OT - How Sudden has the Change (in our culture) been?

[AJMD429]

When I was a kid, we learned:

• George Washington 'gave' us a Republic, not a Democracy.

• He was a brilliant leader among a goup of uncommonly insightful political founders of our nation, who were admittedly a 'spirited' bunch.

• Hiroshima was a devastating but strategic military action which cost thousands of civilian lives, but likely saved many more than that.

When I was a kid, the principal:

• Paddled you and encouraged your parents to finish the job if you hurt someone or stole something.

• Laughed but gave you a detention anyway if you pulled a 'prank' of some sort.

• Allowed me to keep a 'high capacity' lever action rifle in the school safe for the afternoon, asking only 'why don't you just put it in your locker?'

Now, 30 years later, my kids are being taught:

• George Washington's main attribute was he may have had a venereal disease.

• Our nation's founders set up a 'democracy' and didn't have much insight as to the nature of man and society, so we have to re-write the Constitution.

• Hiroshima was a "genocide" and similar therefore to Hitler's holocaust, if indeed the latter really happened.

The school:

• Provides 'counselling' if you hurt someone or steal things.

• Calls the POLICE if you pull a prank, or on your parents if they spank you for hurting someone or stealing.

• If you have a table knife in your lunch box, or accidentally leave a pocket knife in your car's glove box, calls the POLICE.

My question is, did this just start some certain year, or was it insidious? What sort of time frame has it taken (I was 'out of society' from 1975 to 1988 in college and medical training, and paid little attention to the schools)?

I am curious, because that same time frame has seen medical care go from personal to assembly-line, office visits from $12 to $150, drug prices go from $25 a month for the newest, to $250 for 'ordinary' ones, and it has been all due to the government 'fixing' things.

What else have they been 'fixing'?

'Crime' I suppose comes to mind (another really good job, huh?)

We need to get a handle on this in all the OTHER facets of our lives! The more we understand the evolution of this kind of idiocy, the likelier we can slow it or turn it around.
The longer it goes on, the fewer people who are around even remember what it was LIKE before the government 'fixed' everything, so everyone just assumes that if something is messed up, the government needs to 'fix' it some more.

Scary, huh?


[/list]

[Blaine]

What is really scary, is that the Socialists doing the changes either don't care because they are in it for power, or they really think they are doing some good......I wonder why they the nth iteration of Socialism will be any better than the first?

[JReed]

It started in the late 80's and has gone down hill ever since. Esspecialy now that the hippie generation is in full power.

[Old Savage]

It started in 1963 when the Beatles came over.

[Griff]

I hate to say it; it started with my generation; those that were raised under Dr. Spock's rules.

[Bob]

I think it's time to stop it. NOW. I'm sick to death of what has become of my country. I refuse to apologize for my views. I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils 'cause the lesser of two evils is still EVIL. I refuse to feel guilty for things I didn't do. I refuse to hide my faith in Jesus Christ. I hope I can be a good example of a Christian rather than a bad one. Unfortunately I also believe that we, as a nation, have rejected God and we are beginning to reap the consequences of that. Only when we return to Him will our land be healed. We all need to pray for God to help us, individually and corporately. We need to pray for godly leaders. We need to take a firm stand against what is evil, in our own lives first and in our nation. We need to take responsibility for ourselves, our family, our community, our nation; and we need to encourage others to do the same. If our nation does not return to God, we will cease to exist. It's just that simple.
Bob

[gamekeeper]

It started in 1963 when the Beatles came over.

I could not agree more! All that Love & Peace stuff, it became uncool to be a real man, you were supposed to wear flowers in your hair and wear sandals on your feet, of course taking drugs was OK as well.
I think both the USA & the UK went wrong about the same time!


Now these pansy types are running our schools and governments!

[homefront]

In the 50's, national affluence gave most of us a taste of the good life, and conditioned us as a society to want more and better.
The social climate of the 60's did some good, but unfortunately also created massive new marketing opportunities that perpetuated a lot of useless nonsense that was shoved into our ears and eyes non stop both through the music and the rest of the media. This continued well into the 80's. Many of the fervent followers of this stuff are now either academia or left wing liberals, who keep the monster alive by feeding it our youth.
Now we're pulling really hard on our bootstraps.
Keep pullin', boys.

