Shooters & Safe-Queens

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:53 pm

What is your philosophy regarding shooting pristine vintage leverguns? Specifically, I am buying a NIB, pristine Belgian BLR in .308. I geared up for the transaction based on the notion of it being an investment in an item that will appreciate over time, but as time goes by I find myself looking forward to shooting it! Obviously that would detract from its monetary value, but be really satisfying.

How do you guys approach this type of decision?

Haycock

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:17 pm

Well, the way I look at it is very simple: If I can't shoot it, I don't want it.

Now, the can't shoot it part covers everything. Non functional that can't be repaired, collectors items, etc.
Guns that are used, not abused, and properly maintained appreciate in value even if they are not collectors items.

Guns that have been used a lot, look at the 86s, 76s, early 92s and 94s still appreciate although it takes longer.

To put it bluntly I do not buy collectors guns with the intention of rat holing them in a safe. I buy guns to shoot.
Had I bought that BLR of yours it would have been shot almost immediately.

Joe

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:21 pm

I don't think the BLR will appreciate fast enough to warrant the frustration of not being able to shoot it all that time. If you want to invest, I'd recommend a high condition Winchester Model 1886, 1873, 1876 or Marlin Model 1893, 1894 or 1895 (original ones from 100 years ago), or even some of the earlier Marlin models.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:30 pm

I have 3 fly reels that each probably qualify as the best example in the world of each particular reel - all made before 1940 - I fish all 3 of them. One of the reels was boxed and unused, but contained a bit of paint rash from sitting in the box that long. I have watched their value appreciate steadily in spite of me fishing them - they are a finite resource with a growing interest base - they will always appreciate in value. I recently faced a question about selling one or two of these, and found myself unwilling to part with any of them, since they can't be replaced. Instead, I sold a pair of "contemporary" bench-made reels that have also appreciated in value, but at least be replaced if I choose.

Whether your rifle has never been shot vs. has been shot a bit has an esoteric value, really only to someone else who would buy it never to shoot. Any one who would buy it to shoot would like to know they're getting a low-use and well-treated arm, but may not be willing to pay the final premium. If you never intend to sell it, it makes little sense to not shoot it. If you bought it to sell, then you should probably shoot something else.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:09 pm

UNLESS YOU ARE SAVING THIS FOR YOUR WIFE'S NEXT HUSBAND IT IS A SILLY "INVESTMENT", IMNHO.
AS I SEE IT, IF A GUN IS SOLD WITH A RIFLED BARREL AND AN HONEST-TO-GOD FIRING PIN SOMEONE SOMEWHERE MEANT IT TO BE SHOT....A LOT....BY ME...IF I GET MY MITTS UPON IT...

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:29 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:UNLESS YOU ARE SAVING THIS FOR YOUR WIFE'S NEXT HUSBAND IT IS A SILLY "INVESTMENT", IMNHO.
AS I SEE IT, IF A GUN IS SOLD WITH A RIFLED BARREL AND AN HONEST-TO-GOD FIRING PIN SOMEONE SOMEWHERE MEANT IT TO BE SHOT....A LOT....BY ME...IF I GET MY MITTS UPON IT...

You got that right Terry

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:45 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:UNLESS YOU ARE SAVING THIS FOR YOUR WIFE'S NEXT HUSBAND IT IS A SILLY "INVESTMENT", IMNHO.
AS I SEE IT, IF A GUN IS SOLD WITH A RIFLED BARREL AND AN HONEST-TO-GOD FIRING PIN SOMEONE SOMEWHERE MEANT IT TO BE SHOT....A LOT....BY ME...IF I GET MY MITTS UPON IT...

Too funny!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

Seriously, though... what you guys are all saying is consistent with my gut.... GO SHOOT THE GUN!!!

I think I will!

Haycock

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:46 pm

Heck, yeah! Shoot them.

I play guitar, and I feel the same way about them, too. There's some collector in Japan with a literal truckload of old vintage just hanging on the walls of his house. They were meant to be played, and guns were meant to be shot, bottom line.

