Paper Patching: Anyone tried it?

[CowboyTutt]

I was hoping to have a custom bullet mould for my 43 (11mm) Mauser in time for an event at the beginning of June but its not going to happen because of expenses. I was given some PP bullets to try out by my friend Jim Williamson, my "Mauser Guru" that are in different weights than what I normally use or want, but worth trying out. This supply of bullets left me 100 bullets short of what I needed to use up my cases and my custom mould was going to drop a bullet at about 500 grains. After doing some research, I could not find too many good choices for "store bought" bullets of any kind but particularly in that weight class, but I did find a good replacement from Buffalo Arms in a PP bullet that weighs the same. So, since it is only for 100 bullets and since I'm already using PP bullets of two weights for the event, it seemed logical to try these 500 grain PP bullets and patch them myself. There are some real theoretical benefits to using pure lead swagged bullets so this really does make sense. I have found some good online tutorials for PPing bullets and Buffalo Arms can sell me templates that will make it easier for me.

I was just wondering, have any of you tried this and are there any "words of wisdom" that you would like to share with me before I do this? Any advice would be very appreciated.

Thanks very much,

-Tutt

[Chuck 100 yd]

I shot a bunch of PP bullets in my Browning 1885 BPCR .40-65.
Even made my own mold. It shot very good but not quite as accurately as that rifle shot the RCBS 400 gr. bullets.

Lots of fun learning all about it!!
I shot several 100yd. groups under 1 1/2" with that bullet but the RCBS 400 would stay close to 1" with my best at just over 3/4" for 5 shots using the factory Soul sight and globe front.

Give it a try! Have fun!

[Don McDowell]

Paper patching is a lost art, and it's not difficult to figure out why smokeless powder and grease groove bullets made paper patching and bp obsolete. You need to do a chamber cast to get a good measurement of your bore and groove diameter. Then you need to figure the thickness of the paper and the bullet diameter to come up with either a finished bullet that will be bore diameter or a tad smaller if shooting black, and a bullet that'll be exactly groove diameter with smokeless.
Lots of variables, to work with, can be fun and can be quite accurate, but it usually doesn't come easy.
270 yds

[tdoor]

I've done it on single shots in 40-65 and 45-70. None of my results were superior to a properly sized/lubed bare bullet.

I did have one very successful project with a 7x57 Chilean Mauser. As you may be aware, older 7mm Mausers usually had dimensions considerably greater than today's standard .284. This particular rifle's groove diameter was ~.289 (I'm going from memory here), and it shot poorly with jacketed as well as (even worse) any cast bullets I tried. However, I was able to get ~2" 100 yard groups with a load (I don't recall the specifics) when I paper patched .284 cast bullets. I haven't shot the rifle in a few years, partly due to the tedium of paper patching, though.... have too many other toys to play with
tdoor

[CowboyTutt]

Don, I slugged the barrel a long time ago and its around here somewhere. Seems like a 446 bullet was perfectly "one over" groove diameter IIRC. The PP bullets I have been given are 447 and that's what I was going to create with the 500 grain bullets but I will look at other options. Not sure it matters but my rifle was built in 1888 and PP bullets were the standard. The owner of Superiour Ballistics told me the wide, beveled and slightly shallow grooves are called "Type R-5" rifling.

I doubt I will PP my bullets once I get a custom mould made, but its a good time to experiment with the art and perhaps for competition shoots I might still do it.

Come to think of it, I have a box of some original German 11mm ammunition milled in 1870 something! I can measure them and see what diameter they are.

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

Andy, I wouldn't count on that rifles chamber being cut for paper patch. It's a military rifle and very few militaries actually issued patched ammo as standard, mostly was greasegroove. But it probably does have a gentle taper from the case mouth to the lands.
If you're groove is .446, then you'll likely want a paper patch bullet to drop from the mould not muchbigger than .435 . Depending on what you have for paper. You could experiment a little with just wrapping some 300 gr cast for 44 mag etal, and see what happens.
If those sort of work out send me let me know via email and I'll send you some bullets cast from my Old West mould that was cut from an original sharps bullet. I have a few on hand that are 470 ish grain with a .435 solid base.
You can wrap with about any thin paper, legalpad paper will work , or get some medium weight tracing paper at the local office or arts supply house.

