Colt Disappointment Update

[Mike Hunter]

Dennis

Looks like you're in the "Know". So where is Colt's MFG Plant/Assembly line located?

Thanks

Mike

[edwardyoung]

Dennis

Looks like you're in the "Know". So where is Colt's MFG Plant/Assembly line located?

Thanks

Mike

He should know. He's a bona fide Colt shill. Hey Denis

[DPris]

Mike,
Believe it's West Hartford, Conn.
It's still in the general area, just long gone (as is USFA who was there briefly) from the old historical Colt complex.
Colt manufactures firearms in the same facility for both Colt Defense (military, M16 & AR15) and Colt's Manufacturing (civilian, 1911, Peacemaker) there.
They outsource heavily for parts, including forgings for frames & slides on 1911s, frames for the Peacemaker, screws, grips, anything polymer, and so on, but final machining, fitting, finishing and other work is done in-house.

Hi Edwardy,
How the ell are you nowdays? Don't see you popping up much.
How's the family & girlfriends?
Still shillin' away here.

Denis

[edwardyoung]

Hi Edwardy,
How the ell are you nowdays? Don't see you popping up much.
How's the family & girlfriends?
Still shillin' away here.

Denis

I've had numerous posts accusing you of shilling all over the internet, but deleted them before posting them. I felt suitably juvenile today to go ahead and post it.

The family's fine. Alas, all my girlfriends have abandoned me. I'm not bitter, though. I hope you and Bubbles are well.

[DPris]

Ed,
Please- by all means feel free to jump in anywhere, always good to see you.

Picking up a new box of Shills R'Us business cards today, in fact, ran out of the old ones.
The neon Shills Inc. sign we put up out front last year upped our electricity bill by about 30%, but it sure is an attention-getter.

Bubbles & I are plugging along, the doctor loves his new boat & the insurance company hates us.

Sorry to hear about the GFs. Gonna go back to trolling the beach again?
The old prospectors' motto was "Gold is where you find it", I imagine the same applies to women.
Hang yourself in there & always remember the old Biblical quote: Leteth not thy name be Discouragement, for yea, verily, it looketh funny on highschool reunion nametags.

Denis

[J Miller]

Denis,

I've finally dug down to the boxes with the gun magazines, can you tell me when the Colt Cowboy was introduced? This will help me narrow it down a bunch.

Joe

[DPris]

Believe it was 98 or 99.
Denis

[J Miller]

Believe it was 98 or 99.
Denis

Denis,
Thanks for the confirmation. That's was I was thinking but wasn't sure. I'll start digging now.

Joe

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Believe it was 98 or 99.
Denis

Denis,
Thanks for the confirmation. That's was I was thinking but wasn't sure. I'll start digging now.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I don't know this for a fact but I always thought the cowboy frames were Ruger made. Two things that made me think that.
The Cowboy is a slightly larger frame than their SAA, more the size of the first Ruger Vaqueros (introduced about 94). Plus, the Cowboy had this really crappy faux color-case much like the first Vaqueros. Colt did pay a royality to Ruger for the transfer bar. I bet they got the frames from them too.

The other thing to consider is I can't tell you how many mistakes I see in the gun rags. Gunwriter are only human, they all make mistakes.

......................well all except for Denis, of course!

[DPris]

Steve,
I've posted the same Canadian source from one former Colt Cowboy project member, one former Colt Cowboy consultant, and the current Colt marketing department.
I genuinely would & do believe all three, no reason for any of them to fib at me.

And, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Joe,
Any luck? If nothing else, you probably had a fun evening reading your way down memory lane.

Denis

[J Miller]

Believe it was 98 or 99.
Denis

Denis,
Thanks for the confirmation. That's was I was thinking but wasn't sure. I'll start digging now.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I don't know this for a fact but I always thought the cowboy frames were Ruger made. Two things that made me think that.
The Cowboy is a slightly larger frame than their SAA, more the size of the first Ruger Vaqueros (introduced about 94). Plus, the Cowboy had this really crappy faux color-case much like the first Vaqueros. Colt did pay a royality to Ruger for the transfer bar. I bet they got the frames from them too.

The other thing to consider is I can't tell you how many mistakes I see in the gun rags. Gunwriter are only human, they all make mistakes.

......................well all except for Denis, of course!

Steve,
I did find an article about the EAA Bounty Hunter single actions. It's looks to be a copy of the Ruger conversion action. Only it was German made. My memory tells me this gun may have been the Colt Cowboy. It all fits. But I still haven't found the specific article I'm looking for.
Denis says Colt says they contracted with a company in Canada for the frames, well I'm thinking the company in Canada got the frames from EAA as well as the transfer bar action. We'll see if I can find that article. This has me really bugged now.

