Modern mountain man choices...

[Lawyer Daggit]

I assume self defence is not an issue- if not- a Marlin 39 TDS- a trapper length 22 lever action that pulls apart nicely and fits into a back pack it is also much easier to use accurately than a .22 pistol.
I would also a BLR in .308 with a couple of spare magazines. Reasonable compromise between speed and accuracy and chambering ammo I figure I can get almost anywhere.

If the area had a lot of game suitable for a shotgun I would consider a combo gun- one of those Russian jobs in - .308/12 guage, but I am concerned about the weight of shotgun shells.

Most birds can be taken with a slingshot and a pocket full of pebbles or SSG shot.

If doing the same thing in Australia I would swop the BLR for a .223 CZ carbine and a couple of spare mags (as long as I am in an area where Buffalo and Sambar are not present)- as it will do the job on Kangaroo, Wallaby and smaller deer and I can get ammo almost anywhere ammo is sold.

[Lawyer Daggit]

One other thing, if in an area where there is trout- a good fly rod- or at least a bull whip, flies and leaders.

Many a trout was caught in an evening back in the days of high country stock leases in Australia by a leader or just length of line tied to the end of a bull whip and a tasty worm, grub or fly slipped on the hook.

[Buck Elliott]

Ever since I was just a pup I dreamed of being a mountian man and did manage to spend a few falls in the high country guiding hunts for some 3 months at a time. But the other evening while watching "America" The Story of Us, the narrator stated that the mountian men of old had to eat 6000 calories a day to manitain their weight. I guess that explains why I always lost so much weight in camp. I only ate what I would normally eat at best, but I have never been what you would call over weight. To eat some 3 times as much as I normally do I would have to have 2 full time cooks, a supply line running constantly and be chewing on something about 10 hrs a day.

Funny thing about the amount of food it takes to keep going... Every now and again, one of our (usually female) Summer guests would sit idly by the fire, consulting the latest Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig book on calories, points, &c, all the while casting glances our way, as she figured and computed... Invariably, the comment would finally come, saying basically,"do you realize that you guys consume between 7,000 and 9,000 calories a DAY...?!? Why don't you weigh 700 pounds...?!?" We would then answer that the seven- to nine-thousand calory intake was only what she saw us eat, and that the total consumption was more like 11,000 to 14,000, some days. As to why we didn't gain weight like Sumo wrestlers, we suggested she (they) follow us around for a couple days, doing everything we did, and working as hard at it as we did, starting about 5:00 am, and literally going non-stop 'til around midnight -- cutting & hauling firewood; splitting it; hauling water from the creek or spring; caring for -- including doctoring -- a herd of 25 to 35 horses; grooming and saddling most of those horses every day; stringing and removing picket lines; packing and loading camp; kicking out manure piles; and the thousand other things a man just does automatically, without much thought, to keep a camp and an outfit running smooth, and making it an enjoyable experience for the guests, so they could sit by the fire and compute our caloric intake...

At altitudes above 7,000 feet, one's basic metabolism changes. It takes more fuel to move in the rarified atmosphere, and even more just to keep warm, on the rare occasions when one gets to sit and listen to the latest postualtions from weight-loss gurus such as Ms. Craig, et.al.

Our "crew" larder consisted of high-fat, high-energy foods, supplemented by tons of granola, Snickers bars, jerky in all its several forms, fruits, nuts, raisins, &c... We always had fresh meat and produce, even on a 10-day trip, because we had a tried and true menu, and we stuck to it, and No One ever went hungry, although we did have one kid go on a pitiful-but-short-lived hunger strike, because we couldn't feed him Domino's Pizza on the first night out... After a 24 hour day of not eating what he was offered, it finally occured to him that left-over steak might not be such a bad idea after all... But that is another tale...

[Buck Elliott]

One other thing, if in an area where there is trout- a good fly rod- or at least a bull whip, flies and leaders.

Many a trout was caught in an evening back in the days of high country stock leases in Australia by a leader or just length of line tied to the end of a bull whip and a tasty worm, grub or fly slipped on the hook.

