fast powder, do I need a slower burning powder to duplicate the factory round results? I'm giving my Unique rounds a pretty stout crimp..just wondering.

Slower powder won't do you any good in a snubby.

[Hobie]

Terry had it right. To "shoot" for average I believe you should chronograph the Rem version of the FBI load in YOUR gun and see how a load of 5.0 gr. (weighed) Unique under those bullets does in YOUR gun also over the chronograph. Then and only then will you know if you can SAFELY use the combination you'd like to use.

If not, try Power Pistol powder. Use a scale AND a manual to arrive at a SAFE load.

I use 5. 0 gr. Unique under swaged 158 gr. bullets (hollowpoint or not) for my .38 Specials and they are somewhere in the middle of the wide range of loads loaded by the various factories.

[gundownunder]

If this is for CCW would you be better off using 125gr factory HPs to give you better expansion in the manure bag and also keep the lawyers happy. You could use the 158s as practice and plinking ammo.

Did a bit of searching and found a load that apparently comes from the #8 Speer manual,
WARNING- I cannot confirm this load and accept no responsibility for its use, so check the manual yourself
158gr LSWCHP loaded with a start load of 9.4gr of 2400 up to a max of 10.5gr of 2400 for 919 fps from a 2" barrel.

[horsesoldier03]

I am certainly no expert here, however I would offer this advise. If you are honestly planning on loading for CCW, get rid of the LSWC. If you dont beleive me, play around with google and find out what the penetration level is for that style of bullet, even at 800 fps. If you want to duplicate the FBI load, here is an excellent bullet. Notice, it has a gas check and a BHR of 5. These rounds go SPLAT when they hit! The 158 LSWC that your shooting likely have a higher hardness rate and are designed for target shooting and hunting.

http://www.rimrockbullets.net/catalog/i ... ucts_id=74

Also, keep with the fast burning powders, its a snubnose not a rifle, slow burning powders will not burn efficiently. Keep in mind that the FBI load was utilized before we had the lighter jacketed bullets that would expand reliably.

Keep in mind liability issues for CCW. I also have a CCW permit and totally support the concept. However, I will say this; if I have a loved one that is shot by a bullet that passed through the bad guy and struck them because it was a bullet that was not designed for self defense and over penetrated the intended target, you wont want to deal with me in or outside a court of law.

[SteveR]

Actually, I don't have a chronograph. I failed to mention I shoot a S&W Model 438 Bodyguard snub. I realize that the FBI load is basically a LSWCHP loaded to +P velocities. I am just having trouble getting the "ooph" out of my handloads...they seem wimpy compared to factory Remington 125 gr. jacketed +p loads I have purchased and shot in the same cylinder as my reloads. I have been loading using 5.49 grs. (using 2 x .3 cc Lee dipper) of Unique under a 158 gr. LSWC. What I am wondering is if maybe I AM actually creating the original FBI +P load (but with LSWCs) and not realizing it?
I've been reloading for several years...but what am I missing here?

Hi,

Speer #14 shows you are overloading; your max should be, 5.2 gr, not 5.49~5.5 gr!! You may want to get a scale.
Either way you are at max now, so with Unique you will not gain anymore.

Steve

[CJM]

I thought the "FBI load" used the discontinued Nyclad bullets, not standard swaged or cast lead bullets?

[horsesoldier03]

Here is a link for good reference. I also recommend you get a good scale and reloading manual.

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

[FF1063]

I thought the "FBI load" used the discontinued Nyclad bullets, not standard swaged or cast lead bullets?

The FBI load has been around a long, long time. It was the standard load for the RCMP for decades as well as LE in the U.S. The FBI load is nothing more that a LSWC-HP +P as loaded by Winchester, Remington and others, Buffalo Bore has their own version too with a gas check.
Remington's 'FBI' load at Midway.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=548921

[FF1063]

Here's an article on the FBI load;
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%2 ... LSWCHP.htm

[336A]

I thought the "FBI load" used the discontinued Nyclad bullets, not standard swaged or cast lead bullets?

The FBI load has been around a long, long time. It was the standard load for the RCMP for decades as well as LE in the U.S. The FBI load is nothing more that a LSWC-HP +P as loaded by Winchester, Remington and others, Buffalo Bore has their own version too with a gas check.
Remington's 'FBI' load at Midway.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=548921

FF1063 is quite right in what he stated above. Most manuals will have data for what you need. One of the classics and very best powder combos that has been around for a long time is 5.4gr Uniqe (Max +P Load) under either a cast or swaged 158gr bullet. That load is right out of the newest Lyman Pistol and Revolver manual and it shoots very well for me and others. It is 2/10ths of a grain more than the Speer Manual states but it is safe, just be sure to work your way up slowly. I like to work up in 1/10th of a grain at a time as it allows me to zero in on the best load easier.

I tried the Speer load of 5.2gr of Unique out of my S&W M10 and it shot patterns not groups. But as soon as I tried 5.3gr and 5.4gr of Unique the groups tightened dramatically. There are other suitable powders as well, such as Power Pistol, and Universal Clays, and 2400. When using 2400 do not exceed 10.3gr. Power Pistol does work well but it is flashy when compared to Unique, you also will have to use more of it to equal or exceed what you can get with Unique. I stick with Unique due to it's cost compared to other powders, yet it fills the case enough that you can't double charge a .38 SPL with it and not know it.

Of all the Manuals that are out there the Sierra 5th Edition (their Newest Publication) is the only one that I'm very cautious with. Were .38 SPL data is concerned this is the modern rendition of the famous/infamous Speer #8 manual. The Sierra data lists charge weights of Unique with 158gr bullets that are normally reserved for .38-44 type loads. The charge weights are so high using Unique that I won't ever list the data here or else where. If anyone wants it they will have to go buy the manual themselves. IMHO the max loads in that manual should only be used in Colt SAA type revolvers, actual S&W .38-44 revolvers, and .357 magnums. Yes the data goes that high. I suspect that the top load listed would make any J or Kframe size .38 SPL loose as a goose after only a couple of cylinders. Hope this helps.

[N40W111]

Lots of great info, guys...thanks for the help!

[Peter M. Eick]

I read it that you are doing 5.5 grns of unique with a 158.

By todays standards that is a hot +P load and close to the FBI load. You are probably duplicating it.

I shoot 5.0 grns of Unique with a 158 lead swc and have shot them for about 30 years with no problems. Great load.