Joe

Steve,
I've posted the same Canadian source from one former Colt Cowboy project member, one former Colt Cowboy consultant, and the current Colt marketing department.
I genuinely would & do believe all three, no reason for any of them to fib at me.

And, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Joe,
Any luck? If nothing else, you probably had a fun evening reading your way down memory lane.

Denis

Denis,
I'm on my third box of magazines now. Had to break of to go to work . You know how work gets in the way of our lives.
All I've found so far is a "Dope Bag" article in the March 99 issue of the American Rifleman. It was a nitty gritty just the facts article with no mention at all of where the gun was made.

I still have several boxes to go through and as I find the articles I'm scanning them into my hard drive to put here.

Joe

[edwardyoung]

I always thought that J P Sauer in Germany made the frames(guns) for the Cowboy. I know that is of no consequence, but I wanted to share the one bit of info I've ever thought I had on the Cowboy

[DPris]

Great gallopin' green gollywogs!

Joe,
There's zero connection between the Colt Cowboy & anything produced in Germany for (not by) EAA in Florida. EAA is an importer, not a manufacturer. I've worked with the German single-actions they bring in & have never heard anything negative about them like I have from gunsmiths about the Cowboy.
Colt did not get those frames from EAA, and the action is not the same.

The name of the Canadian company was given as Alphacasting. It does exist in Quebec & I didn't pull it out of a hat. Would it make any sense whatever for a CASTING company in Canada to buy German-made frames imported by EAA in Florida, have them shipped from Florida across the Canadian border to be shipped back down to Hartford?
Would it make the slightest bit of sense for Alphacasting to buy German frames (somehow through EAA in Florida) and have them shipped directly to Canada from Germany to be re-routed down across the border to Colt for final machining & assembly? With all of the import paperwork & duties involved each time they crossed an international boundary?
Colt was looking for an inexpensive gun for the CAS market & would never have gone through such shenanigans involving extra steps, time & money.

With all due respect, I've given you sourcing information from three people on the inside at Colt, all of which agrees on the Canadian source for those cast frames.
What does it take to let facts be facts?
When you say "It all fits" as far as the EAA Bounty Hunter being a copy of the Ruger conversion action & therefor that's what the Colt Cowboy was, I'd have to say NOTHING fits & you're grasping at straws.
The Bounty Hunter actions are different from Rugers & different from the Cowboy. Just because a given SA has a transfer bar, that doesn't mean it's the same inside as all other SAs with transfer bars.
The Rugers, the Bounty Hunters, the Colt Cowboy, and the Beretta Stampede all have transfer bars, none share the same action or parts interchangeability.

I've given you info direct from Colt, not conjectures.

Denis

[Hagler]

Joe,

I feel for you, digging through piles of old magazines & books. I used to have a nice collection, myself. I know things, that I read about many years ago, but the sources may not exist on-line, and that's what counts today. I think that you have a good memory, and you will find what you are looking for.

As far as what Denis says, here is the Alphacasting Web site:

http://www.alphacasting.com/home.html

LARGE wallpaper images:

Here is their "Colt Cowboy" wallpaper:

http://www.alphacasting.com/images/wall ... x1600.html

A Model 1911 wallpaper:

http://www.alphacasting.com/images/wall ... x1600.html

Model 1911 castings:

http://www.alphacasting.com/images/wall ... x1600.html

A Winchester shotgun wallpaper:

http://www.alphacasting.com/images/wall ... x1600.html

FN Manufacturing wallpaper:

http://www.alphacasting.com/images/wall ... x1600.html

Shawn

[J Miller]

OK, first I do not doubt anything Denis says. Nor do I doubt my memory of what I've read. That is all I started with, and that is all I'm running with. I've got at least 5 boxes of gun magazines to search through, and I've only made it "to" the third one. When I find the magazine I'm remembering I will scan it in and produce what I've remembered. Until then I'll refrain from posting about it further.

Joe

[edwardyoung]

Great gallopin' green gollywogs!

Joe,
There's zero connection between the Colt Cowboy & anything produced in Germany for (not by) EAA in Florida. EAA is an importer, not a manufacturer. I've worked with the German single-actions they bring in & have never heard anything negative about them like I have from gunsmiths about the Cowboy.
Colt did not get those frames from EAA, and the action is not the same.

The name of the Canadian company was given as Alphacasting. It does exist in Quebec & I didn't pull it out of a hat. Would it make any sense whatever for a CASTING company in Canada to buy German-made frames imported by EAA in Florida, have them shipped from Florida across the Canadian border to be shipped back down to Hartford?
Would it make the slightest bit of sense for Alphacasting to buy German frames (somehow through EAA in Florida) and have them shipped directly to Canada from Germany to be re-routed down across the border to Colt for final machining & assembly? With all of the import paperwork & duties involved each time they crossed an international boundary?
Colt was looking for an inexpensive gun for the CAS market & would never have gone through such shenanigans involving extra steps, time & money.