[MacEntyre]

It started with FDR, the most socialist president prior to Hillary. The Greatest Generation fought well against Germany and Japan, but did not defend the constitution well. FDR laid the foundation for the current mess.

I am hoping that the pendulum will swing the other way soon. If we still have a republic after the next president is voted out of office, we may have the guts to put things right.

[Ram Hammer]

In the minority....

I was raised by a man who was promoted to Marine Sargent on the battlefields of Korea and later became an engineer going to night school under the GI bill while raising a family. My mother was brought up a farm in central Illinois. Both experienced the depression first hand and lived like there was another just around the corner. The "old school" rules applied to me.

I believe in these "old school values" and that these are the standards under which we should raise our own children.

When I talk about these standards at work or with neighbors people look at me like I'm from Mars!

I'm in the minority!

[pokynojoe]

It started back in the late '50's, early '60s with the popularity of "contingency" fees for lawyers.

[Ysabel Kid]

Too early in the morning for my brain to be working completely, but if I recall correctly, one of the Soviet Premiere (Kruschev, I think), stated that sudden implementation of socialism on the US would not work, but doing a little bit at a time, day by day, would result in us waking up one day and realizing we lived in a socialist country.

It is how socialism has progressed steadily throughout much of western Europe for the past 50 years.

And it did start with FDR here - the quintessential "useful idiot" to the Commies. Every Democrat since has simply furthered our descent into this dismal abyss. Most of the "grievence groups" - feminists, environmentalists, animal-rights activits, homosexual-activists, teachers-unions (and most unions), the NAACP - are all leftists in their positions and actions, and also accelerate us down the path to serfdom. Unfortunately, it has gotten so bad that few Republicans actually advocate freedom, limited-government, free markets and other republican-values. Instead we are saddled with "compassionate conservatism" stuff, which is still "big government", still anti-Constitutional, anti-freedom and a straight, albeit slower, path towards the "Nanny state".

The only difference between Hillary and Huckabee is the speed and course - both lead to the same results.

I was born in 1964, grew up north of Indianapolis, and was raised "right" - to love my country, to honor those who had served and especially those who had died to keep us free, to revere the Constitution, to work hard and most importantly, to accept the responisibility that comes with freedom. American military men and women were my heroes. I looked up to LEO's - not sports figures, musicians or entertainers. If I did look up to the latter, it was John Wayne.

You realize the change was slow over the decades, but the change has been devastating none-the-less. When I tell my 9-year old son about how things were when I grew up, he has fits - he wants to have it the same (plus all the technology of today ).

[Hobie]

In the minority....

I was raised by a man who was promoted to Marine Sargent on the battlefields of Korea and later became an engineer going to night school under the GI bill while raising a family. My mother was brought up a farm in central Illinois. Both experienced the depression first hand and lived like there was another just around the corner. The "old school" rules applied to me.

I believe in these "old school values" and that these are the standards under which we should raise our own children.

When I talk about these standards at work or with neighbors people look at me like I'm from Mars!

I'm in the minority!

I don't believe you're in the minority on this forum...

Don't worry guys, everything is cyclical. Pretty soon things will go down hill and be so bad that the old values we miss will come back because living by those old values was how folks survived and folks who didn't hold those values didn't survive. The same thing happened when Rome went down the tubes. It won't be pleasant for our progeny though.

[brucew44guns]

I don't know when it started happening, but the re-writing of our national history has had major impacts on our kids lives. The history of our famous leaders, George Washington, Abe lincoln, McCarthur, Patton, Ronald Reagan and many countless others of their stripe, has been turned into a bunch of half truths and even lies, so that no kid has much chance to appreciate what the "forefathers" have done to build a great country. The basis for the pride our kids should have in their country is not taught in the schools. So there is no respect, no appreciation as to where it all came from. The liberals and commies keep up their work, and they are probably winning. How they must hate our constitution.