If you want to fish for subsistence, give up any ideas of "fair chase" and go into the water after them, or feel along under cutbanks, where fish like to hide in the daytime. Then just grab 'em, or flip 'em out of the water. You'll be too busy staying alive to take time to worry about the niceties of "fishing..."

"He says, "you fish poorly...""

[phc45-70]

starting about 5:00 am, and literally going non-stop 'til around midnight -- cutting & hauling firewood; splitting it; hauling water from the creek or spring; caring for -- including doctoring -- a herd of 25 to 35 horses; grooming and saddling most of those horses every day; stringing and removing picket lines; packing and loading camp; kicking out manure piles; and the thousand other things a man just does automatically, without much thought

Lordy but I do miss doing those things and would love to get to do 'em once in a while. It was even worth putting up with some of the more urbane and difficult to please dudes. If I hadn't taken a vow and given a widow woman my word, my old hide would probably be up there somewhere doing those very things and of course complaining about it and wishing I could find a widow woman to take up with.

[Buck Elliott]

They can take the man out of the mountains, but.......

[Buck Elliott]

I assume self defence is not an issue- if not- a Marlin 39 TDS- a trapper length 22 lever action that pulls apart nicely and fits into a back pack it is also much easier to use accurately than a .22 pistol...

NEVER assume that, at least not in this neck of the woods... Whether the possilble predator have two legs of four, or no legs at all, one of the main purposes for having any firearm in these hills is for personal defense...

Small stuff can be taken care of with small tools, but our main possible antagonists are probably gonna be LARGE critters, which are well armed with teeth & claws, and pushed by sometimes nasty, unreasonable dispositions...

[CowboyTutt]

This has been a really interesting thread. Someone makes a statement, someone has a difference of opinion, and the first poster explains the life experience or circumstances that led to their opinion. And its those details that have made this thread so educational and enlightening.

I do a lot of primitive camping by 4x4 vehicle or motorcycle but have not hunted yet althought I have the license for it. Some of the ideas that stood out to me that make sense are 1) The pellet pistol or rifle. Might be very effective for small game and pellets are very compact and won't take up much space. If your using a good spring and piston design, you don't need to worry about compressed air or carrying reloading powders, primers etc. They are complicated to disassemble so field repair is not an option, but they are fairly robust and I think should hold up ok. 2) Traps and fishing gear is a must, but as crazy as it sounds would it be a bad idea to grow a garden if your in one area for a while? 3) I think its important to keep it simple as many said. I think many Mt. Men had only one rifle and I'm wondering if a good accurate revolver, simple, reliable and hard to break might be a good idea instead of two guns? You could wear it across your chest in a holster. A Freedom Arms or almost any 454 Casull, 460 or 500 S&W handgun has plenty of accuracy out to 100 yards, is easy to carry in a holster and although some of the guns listed are heavy are still more portable and easily kept "at hand" in the event of a surprise attack by animal or man than a rifle which must be set down.

Obviously, you would need to practice at long range with said revolver. Handgun ammunition is also smaller than most rifle ammo although not necessarily the case with the 460 and 500 Smiths.

Just postulating some ideas for discussion.

Hey Buck, how many more calories does it take to carry a rifle over a handgun???? Ask your friend for me, will ya??

-Tutt

[Malamute]

Actually, it isnt the size of the ammo that's so much of an issue, but the weight. Most handgun ammo, at least of a caliber above about 40 cal, is quite heavy compared to most medium bore high power rifle rounds. I like having a good sixgun in 44 or 45 Colt on my belt in the hills, but the weight of the ammo is fairly serious when you're talking spending much time out, tho a sixgun and a box of shells wouldnt be too much if on horseback. Most folks seem to think you need way more ammo than those that actually do spend long periods in the far and away places tend to take. There also simply isnt anywhere that's so far away that you can't get ammo or supplies when needed, even in Alaska or the Canadian far north.