[CowboyTutt]

I saw the bore and chamber through a scope once at Dave Torkelson's house. The chamber rifling does start very gently it seemed. Bore was in good shape except for last inch or so which had some pitting and the crown was a little damaged. By Smalley recommended I cut and recrown it but no way I could do that to such a good speciman antique gun.

Buffalo Arms sells paper and templates as well as bullets and its all calibrated so while it may not be full-proof it should reduce some trial and error for me.

Thanks for the offer of the bullets. I'll keep you posted about what I do.

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

You can save some money on the paper by just running down to the local staples or other office supply. The template you can make for yourself, but if you're ordering the entire gamut then the shipping won't eat you up on the paper and template from BACO. Once you have the template, you can draw it out on a flat roller paper cutter (get those at the craftstore) and make cutting the patches much quicker and easier.
One other thing to consider, I believe that rifle probably has a 1-22 twist. If so it may not stabilize bullets over about 450 grs very well..

[Ray Newman]

IIRC, the original 11mm Mauser round was PP. Recall that from some research that I did yrs. ago when I purchased my Amsburg M1871.

I started PP for my .45 Sharps rifles last year. As Don said, it is time consuming.

Swaging Pb to form the bullets produces very good and void free bullets, but the dies and press are very expensive. Store-bought swaged bullets are available, but the buyer is paying for someone’s labour and tooling as well as shipping.

A good how-to-do-it work is “Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets “ and available from Buffalo Arms: www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6300.html

My biggest bugaboo is rolling the patches, but then I made a patch board and that greatly increased the quality of the PP.

I also found that the more I roll, my hands work better and faster. PP’ing definitely requires a knack that only comes from repetition.

I shoot a flat based non tapered bullet, about 500 grain from 20:1 alloy, with a “Gov’t style” nose and is .434” dia. I patch with yellow legal pad paper and it brings the patched bullet up to approx. 446-448.” dia. The patched bullet will obturate to fit the bore upon firing. GOEX Fg and standard WLR primer, w/ a grease cookie to keep the fouling soft.

I found that when shooting the old/obsolete rifle calibres, it is best to duplicate the original loading -- inc. the bullet -- as far as possible for best results. You are one step ahead of the curve and have an original round to break down and measure.

If you do break down an original round, would you post what you find?

Steve Brooks is a very good mould maker. He cut my PP mould and moulds for several other shooters. When ordering a mould give him a call and see what information he has.
http://www.brooksmoulds.com/

Since, your rifle has a damaged crown, all bets are off as to its performance with PP.

[CowboyTutt]

Ray, I don't think the crown is really damaged in a meaningful way. Its not detectable in any visible way to the naked eye but my friend is a purist and bench rest shooter with a bore scope, so what could I say.

I spoke to Don by phone today and just called Buff Arms for the length of the 500 grain .438 bullet. It is 1.35. I did some calculations using the Greenhill Formula and get figures from 1.338 for a .438 bullet (diameter w/o paper) and 1.387 for a .446 bullet. Therefore I think this bullet stands a good chance of working. According to their website, their onion paper adds .006-007 to bullet width, so I should be able to match my .445 groove diameter pretty closely.

Interestingly, the PP patched bullets I was given measure as .445 as well, not the .447 written on the package.

I'm not going to pull apart any of my original ammo because its a full box, but the bullets measure 1.438 wide around the paper at the top just above the case neck. Maybe they shrunk in diameter in 120 years???

I'll have some pics for you soon of the slug and the box of ammo. Cool stuff.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Here's a pic of the PP bullets I have been given to try in 373 and 430 grain weights next to the 500 grain cast bullet I was using to good effect at 1538 yards but is no longer available from Buff Arms Co.



The 445 groove diameter slug:



and my original box of 71/84 ammo:



-Tutt

[Griff]

I didn't read evertyone's answers, so if already mentioned, ignore me.