[Gobblerforge]

It started the day President Kennedy was killed. Up until that that point folks still held that it was better to give than receive, to do a good deed and not ask for anything in return, to ask what you could do for your country and not what your country could do for you.
Wow, I feel so philosophical.
Gobbler

[nemhed]

This is somewhat on topic. Last night on the national news while discussing interest rates they stated the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt.

[GANJIRO]

I hate to say it; it started with my generation; those that were raised under Dr. Spock's rules.

AHA! I knew it all along, the Vulcan Mind Meld!

[C. Cash]

Good comments fellas. The only hope that I see for our country is homeschooling our youth. We continue to crank out good liberals from our educational system en mass...very sad for our country, and eventually it will be dangerous for those who don't go along with their secular/humanist/socialist Utopia. How many millions dead in the last century alone from Socialist systems? How come they don't read THOSE history books?

[Blaine]

Good comments fellas. The only hope that I see for our country is homeschooling our youth. We continue to crank out good liberals from our educational system en mass...very sad for our country, and eventually it will be dangerous for those who don't go along with their secular/humanist/socialist Utopia. How many millions dead in the last century alone from Socialist systems? How come they don't read THOSE history books?

IMO, Only if the Parents don't involve theirselves and correct the notions the school system plugs into the kids heads..... If you talk (imagine that ) with your kids and find out what they are learning, you have an excellent chance to counteract the poison......I sure did!

[Scott64A]

The only thing we have to fear is...

-the cycle. It's would take another Great Depression where people starve to death and scrape out a meager existence and get fed up with "leaders" enough to rebel AGAIN.

Ask any old timer about the riots and crime durng the depression and they'll tell you: the string-pullers and puppetmasters don't really care until the factories burn and their palatial estates are directly threatened. Then there is change.

I guess what I'm saying is people en masse won't recognize it until it's too late, and THEN they'll have to survive, and THEN they'll see what really matters. Hint: It's not iPods, prescription drug dependancy, health insurance for EVERYONE, gimmes from the gov't., H1s, H2s, H3s, news networks, 400 channel satellite subscriptions, vacations to warm places, entitlement, cell phones or any other of the endless distractions we are indulged in by big business and ad-campaigns.

It will have to come down to high mortality and survival.

The kids with big low-hanging pants and baseball hats with the bill all flat and tilted off to one side won't last very long.
They have NOTHING to offer in the way of what matters.

They live in a dream-world like in the movie
The Matrix. Kept alive to power a socioeconomic machine.

We may see an end to civilized and polite siciety here in the next 50 years. We may see a military clampdown th elikes of which NOBODY has ever seen. People will divide, people will conquer.
I bet it gets messy.

[GANJIRO]

The school I work at had a staff meeting yesterday after school to discuss the schools mission statement and suggest changes. One thing that was brought up was the lack of parental support with all responsibility for education being dumped on the school, and with the A+ program the school has become a big baby sitting station with parents finally picking up their kids at 5pm when school gets out at 2:15. I see these parents dropping off their kids driving BMWs and $35,000 SUVs and I see where their priorities are and it saddens me. The kids just returned from a 3 week break and when I asked them what they did the vast majority say they stayed home and played video games. When my kids were small I scheduled my vacations to coincide with my kids so we could spend time together as a family. Half the kids in my school alone don't even know who their real dads are.

[C. Cash]

Edit: reply deleted. As someone's tag line states here: "Dang! I missed another good chance to shut up!"

[Blaine]

I had my daughter taking care of her affairs early in life...filling out school forms, accident forms when she was a passenger in a fender bender, medical insurance forms from same accident, etc, etc......Her own bank account and so on and so forth....I would talk her thru something she didn't understand, but would make her research stuff on her own. It's human nature not to do or learn to do for yourselves if someone is there waiting on you hand and foot......

[Jason_W]

It hasn't been all that long since I've been out of school, and even I see a lot of huge changes.