A good centerfire rifle will make you more meat, pound for pound, and do it with more options and flexibilty, than a handgun or shotgun. One round of 30-06 for example, can kill an elk, deer or moose to 300 yards, with first round certainty in a scoped rifle. A rifle takes less practice to become and stay proficient with as well, further reducing the ammunition load needs. The rifle is the tool of the wilderness. If reducing to the bare minumun and most useful, a rifle is what I would take, and the majority of those that have spent long periods in the silent places. A 22 rimfire handgun will make a lot of meat in small game and birds when needed, and takes little space or weight to have and keep shells for.

I feel the extra powered, large caliber handgun rounds aren't needed to do whatever needs done in the mountains. A 44 or 45 Colt will get the job done, and are generally easier to carry, weight and size wise.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

[Lawyer Daggit]

We do not have large life threatening critters here- other than crocodile which are not hard to kill.

Our dangerous species wriggle and crawl!

Despite tourists-and some locals using .375 cal rifles for Buffalo this is not really necessary- if you can shoot. Bushmen have taken this species, as well as camels, donkey's, deer, pig with a 303 sized pill since the first world war and only in the last 30 years or so have other calibers become popular.

[CowboyTutt]

Good points 'Mute and Daggit. However, I think you have both pointed out that it depends on the terrain and what is the biggest critter there abouts! Its really best to look at those factors first and "reverse engineer" back to how much gun you need and at what range you will be using it at. I've spent a little time in the Rockies and Alaska too, and would not be comfortable with a 30-06 on brown bear. My "Uncle" Dan lives and hunts up there yearly and his lightest rifle is a 300 Win Mag and his other a 375 H&H-pretty standard for those parts. He was going to buy a 454 revolver but not sure he ever did. There is no significant difference in cartridge weight between the 454 Casull and 45 Colt but the point is well taken on the 460 and even more so on the 500. However, you would have to offset that weight against the added 6-7 lbs of carrying a rifle if you choose to carry both rifle and handgun. As to the general populace's preference for the rifle over handgun, its because its easier to shoot a rifle well than a handgun. Or at least, that is the common perception. Plenty of good handgun hunters out there but that often relates to their tracking skills and being able to get up closer. Obviously, your own skill sets would determine your choices in armament and most would choose a rifle. But when you compare the added weight of carrying another smaller long gun or a long gun and small handgun, I was just wondering if being proficient in a handgun chambered in a caliber well known for silouette shooting at long range might be a more efficient option. Perhaps for a few it might be, but for most, the rifle would be their first choice. The problem as I see it as that IF your in brown bear territory and IF your by yourself, you will have to put that rifle down when you get to skinning your kill, and that is when some bears are known to strike. In AK, you can run into some big bears while just fishing or hiking. If I was in such terrain I would not want to be without a heavy caliber handgun as my constant side arm. I saw some Grizzly tracks up in Willow, AK in the mud not far from my Uncle's residence while we were moose hunting. Sure had a profound effect on me and he wasn't even a big one.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

By the way, most of that hunting trip was spent in tundra so thick I could have walked right by that moose and not even seen him!

-Tutt

[phc45-70]

My choice, no matter where I'd be going would be my 1895cb 45-70. I've had wonderfully accurate rifles that were capable of taking game at several hundred yards but if I can't get close enough to make a good shot with Bea ( I sort of call it Bea, short for Beaitrice after beaitrice Kiddo, Uma Thurmans character in the Kill Bill series) well I'd just go hungry I guess. But it's easy to carry and will knock down anything I might run up on and the recoil is not bad. I shoot cast WW in a 405gr mold which weigh about 434 and pushed with 40gr of 3031 they're going between 1550 and 1600 fps. Penatration is unbelievable.

[Malamute]

Well, for off the record, I do live on the edge of good grizzly country, know folks that have had unpleasant encounters with them, and still feel that the super powered handguns arent needed. I can shoot pistols fairly well, (does consitantly hitting an 18" plate @ 300 yards count? With the ex's g-19? One handed? With witnesses?) and still have no desire to hunt with one, and cannot hit anywhere near as consistantly with any handgun as any rifle. Practical is the main concern for meat making in my mind, and certain hits at various, and unknown distances is what I seek. Irons are good for daily carry, glass is what I use for actual hunting. Some places don't give any chance to shoot much distance, but in the Rockies it can be anything from 10 yards to 300 or more. If one chooses to limit themselves to shorter distances, I have no problem with that, but for my use, I like the options that a decent scoped rifle give as far as poor light and distance. YMMV.