With all due respect, I've given you sourcing information from three people on the inside at Colt, all of which agrees on the Canadian source for those cast frames.
What does it take to let facts be facts?
When you say "It all fits" as far as the EAA Bounty Hunter being a copy of the Ruger conversion action & therefor that's what the Colt Cowboy was, I'd have to say NOTHING fits & you're grasping at straws.
The Bounty Hunter actions are different from Rugers & different from the Cowboy. Just because a given SA has a transfer bar, that doesn't mean it's the same inside as all other SAs with transfer bars.
The Rugers, the Bounty Hunters, the Colt Cowboy, and the Beretta Stampede all have transfer bars, none share the same action or parts interchangeability.

I've given you info direct from Colt, not conjectures.

Denis

If I understand what you're saying, EAA may have imported some guns for Colt during the 90's just not the Cowboy

[DPris]

Ye gods!
No connection between the two companies whatever.
(Ya rouser d'rabble! )

Hag,
Thanks very much, the image is most helpful.

Joe,
Just to put the final nail on this, here's an email I got back today (via his Blackberry) from Frederik Centazzo, General Manager, Alphacasting:
"Yes we were producing the casting's on the colt cowboys.
Why the question?"
I'd emailed asking him to confirm, he did, and after getting his response you see here I sent another email explaining why I'd asked.

I don't have a problem with your thinking you remember an Italian source mentioned in print reviews when the Cowboy first came out, but you were really reaching in trying to incorporate a very convoluted Florida/German sourcing into the mix to explain what was actually a very simple fact already established by three different people at Colt at different times.
No Italy, no Germany, no Ruger, no Florida.

By all means, look up your old mags, and I'd still like to see if one attributed the Cowboy to anybody in Italy.
If it did, it'll vindicate your memory but it won't be accurate.

My apologies to Kansas Ed for completely running away with his original thread, but these persistent Cowboy rumors just need to be laid to rest.
Denis

[Griff]

Joe,
I asked a gunscribe friend of mine if he recalled such an article on the "Cowboy," to which he replied, "not Italian parts, but if memory serves, the frames were from Canada. The case colors were painted on like Ruger and that they were junk.

That someone put out such mis-information in print both he & I agree, absolutely possible. In fact, it was the common comparison at the time, "...for $700 I can get a badly assembled sixgun with the Colt name on the barrel, complete with a Ruger transfer bar, but w/o the strength of the Vaquero/Blackhawk; OR, for $350 I can get an Italian made traditional sixgun and add a $100 action job and have a worthy shooter. Is the Colt name worth nearly twice the price..."; or some variation thereof.

Steve,
The Colt Cowboy was sized the same as the SAA. I've only ever fondled but one, and that dealer apparently thought he had something special as he had the hammer tie-wrapped to the frame. Heck, aren't most of them still on the dealer's shelves?

Now for a little rant:
I really think that Colt's marketing really missed the boat on this by not demanding, no... insisting on a well produced product. Scratch the surface of almost any Ruger fan and you'll find a potential Colt buyer. Especially among CAS shooters. If fact, had the Colt Cowboy truly been a well-functioning (maybe even tune-able) and well-fitted sixgun the "New Model Vaquero" woulda sat on the drawing boards at Ruger.

In defense of Colt I'll say that of American arms makers they've kept the SAA essentially the same since 1873. Even the Italians and now Brazilians have succumbed to modifying the originals to include ambulance chaser safeties. Sure, for the most part they're easily defeated. But doesn't that beg the question, Why? The best safety is still not idiot-proof. Whether you remove it; or just simply don't use it, the result is the same... you're only as safe as your "gray matter" allows.

Oh well, enough ranting on a nice sunny Sunday. I'll add my apology to Ed also... sorry for the hijack of your thread.

[DPris]

Additional info on the Cowboy this morning from Frederik Centazzo at Alphacasting.
He says (and this explains the occasional surfacing of the Czechoslovakian source rumor) that originally the Cowboy was to have been a collaboration between Colt and CZ, but it turned out that CZ couldn't do it at the last minute. So Colt "in a panic" called Alphacasting who built all the necessary tooling in 6-8 weeks "to support the program".

Denis

[Yodar]

Stretch,

I bought a Series 80 Gold Cup a liitle over 20 years ago thinking it would be better to buy a 1911 that had already been "civilized" as opposed to buying a run-of-the-mill GI model and spending a lot of money customizing it. Wrong!

It wouldn't group for sour apples. It shot a little better after I had a gunsmith give it a smoothing and tuning but not much.

Finally had the barrel and bushing replaced with one from Ed Brown. Shot a lot better then.