I graduated HS in '99 and since then, I've noticed a huge increase in the entitled and materialistic nature of teenagers.

I caught a report on the news this morning about some school somewhere where a high school student called the Dean to complain that school was not cancelled due to snow.

The deans wife called the kid back and gave him a well deserved chewing out for bothering them at home. Snot nosed brat posted the message on Facebook and Youtube.

Now there is huge controversy over whether she had the right to yell at the kid. The kid really deserved a good punch in the mouth.

There is this weird new concept that kids and teenagers are equals to adults and it's causing huge problems.

[2ndovc]

I bought our two boys Swiss Army knives a couple years ago.. Had to tell them both not to take them to school because they'd get in trouble.

Twenty some years ago when I was in school, if you didn't have a Swiss Army or some other kind of pocket knife you were wierd. We made cross bows in shop class. Even test fired them out behind the school! Call the SWAT team!

I constantly have to chase our two off the computer/video games when the weather's nice. Makes me nuts. We have a nice big yard w/ a creek and woods, a large pond across the road and live less than a mile from the beach and they'd rather sit in their rooms and watch tv! This time of year I don't mind so much but when it's nice out the electronics get turned off and they get told to go find something to do.
It take a lot of time to keep good kids good.

My neighbors have two boys almost the same ages. Both are left to their own devices. Thier father's a drunk and their mother has to work constantly. One's a good kid and the other is a criminal and a drug addict @ 15! He's been locked up several times and got a year in the detention home this time. I've even tried with this kid and he just dumps on anyone that tries to help set him straight. Setting himself up for a rough life.


JasonW pointed out too. How many 14-15 year olds have you run across that seem to think that they're entitled to be treated as adults?

[Griff]

My 1st answer was a little flippant. However, what I really believe is that the fault goes to FDR. When the Crash hit in 1929, the country was riding' high on unprecedented incomes from the Stock Market. This country went thru extremely tough economic time’s right up until the beginning of WWII. Certain industries geared up to supply materiel to both sides until the entry of the US into the war. However, the damage was already done. FDR’s social programs during the 1930s led many into a new belief that the Government WAS there to help them. The idea of noblesse oblige on the government’s dime had entered the social conscious of those in positions of power. Long story short, it has been downhill ever since.

The baby boomers of a post-war US, have been taught that the only thing that saved many of their parents from starvation was the social programs of FDR. When in fact, all it did was forestall the inevitable. WWII was what salvaged our economy. Put hundreds of thousands of citizens back to earning a check, both at home and on the battlefield. That indoctrination continued thru their formative years, and into the colleges of the ‘60s and ‘70s. Any wonder why it hasn’t self perpetuated.

Any wonder that why in the face of any new economic crisis the country turns to a Democrat? Because the Democrats are the only ones willing to pillage the cash cow for the seemingly “benefitâ€

[Scott64A]

Ron Paul for President.


LOL

[Hobie]

This is somewhat on topic. Last night on the national news while discussing interest rates they stated the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt.

Our CC debt is $0.

[Blaine]

This is somewhat on topic. Last night on the national news while discussing interest rates they stated the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt.

Our CC debt is $0.

Plus 1

[Sixgun]

It all started in 1913 when the money mongols met at Creature Island. They needed to get this country off of the gold standard so they could create money out of thin air. (Which they are doing today) Remember the excuse of the Linberg kidnapping to call in the gold notes?

As money became available to most people of average means and life became softer, the weak minded ones decided that "we must help everyone" and "can't we all get along".

Ain't gonna happen. (all get along) The human race is the only animal on this planet which hunts it's own for sport.---------Sixgun

[Noah Zark]

Our CC debt is $0.

+1. Paid in full each month. I'm the kind of customer that CC companies HATE.

I met this morning with the quality manager at a client today and she complained to me that she and her husband had a big blow-up last night over finances. Seems that they have almost $40,000 in CC debt spread over seven cards. My jaw about hit the floor.

Noah

[Jason_W]

I have a bit of credit card debt. Not quite 10k though.