Phil Shoemaker, an Alaskan guide for those not familiar with him, has used a variety of rifles in his line of work. There is a picture he posted on another forum with a rather decent sized grizzly he shot with a 30-06 with 220 gr Nosler Parttitions. I believe it was a "stopping shot"in heavy brush, not a "hunting shot". He commented that they had to cut brush away just to take the picture. The subject of the thread was something to do with rifle caliber and bears. A couple of his comments on the matter were, "If you can't kill a bear with a 30-06, the problem isn't the rifle", and "Caliber makes a difference, but not nearly as much as most of those on this forum believe". BTW, Shoemaker has used a 357 magnum pistol with heavy loads for a bear gun, and felt it was adequet. He gave it to his daughter, who is also a guide, for her bear gun and went back to the 44, which he feels is quite adequet. Phil uses a 45-70 lever as a carry gun for bear protection as I understand it, but the subject I was addressing was if a 30-06 was "enough" for grizzlies. Shoemakers experience is firsthand and over time in the business of guideing.

Borrowed from Mr Shoemakers posting for reference to the subject:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk16 ... 000725.jpg

[2X22]

My choice, no matter where I'd be going would be my 1895cb 45-70........ I shoot cast WW in a 405gr mold which weigh about 434 and pushed with 40gr of 3031 they're going between 1550 and 1600 fps. Penatration is unbelievable.

An excellent choice! When I asked my son this same question about a 'mountain man gun', his answer was the same as yours, his Marlin 45-70. We both use a near identical load as you are, with the exception of 2 more grains of 3031 and neither of us has ever recovered a bullet out of any elk Fantastic penetration though our own velocity is 1512fps

2x22

[CowboyTutt]

I've heard of the sources you mention Malamute and they do have a lot of credibility as do you. I guess the addage about "bring enough gun that you can shoot well" applies (I don't doubt your pistol shooting BTW). Your probably right about pistol vs. rifle, I'm just considering other options. A light weight, scoped mountain rifle and large handgun for back up would work well in brown bear country. In black bear country like the Sierra's then my BLR in 358 Win with a few boxes each of a light varmint load and heavier 250 grain slugs would do. Back-up would be my Kimber 1911 in 10mm which is reletively light and compact. I also have a CZ 550 in 375 H&H AI. I could swap out the nice wood with synthetic to lighten it up and it would make a great all around rifle for either brown bear or black bear country with its flat trajectory. Thanks for the discussion and hope I didn't offend somehow.

-Tutt

[L_Kilkenny]

Interesting discussion. I really like the different aspects from around the country and adding fishing and trapping into the equation.

I'd really hate to try to live off the land solely by hunting and fishing, at least with the population of critters around Iowa today. I've had many, many "dry" days in the field. Some of this is due to the limits created by laws and limits or the fact that I don't want to spook animal "A" because I'm actually hunting animal "B". Seems to me I see more small game while hunting deer than I ever do hunting small game and vice-versa. But never the less, there are day's when the fish don't bite and days when critters are far and wide. I'm sure to have nights where I go to bed hungry.

While far from fool proof, trapping adds a lot. I've had nights with 50% catch ratio and nights with zero, sometimes with no rhyme or reason to it. I've woke up in the morning after a night of what I've thought was perfect weather and conditions to find a very limited catch. I've also woke up after a night of less than ideal conditions to find my traps full. Go figure. My catch for the day would more than likely be coon, opossum, beaver and muskrat but I've never eaten any of the above. Traps are heavy but the more you set the better your chances. Imagine that

Now lets toss in a staple of many of the mountain men, wild veggies. It's yet to be brought up on this thread (not much to do with guns anyhow) but each of us would be a fool to head out into the wild with the intent of living off the land without some knowledge of wild eatables. All I know is morels, dandelions, pine needle tea, mulberries and wild asparagus. I really need to work on this.