PP boolits need a PP chamber. One of the things I'd forgotten when we were talkin' 'bout my Sharps is that when I ordered it, I specifically ordered it with the shorter grease groove chamber.

You really need that chamber cast to PP right up to the leade to the rifling. Grease cookies, & all that goes w/PP'in require some serious experimentin'!

[Griff]

Oh yeah, I've got a great primer on paper patchin', yer welcome to borrow it. Let know an addr & I drop it in the mail.

[Ben_Rumson]

Guys the 11.15 x 60 Mauser PP Military cartridge is set up to shoot an as patched, BORE diameter projectile...Multiplying 1mm or .03937” x 11.15mm converts 11.15 mm to inches = .4389755” in other words .439”which was the nominal bore diameter, so Tutt your antique patched rounds haven’t shrunk much.. Paper Patch Cartridges were also known as Upsettage rounds.. Ideally the patched bullet fit the bore with a slip fit or slight interference fit so as to have the proj centered in the lands with no slop, but not enough friction to ruin the patch.. Upon firing the round the BP thumped the proj into the grooves ..
Hey Ray.. In case you don't know this, each ! Mod 71 has its' bore diameter (as measured in the factory at the time of mfg) stamped in mm on the knox form, left side, just next to the receiver.. My 71s are both OESTERR.WAFFB.GES mfg’d. in 1873 & 1874 respectively, and read :11 & 11.1 respectively..11mm is dead nuts .433”, 11.1 = .437”

[CowboyTutt]

Ben, thanks for the clarification. I measured my slug again and while the groove diameter is .445 the land diameter seems to be .433-.434 at most after taking many measurements. I seem to remember reading that their were slight differences in the bores in some way between the original 71's and the 71/84's but I forget and would have to dig it up. I'm going to gently knock one of these .445 PP bullets through the bore later and see what happens. The exteriour of my rifle says 11 only and if you use your formula of .03937 x 11 =s .43307, then the land measurment would be about right. Very interesting, thank you!

Griff, I'll still be using smokeless so no grease cookies, etc, etc.

-Tutt

[Griff]

Griff, I'll still be using smokeless so no grease cookies, etc, etc.
-Tutt

BWACK!

[CowboyTutt]

Your so funny! Actually, I hope you meet Don McDowell someday, hopefully at the FoBD event July 10th-11th I think it is. I get this feeling that the two of you would get along splendedly!!! You both have the same good hearted and humorous nature.

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

Ya know Tutt you probably really messed that order up with BACO , by not having them throw 5 lbs of 1f Schuetzen powder in the box.

[CowboyTutt]

Ha! Haven't placed the order yet and even if I did, that remains to be seen.

I hope to see you at FoBD in July if the hay is plentiful. I hope to give you and any rifle of your choice a run for your moolah with "Old 3120"!

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

If things cooperate I'll bring both my sharps and lots of ammo patched and naked all stoked with black, it won't take you long to become a convert. I may even slip in a can of 1f so's you got one you can take home with you to keep on rolling.

[CowboyTutt]

Ah my friend, that is such a generous offer! And I'm tempted by it. But no thanks, I have no desire to take up BP. I reload inside my house and its bad enough I get smokeless all over the place at times, but I would not want BP loose around the house.

I do like the way BP smells and the noises it makes!

Not so much you or Griff, but others give me grief for not loading BP in my antique Mauser. I feel I have to point out that my rifle is not a REPRODUCTION Sharps by Shiloh, C Sharps, Pedersoli or any other manufacturer, but is in fact the authentic item, made BY HAND, by some poor German man who probably went blind with all the small numbers he had to stamp onto screw heads and other items. Its made with 1880 period steels and the rifling was cut BY HAND one groove at a time.

So when some of the other "high falootin" people with Shiloh's or whatever make accuse me of being "unauthentic" with their MODERN reproductions, using MODERN steels and MODERN technology, I confess to being a bit puzzled.

My friend's smokeless loads duplicate original factory ballistics, but at LOWER pressures to preserve the antique gun that is it from damage, including corrosion.