Scott

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:57 pm

It was made to be shot. If you don't try it how are you going to know if it works or not? It probably will shoot so well that you won't want to sell it anyway. ENJOY!!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:02 pm

That paticular gun!
I would shoot it/enjoy it/but like all your other guns---Take very good care of it!
But,to be honest there are indeed some guns that if I did get my hands on(I would safe queen them)
Example----------A unfired(except maybe at factory)colt nickel 3" Python NIB with original box/paperwork.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 pm

JDAD knows that I shoot nice guns. I buy them to shoot. If you don't want me to shoot a gun you have for sale don't sell it to me! I leave the safe queens for others.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:38 pm

Haycock wrote:Specifically, I am buying a NIB, pristine Belgian BLR in .308. I geared up for the transaction based on the notion of it being an investment in an item that will appreciate over time...

Another aspect of your situation is that the rifle in question does not exactly have universal appeal as an "investment". Even among levergunners, people are pretty hot or cold when it comes to BLRs.

Shoot it...often.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:05 pm

shoot it. i don't buy safe queens. i shoot what i buy,and don't buy to resale. if more people did this, we could bring the prices of some fine guns back to reality. can't see having a good gun and not shooting it, a fast muscle car and not driving it at its full potentical, or not loving a beautifull girl as long as you can

life's too short.

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:13 pm

I have never bought a gun that I didn't think would eventually be worth more than what I paid, but I have never bought a gun with the idea that it would never be shot. I have a Win. 94 that dates from 1903 and it has been fired. The older they are the less they are fired, but everything is shot a little.

I have a friend that has a safe of safe queens, all very nice, some very expensive, but all he does is talk about what fun it would be to shoot them. He has lost the most important part of ownership, being able to use and enjoy the guns in the manner they were intended. That will never happen to me. The value of a gun for me is how it shoots. If it has significant $$$ value, all the better "if" I sell it, but I will let my kids worry about that . . .

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:30 pm

KirkD wrote:I don't think the BLR will appreciate fast enough to warrant the frustration of not being able to shoot it all that time. If you want to invest, I'd recommend a high condition Winchester Model 1886, 1873, 1876 or Marlin Model 1893, 1894 or 1895 (original ones from 100 years ago), or even some of the earlier Marlin models.

OR, 1st quality shotguns.

I've only had three "safe queens." 2 of which were a pair of consequetive numbered SAAs in .44-40, fully engraved, 1-pc ivory gripped; .999 silvier plating on barrel, frame & cylinder; 18k gold on cylinder pin, ejector housing, hammer, trigger guard & backstrap; trigger, ejector rod and all the screws were "fire-blued. They arrived in an oak presentation case w/original paperwork & boxes. The only thing I did was put a tie-wrap thru the frame and around the hammer so they couldn't be cocked. Sat in my safe for about 2 years, finally auctioned 'em off to buy my son his own CAS guns.

The other is a Winchester Bi-Centennial Commemorative mdl 94. With plenty of other 94 carbines to choose from, I don't have any burning to shoot this one.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:33 pm

Hobie wrote:JDAD knows that I shoot nice guns. I buy them to shoot. If you don't want me to shoot a gun you have for sale don't sell it to me! I leave the safe queens for others.

I don't believe in safe queens. These were tools that were made to be shot. I buy them, enjoy them for a while, then pass them on to someone else to enjoy. They are just "things" and we can't take them with us. I always try to remember who showed a fondness, for one of the herd, and when I decide to part with it I give them first rights of refusal. Many people here and on RFC have acquired the pieces of history that I was fortunate enough to enjoy.

I just wish you would show some tree rats dropped with that rifle.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:28 pm

Wow! Such passion! Such strong opinions!

I'm shocked!

NOT!!!

Haycock

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:52 pm

What kind of 'craftsmanship' would go into an actual GUN, only with the intent that it sit in some 'safe' where it will never be shot, or even carried afield...? If artisans want to make a mock-up, or 'museum' piece, I say go for it, but if it is in my price range, it will get used.