While a gun would be towards the top on my list of must haves, it is only one of the tools and skill sets required if one was to pull off a mountain man journey today. You may be able to live solely off a gun but you'd spend an occasional night hungry. Same could be said if you solely fished, solely trapped or solely scavenged veggies. Learn all of them and fewer hungry nights will be spent.

LK

[Buck Elliott]

Best reason I can think of for packing a revolver along, is that it will ALWAYS be with you -- or should be... Rifles tend to get put down; leaned against trees; laid aside while working. &c...

In a chest carry or cross draw rig, a handgun is going to get in your way while you go about your chores. I guarantee it!!! In a secure holster, on a seperate gun/cartridge belt, it will ride most comfortably just behind the point of the hip, and not be in the way of anything important. When making proper use of a cat-hole, the belt is unbuckled and laid or hung within easy reach -- other than that, there is NO neeed to remove it for normal daily chores. The belt should carry some spare ammunition, but needn't pack enough rounds to start a small war... Usually, 6 or a dozen or will suffice -- maybe fewer than that, if you MUST, but a belt filled with 40 rounds of .44- or .45-caliber revolver ammo is going to get heavy, gents!

Therein also lies the beauty of a rifle and a revolver digesting the SAME ammunition (NOT just the same caliber....): With selective loading, you can expect to get some 300 fps more from a rifle, than from a revolver firing the SAME ammunition, extending the range and probable lethatlity of your precious ammo resource.

[tman]

30-06 in a rifle. a .357 handgun. either can and has taken all north american game over and over again. maybe the 2 most versatile cartridges ever invented?

[336A]

Speaking of grizzlies I read a post about a guys wife shooting a good sized one in AK. She was using a Mosin Nagant and 147gr FMJ surplus ammo , he also posted a link with a video of the shot. I awould still stick with my scoped Marlin 336A 30-30. However for a sidearm I'm strating to think really hard about changing out the .38 SPL in favor of a .22 LR revolver.

[CowboyTutt]

I think most ordinary men don't have the skill under pressure and shot placement under pressure to make medium or small calibers work on dangerous game. Most of my friends don't even have access to a range that allows shooting past 200 yards. How many Professional Hunters in Africa are using small or medium calibers to back up their clients? The caliber laws they have in Africa exist for a reason although I'm dismayed that they don't allow you to carry a pistol or revolver as back up. It's your life, but please don't encourage others to follow you down such a dangerous path as recommending the 38 special or 22. Please bring as much gun as you can shoot, and shoot well. And use premium bullets, and keep yourself armed, or your friend armed, while you prep your game for travel. Anything else is just plain irresponsible.

-Tutt

[El Chivo]

one of my best memories was a survival campout we did in Boy Scouts when I was 11 or 12. I was good at catching frogs so I led that crew, but we also gathered watercress and made tea from sassafrass roots. Cat-tail tubers was another delicacy. I know we had more, but I can't remember it all now, probably different kinds of fish. Anyway that's all we ate on that weekend, it was great. Nobody did any shooting.

Of course, this was more riparian than mountain, but the same idea.

[Malamute]

No offense taken Tutt, just diving into the discussion. As much as anything, just making the point for those on the periphery of the discussion, that even a fair hand with a sixgun (which is all I claim to be) is better armed for meat making with a rifle. Many on the net look for any justification or rationalization for super powered handguns, for a number of reasons. I think they are interesting, but not really needed for much of what many buy them for. Like the more potent magnum rifles, some buy them thinking they will make better hunters out of them, or kill game farther away or with more certainty even with less than stellar shooting skills on the users part, when the opposite is often the case. For those that can truly use them well, I think both are great. Some shoot their magnum rifles or extra large hanguns extremely well. For those folks, more power to them, I just want to point out that they aren't the only option or even required for reliable results. Shooting your arms well is the primary requirment for good results in the field, not the muzzle velocity or energy figures. Most shoot the less strenuous arms better, and are more willing to practice with them more. The larger handguns lose what Buck pointed out the main value of a sixgun is, handiness. When they get uncomfortably heavy or large, you've lost much of the point in my mind. When you have a sixgun of truly comfortable size and weight, you can have it on you literally all the time without it becoming a nuisance. I've come in from being out in the hills and forgot I had my pistol on. A good belt rig can do that. I carry as Buck described. This came after many years of using various types and styles of rigs in regular carry. Shoulder and crossdraw rigs just havent been as comfortable for me, I generally can't wait to get them off.