If I choose to use modern powders and customize my load to get the best from the dimensions of my authentic rifle, I see no dishonor in that. She was made by hand, not on some CNC machinery after all.

Meanwhile, those from certain forums who want to accuse me of being "non-traditional" might first wish to show up with an ANTIQUE Shiloh rifle, and not just some copy, before they accuse me of being "un-authentic" or "non traditional" because that is simply not true.

-Tutt

[kimwcook]

I see your point, Tutt. It's your rifle and you can do with it as you will IMO. I catch a ribbin for not shooting BP out of my Colt SAA's all the time. Good natured ribbin isn't a problem, but sometimes it gets old. Good luck on your load development.

PS - I haven't seen anything malicious here. Just saying.

[CowboyTutt]

Oh no, nothing here malicious at all, Kim. Griff and Don are my friends! I've actually met Griff and hope to meet Don this summer. And I like a little humor! I'm really refering to people not even on this forum. This is still the best place around. -Tutt

[kimwcook]

Tutt, I think you were clear on that. I just wanted to make sure I was. That's all.

[Don McDowell]

Hang in there Mr Tutt. It'll come to ya one of these days.
Sure hoping the FOBD thing works into my schedule...

[JReed]

Andy I get the same responses for using smokeless in my original Rolling Block. I don't pay it any mind. My thinking is I own a peace of history and how I enjoy it is my business.

Keep doing what your doing man. I love hearing of your exploits.

[Griff]

All joshin' aside, Tutt is a great fellow... and I know he enjoyed shooting a couple of the BP loaded rifles at the FOBD match I attended. I think someone has filled his head with false info about BP loading. Some folks like to scare folks away with tales of accidents, problems and corrosion. It just ain't so!

If invited again, I'll make every opportunity to attend. May even take the p/u and tent to enjoy even more of the hospitality shown at the last one. If so, Don, I got plenty of room, let me know and I'll drag an extra army cot along... (16x20 tent gets rather "cavernous" by oneself).

[Don McDowell]

Griff making the FOBD will depend on haying, so I won't know if I can go for sure right up until the minute I jump in the pickup and headout.
Altho my planned schedule prior to haying looks something like this
Alliance NE next weekend , levergun and 22 on Friday, longrange saturday, and buffalo on sunday
Kenny w's creedmoor match on the 22 of may, have a graduation on the 23rd so cant' do the mile
June brings the Big Hill at Baker mt followed by the Quigley the week after...
So if you're beeboppin along somewhere in that part of the country swing on in , I usually got a coffeepot or jug of icetea ready for consumption.

[CowboyTutt]

Griff and Don, it would be a pleasure to see you there and I totally understand the circumstances.

Griff, no one has deliberately tried to steer me away from BP. In fact, almost everyone I know encourages me to use it, including even Mic McPherson. I just see no benefit to it. I would have to get more reloading equipment, be more careful about cleaning my guns and brass (this is a biggy for me!) and learn new skills for a load that might eventually be as accurate as what I'm already using. The BP load would actually be slightly harder on the gun, by the way. There is simply no good practical reason for me to reinvent the wheel with BP just to say "its cool" and "its traditional". I'm just too pragmatic for that.

That being said, I think a old antique 10 guage BP shotgun would be SUPER COOL and that I might attempt some day.

-Tutt

[Ben_Rumson]

Muzzle loading shotgun shooting is by far the most enjoyable of the muzzle loaders for me.. Less fussy! ...revolvers & pistols are 2nd funnest.. rifles last... Got good results with all of them but a few hours of knocking claybirds down is always good fun.. Never felt handicapped w/ a M/L shotgun.. well, maybe when the doves are really coming fast... Tutt.. I had an absolutely mint 71/84 I shot with rounds just like that box you showed a pic of...I had boxes of them.. 1970s at the time.. I sweated bullets every time I disassembled that piece and cleaned it.. eventually I quit shooting it because I knew it's condition would deteriorate. Cause I didn't shoot it.. I sold it to save it... Besides My M71 Mauser single shots shot better, they were nice.. but not mint...I'm with you on your smokeless choice... Good luck y'all