I just love the folks who buy old, 'battle-scarred' guns, then carefully wrap them in cotton batting after a good dose of silicone spray, and tuck them away, so they won't get any more scratches or dings...

MOST of the dings on my 1889 Marlin were probably from my grandfather coming home after an unsuccessful deer hunt, leaning the gun against the kitchen cabinets, and his wife brushing him out of the way while she prepared dinner, the gun therefore cascading to the floor. I'll add some 'dings' of my own, perhaps SOME of them due to fighting a wild bear or Indian, but most of them just the same old thing - I scratched one of my .444 Marlin leverguns up good just brushing against the knurled aluminum 'free-floated-forend' of a very generic (but very accurate) AR-15 in the gun safe.

Guess what - it still shoots, and it still makes BIG holes in things. Someday my grandkid may look at that scratch and wonder what militant terrorist I slew with it and how their scimitar managed to make that kind of scratch in the stock . . .

'Safe-Queens' are for museums.

KSRtrd · Post by **KSRtrd** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:57 pm

Nope I could never leave a prefectly good firearm sit unused.

"When you have to shoot, shoot, no talk." Tuco Beneficto Pacifico

Post by **David** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:08 pm

Well I guess I'm in the minority here, I have two safes full of queens, but I also have 2 more safes and another half closet I can't fit in of shooters. I just have a weakness for pre-1898 handguns and early engraved rifles.

Hanzerik · Post by **Hanzerik** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:16 pm

J Miller wrote:Well, the way I look at it is very simple: If I can't shoot it, I don't want it.

^^^ This.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:37 pm

I have 1 commemorative rifle, it is #3 of 150. I struggled for over a year trying to decide if I wanted to shoot it. Finally I caved in! No rifle will ever have any meaning for me without the memories of shooting it. That being said, if you are truly purchasing this rifle as an investment and not to have as a rifle, I would keep it UNFIRED! IMO for what your about to pay for that, buy gold, it will retain its value and there will always be a market. And you wont be tempted to shoot it!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:04 pm

all my firearms are shooters. I have an unfired Griffen and Howe O3A3 that I have not shot because I'm waiting for the offer from G&H to buy it. If it is not considerably more than I paid for it, I'm going to shoot it. (just may be the most costly personal shot I will ever make) (thought the poseidon missles or Mk-48 torpedos wont be topped for most costly by me)

Gregch44 · Post by **Gregch44** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:46 pm

I tell you that I am very tempted to shoot my John Wayne 100 Year Commerative 1892 Winchester in .44-40, but I have not as of yet. I also have the John Wayne 94 in .32-40. In all I have 4 Commemorative Winchesters that have not been shot. However... there are 7 other Winchesters in my safe that are shooters, plus a couple Marlins, and a Browning for leverguns. Only 4 of my 28 are not shooters, so I don,t feel too bad about it. I've got to tell you though, I really want to shoot that .44-40 John Wayne.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:07 am

I am with the majority, I would shoot it, but if you want to get into the gun-selling business that is how you would start. Or fixing up guns and selling them. Nothing wrong with that. You're asking gun consumers, not gun sellers.

But one slightly different angle, I have a range queen that is pampered and has no scratches. Also my .22 is like that; can't hunt with it around here. The guns I take hunting and exploring are all banged up, but my range queen just goes to matches.

If I sell one, it might be that one because it's in the best shape. But, come to think of it, it gets shot a lot.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:33 am

I shoot every colt that I own

when your gone its over and I had the pleasure of shooting them.I have never bought a gun as a investment but something I wanted to shoot.
last year I sold off my luger collection.I shot them and sold them at a very fair price but more than I paid for them.

pete

Mokwaw · Post by **Mokwaw** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:40 am

Shoot it. Buy old gold and silver coins for the safe.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:49 am

I have a First Edition Colt Magnum Carry(NIB unfired w/everything)This gun was made 1 year only by Colt and the First Run is very rare.
So,----------------You guys think I should let one "fire in the hole"

Boy,that will cost a bunch!
Reason, One of my shooting buddies that owns a Gun Shop said about 5 months ago or so up in Syracuse, Ny at a Gun Show there was 3 men that got into a bidding war over one.Some oriental fellow ending up paying $5300
My buddy said that if I was to shoot mine probably it would cost about $3800-$4000
Now I see what looks like one on Gun Broker for like $2300 ???????????????
Buddy said that this gun will grow greatly in value over time????????????????