I have and enjoy shooting a variety of guns. The ones I enjoy and use the most aren't the most powerful ones. As time marches on, this becomes more of a factor.

Tutt, you hit upon a good point. "...can shoot well". If one doesnt shoot their arm of choice well, they should practice more, or change to something they can shoot well, or are willing to shoot more to achieve the level they desire. You also mentioned "most ordinary men". Well, each of us can choose to be ordinary, or not. If one chooses to achieve an above "ordinary" skill level, it's a matter of time and practice to make it happen, and takes commitment to maintain once achieved. I don't want to come across as having a big head, just make a point. When reading of shooters doing certain things, I think "hey, that would be cool, I'd like to be able to do that" and get to practicing. I've shot with, and seen, a few pretty good hands with a gun, and can truly be humble, knowing they have abilities I won't ever achieve, but it does make me want to try. If you're willing to try, then you can achieve a skill level a bit above ordinary. Hitting running small game, things tossed in the air, very small targets like pebbles, yucca stems, bugs, snakes heads, etc, with rifle or pistol is all possible. Hunting small game with a pistol is pretty good practice. Didn't mean to get OT, but illustrate the point that skills can get you better results than more horsepower. Unfortunately, some buy the horsepower in the belief that it makes up for their lack of above ordinary shooting abilities, or having read that "X caliber is the bottom end of the scale for stepping out the door in grizzly country". Both have their place, but the power without the skill to use it well can be counterproductive.

[tomtex]

Well, mountain men don't forget a good hatchet, hopefully one that has been modified to have a vine notch on it, so you can cut those briers
that are blocking you way, you just reach out with the hatchet and grab the vine within the modified notch, hook or back side sharp edge pulling back on your hatchet / tomahawk and the vine will separate, down here in East Texas most of our vines or like barbed wire.


Here some sites that that you can have $ 50.00 Hawks Forge and modified for you, www.fortturner.com , fort turner is the best ,http://www.hbforge.com ,
http://www.north-river-knives.com ( nice pictures but big cost ), http://www.coldsteel.com

[CowboyTutt]

Malamute, you said that better than I ever could! Very eloquent and I'm in complete agreement with you. Horsepower without skill is meaningless and most likely a detriment. I confess I enjoy shooting magnum handguns and rifles but they do REQUIRE practice, at least for me. When I don't practice, my skill with them atrophies until I shoot one for an afternoon again. I like to start with my heavy weight guns until I get comfortable with them, then move towards my smaller guns like the 10mm. At that point, the 10 seems like a ***** cat! I find I really do get used to the heavy recoil and finally relax and get comfortable with it. Just my own reactions and others may have different experiences.

Very well worded post, my friend.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Good Grief! I mean a "gentle and dumure" cat!!! Whatever!!!

-Tutt

[El Chivo]

regarding the visit by the rangerette when you thought you were alone in the wilderness, I had a helicopter show up once when I was quail hunting. I was fairly well in, about 3 miles from the trailhead, and I had just fired twice.

About two minutes later I had a chopper overhead. I waved and didn't think much of it until now. It could have been a coincidence, or they could have been using the LAPD's listening technology which tracks gunshots. Target shooting is illegal in LA county.

Plenty of people do lots of shooting out there and I don't hear of anyone getting caught, but it's something to think about if you think you are alone and want to play around.

[tomtex]

Depending how high you or in that tree ,the 22 cal should do just fine on all game and big foot.