For me it started with a few rough periods of unemployment after college where I had to pay for the basics without having enough cash on hand.

I couldn't afford to buy enough food for 3 months with the cash I had left in my bank account, but I could afford the monthly payment on three months worth of food and gas.

It all sort of went downhill from there . I have been putting a dent in it lately, though.

[El Chivo]

the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt

I guess that mean's somebody else has $20k

Jason, don't worry about it, credit cards are a tool. I once went to my credit union to get a used car loan, and they gave a pre-approval for 8%. Then when I chose the actual car, they told me it was going to be 13.5%! I nearly freaked, as it turns out, the car was a little too old to qualify for the 8%, as it wouldn't be worth much on repo.

But the deal was done, so I took the check and bought the car. Then I paid off the credit union with two credit cards, one was 5.99% and the other was 6.99%. I made it a priority, and paid them off within the year so essentially I got my car for 6%. Plus I got my title right away, if I had defaulted the credit card company couldn't take my car.

That was 15 years ago, and I still have the same car.

So they are a good tool for smoothing out the rough spots, just don't work up a big debt and forget about it. I have a low rate card on which I occasionally float a balance, although I have the money elsewhere it is locked up.

As far as the starting point for all this goes, it would say it was really the Industrial Revolution. First there was the big growth of industry, then a period of expoloitation. Then "Anarchists" started appearing, labor unions, Marxists, etc. Once that line "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities" was coined, that was the start of the movement. Ayn Rand nailed the mindset in her books, and she wrote them in the forties I think. Read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair, too, that may have been the start, and that was out in the '20's I believe.

Other countries have it pretty bad as well, which is why their economies are so bad. The people are lazy because there's no incentive. In the world of Fuller Brush Men there is no lollygagging.

[Mojo]

Ron Paul for President.

Amen brother!

Good observations and comments by all on this cloudy subject. Bob, I believe that you are dead-on.

[RonEgg]

This is somewhat on topic. Last night on the national news while discussing interest rates they stated the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt.

Our CC debt is $0.

Plus 1[/quote

My household also, 1++++++++

Ron

[JerryB]

When the U.S. turned away from GOD, we started down hill,it might be to close to the end to turn around but it is worth a try.Prayer and faith still does work.

[C. Cash]

When the U.S. turned away from GOD, we started down hill,it might be to close to the end to turn around but it is worth a try.Prayer and faith still does work.

+1 IMHO, what it boils down to in my view also.

[505stevec]

It happened when the Democrats (Socialists) got a better PR person and started telling people that all there fears were unfounded and we had nothing to fear but fear itself and all that. Republicans were seen as the rich fat elite who had no care for the common man. What we need to tell the Republican party is that WE are the People and they need to care for OUR rights! What has happpened has taken years but if you look at our society you will see that the majority of the people really and quite sadly do not care what is happening. I fear that when the WW II generation passes our country will slide into ruin to be taken from within by this insidious cancer called Socialism. People hate to think for themselves and would rather be sheep. I fear that all the things that I have tought my children about honor and duty and fear of God and love of country will end with their generation or my grandsons. We few conservative mostly country folk will slip into history to be talked about as they are now talking about our first president as indicated. Non the less I will continue to fight the good fight so to speak and encourage the youth to vote and to love their freedoms that were won by others.

[Ysabel Kid]

This is somewhat on topic. Last night on the national news while discussing interest rates they stated the average U.S. household has $10,000 in credit card debt.

Our CC debt is $0.

Plus 1[/quote

My household also, 1++++++++

Ron

I think we're up to +4 now! I'm old school - I don't buy something (except for the house) if I can't afford it now. Even when we need to finance a car, it is paid off early. CC companies hate me - but I love my credit rating!

[El Chivo]

I fear that when the WW II generation passes our country will slide into ruin to be taken from within by this insidious cancer called Socialism.

But, it was the WWII generation that voted themselves Social Security, Medicare, grew the unions, etc. THEY kept FDR in office for four terms.

This was underway before they came of age. Maybe it was the Great Depression that sealed it in the minds of so many.