Then the rear sight flew off one day while I was shooting it at the range. Had it replaced. It too flew off but it took a while longer. Had it replaced with a nice sight from Wilson Combat. So far it has stayed on.

None of this should have happened on a supposedly "quality" firearm but it did.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Joe,
I asked a gunscribe friend of mine if he recalled such an article on the "Cowboy," to which he replied, "not Italian parts, but if memory serves, the frames were from Canada. The case colors were painted on like Ruger and that they were junk.

That someone put out such mis-information in print both he & I agree, absolutely possible. In fact, it was the common comparison at the time, "...for $700 I can get a badly assembled sixgun with the Colt name on the barrel, complete with a Ruger transfer bar, but w/o the strength of the Vaquero/Blackhawk; OR, for $350 I can get an Italian made traditional sixgun and add a $100 action job and have a worthy shooter. Is the Colt name worth nearly twice the price..."; or some variation thereof.

Steve,
The Colt Cowboy was sized the same as the SAA. I've only ever fondled but one, and that dealer apparently thought he had something special as he had the hammer tie-wrapped to the frame. Heck, aren't most of them still on the dealer's shelves?

Now for a little rant:
I really think that Colt's marketing really missed the boat on this by not demanding, no... insisting on a well produced product. Scratch the surface of almost any Ruger fan and you'll find a potential Colt buyer. Especially among CAS shooters. If fact, had the Colt Cowboy truly been a well-functioning (maybe even tune-able) and well-fitted sixgun the "New Model Vaquero" woulda sat on the drawing boards at Ruger.

In defense of Colt I'll say that of American arms makers they've kept the SAA essentially the same since 1873. Even the Italians and now Brazilians have succumbed to modifying the originals to include ambulance chaser safeties. Sure, for the most part they're easily defeated. But doesn't that beg the question, Why? The best safety is still not idiot-proof. Whether you remove it; or just simply don't use it, the result is the same... you're only as safe as your "gray matter" allows.

Oh well, enough ranting on a nice sunny Sunday. I'll add my apology to Ed also... sorry for the hijack of your thread.

Nope, it was slightly larger. I know this because I work on several trying to make a decent gun of them. I had all three here at the time and did compare them. The Cowboy was slightly bigger than the SAA's but not quite as big as the Vaquero or EAA/Hawes/Arminius.
The part of the Cowboy transfer bar that you could see was like the EAA. But the other end was more like the Ruger as in how it connected to the trigger. The EAA's have a tiny piece brad-ed to the side of the trigger where the Ruger and Cowboy have a one piece trigger/transfer bar lifter arrangement.
BTW, EAA's tiny piece brad-ed to the side of the trigger is its weak link. Like the Ruger it has a plunger in the end of the base pin that holds the transfer bar out so it can come up without hitting the frame mounted firing. And, like the Ruger sometimes the base pin will jump forward locking up the action by preventing the hammer to cock because the transfer bar is stuck under the firing pin. But, unlike the Ruger, if you force the hammer the least bit that tiny brad-ed on lifter will bend or break off the trigger and the bar won’t come up and you will get a failure to fire. The easiest way to fix it is to throw the T bar away and weld up the hammer face enough so that the transfer bar isn’t needed. This works on the EAA’s and Cowboys too, but not the Ruger because they aren’t half-cock guns to load like the EAA’s and Cowboys.

I do the same thing for the Berretta Stampedes as well.

[Arminius]

Gun Mag "Visier" of Germany just did a review of the NEWEST Colt SAA´s, in .44-40, at 1800 €´s, and was full of praise!

https://www.visier.de/1692.html

Hermann

( Sorry, in German, and no article itself, but I have it and I could copy it! )

[DPris]

Joe,
Any luck with your magazines?
Denis

[J Miller]

Joe,
Any luck with your magazines?
Denis

Not yet. I finished the third box a week or so ago but have been too busy to get back to it. Will try to get back to them this week.
So far the only article I've found about the Colt Cowboy was a rather dry one from the American Rifleman in March of 99. No mention of country of manufacture at all.

Joe

[Griff]

Steve,

I only fondled it, didn't any of mine to compare... but that was my recollection of it. I confirmed that with a reviewer that looked at the sample he was sent... that was his recollection also. Whether he measured it, I don't know.

[J Miller]

Joe,
Any luck with your magazines?
Denis

Denis,

I'm sorry to say I just finished the last box of magazines that I know of. No success . I found tons of interesting stuff, but only the one article on the Colt Cowboy.
I thought I had that magazine I read the article in. If I do it's hidden good.

Joe

[DPris]

You may have it hidden in some dark corner along with the Ark Of The Covenant.

I think it's a case of mistaken memory.
I think I did that once, but I can't remember for sure....

Denis