[mescalero1]

Sixgun,
I have read reports of leopards that hunt homo sapien, and do not eat them

[FWiedner]

I believe that our current state of degeneration can be attributed directly to unintended consequences of the civil-rights movement of the 1960's, and to the generation of political activists who were adolescents at that time gaining power in government.

Good intentions without thoughtful regulation have caused terrible damage to our society.

[Jayhawker]

Ain't gonna happen. (all get along) The human race is the only animal on this planet which hunts it's own for sport.---------Sixgun

You've obviously never seen a fox get into the chicken coop then. I've known a fox to kill 20 chickens and not eat a single one. If that's not sport, then it must have been anger.

[AJMD429]

But, it was the WWII generation that voted themselves Social Security, Medicare, grew the unions, etc. THEY kept FDR in office for four terms.

Sadly, over the years of thinking and observing on this, I realize that this is very true; good people unwittingly setting the stage for the downfall of all they would claim to hold dearest.

I really appreciate the insight of the many fellow levergunner responses to my inquiry/rant.

I guess the reason we really ask these rhetorical questions is partly just to hear some people answer who we know have some brains. If you want a consistently well-educated, intelligent, and honorable bunch of people, pick a bunch of gun owners. Diverse backgrounds, differing anounts and kinds of formal education, but you can usually count on them being well versed in history, human nature, and good ideas on just about any topic.
An interesting fact is that I would NOT bother to ask fellow physicians the same question - most of them are hopelessly part of the problem, and the ones who aren't, are probably all leverguns members

[Old Time Hunter]

This thread started under the guise of cultural behaviour changes and ended on a socio-economic causes and effects. That kinda says it all, doesn't it?

Personally the vultures of society have always been with us, i.e. the gangs of New York in the mid-1800's or for that matter in every larger city in the US or world of that day. The difference is that being an substanance society compared to an industrial society, allowed the "good" people to seperate from the rif-raff, there by having a predominate society based mostly on their values, i.e. self-sufficient, respect for others, and of course their hard earned success. The industrial society forced those "good" value people into the pot with the "bad" value people and intermixed. This "new" industrial (industry- means work) society framed "work" as a value greater than the actual people....this is when our cultural changes occured. That's my .02!

'cept I agree with Griff....it's all Dr. Spock's fault.

[Sixgun]

Sixgun,
I have read reports of leopards that hunt homo sapien, and do not eat them

+ Jayhawker---read my quote again-------- I may not have made myself clear------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I said, "The human race is the only animal on this planet which hunts "ITS OWN" for sport. This means people kill other people for fun or personal gain.

[mescalero1]

When I read the one about the chickens, I revisited and came to that conclusion as well.
" Its own " is what what written, I got off topic with that leopard thing.
I am sorry

[Charles]

An interesting thread that confirms some basics about human nature. We tend to blame the social changes we don't like on the social factors we don't like. Being individuals, the factors change.

Adult human beings have a strong internal bias against change. It has always been that way. My Grandparents thought American society was doomed by the 50's, flat top hair cuts, and Rock and Roll music. They saw this as proof the criminal element had taken over the country.

[Hobie]

Hey, Charles! Let me back you up a bit. I've just been reading some old family letters decrying the decline of civilisation and society, in.... *drum roll please*.... 1832! That darn Andrew Jackson!

[Charles]

Humm 1832? I knew there was a good reason all those folks came to Texas and started their own country in 1836.

Now as to the subject of thread. It is my experience with human beings that they find what they are looking for. If they look for the signs of societal decline, that is what they will find. If they look for things to be hopeful and optimistic about, that is what they find.

I for one am very sanguine about this great country and the young people who coming up. There has never been a time in our history when there were not challenges and problems. Each generation has done it's best do deal with the problems in their time and it will continue to be so. Such is the American spirit.

So, let the prophets of doom wear their hair shirts, sack cloth and sprinkle themselve with ashes..but not none of me... no siree..not none of me. Life is too short to spend it crying over why the present is not the past.