So----Do I let one rip?

Post by **David** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:37 am

madman4570 wrote:I have a First Edition Colt Magnum Carry(NIB unfired w/everything)This gun was made 1 year only by Colt and the First Run is very rare.
So,----------------You guys think I should let one "fire in the hole"
Boy,that will cost a bunch!
Reason, One of my shooting buddies that owns a Gun Shop said about 5 months ago or so up in Syracuse, Ny at a Gun Show there was 3 men that got into a bidding war over one.Some oriental fellow ending up paying $5300
My buddy said that if I was to shoot mine probably it would cost about $3800-$4000
Now I see what looks like one on Gun Broker for like $2300 ???????????????
Buddy said that this gun will grow greatly in value over time????????????????

More then I thought I would have put it 1,200-1,500, I would buy a used one for $350 and shoot it.
I'm more of a collector then a shooter due to where I live, it's an hour to anyplace to shoot anything. For the most part any newer gun just doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference unless it was specifically built as a collectible or anything else reasonably used. I always hear that all these people in it for the money are ruining the market, well I'm in it because I love old firearms, but anyone who doesn't consider the long term financial aspects of the field are either fools or to rich to care. If it's a brown gun for the most part who cares shoot the heck out of it, if it's a collector and collector grade, other then light careful use (if not unfired) otherwise just flush you paycheck down the toilet and let someone who appreciates it and isn't going to destroy it have it. (Their not making them anymore!) I'm not a tree huger but collecting doesn't stop with our generation and hopefully our kids will want some to.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:44 am

To the OP:

Go shoot the darn gun.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:38 am

Shoot all the unfired collectible guns. It just pushes the value up for those of us who don't!

I do have a number of unfired in the box firearms. I'd never fire any of the collectible ones. I even have some used weapons I won't shoot for fear of a part breaking. There's a big difference in an all matching Luger versus "all matching expect for..."

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:40 am

madman4570 wrote:I have a First Edition Colt Magnum Carry(NIB unfired w/everything)This gun was made 1 year only by Colt and the First Run is very rare.
So,----------------You guys think I should let one "fire in the hole"
Boy,that will cost a bunch!
Reason, One of my shooting buddies that owns a Gun Shop said about 5 months ago or so up in Syracuse, Ny at a Gun Show there was 3 men that got into a bidding war over one.Some oriental fellow ending up paying $5300
My buddy said that if I was to shoot mine probably it would cost about $3800-$4000
Now I see what looks like one on Gun Broker for like $2300 ???????????????
Buddy said that this gun will grow greatly in value over time????????????????

So----Do I let one rip?

hell yea go shoot it thats a expensive paper weight

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:55 am

I sell reels in Japan whenever I can. They have the strongest currency in the world which gives them great buying power, the communication is difficult making them expect to pay a premium just to have someone ship across the Pacific to them, and they are notorious collectors of just about anything - Elvis plates.
But don't expect the price that something will sell to the Japanese to set the market- it doesn't - you will be waiting a long time if you try to sell your pistol at that price.

What do I do with my stuff questions are always a bit weird - right up there with help me spend my money questions. Um, it's your stuff, do what you want.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:19 am

Ya, I was floored when he told me that price.
I guess the quanity of the first run editions are extremely small,so maybe that guy just thought the $5K was peanuts.
Boy, that is a nice little piece,small 6 shot .357 that would be a nice CCW gun.
Also whats $5K if it saves your life??
Got to think on this one!

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:14 am

a perfect CCW revolver.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:23 am

I would shoot it.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:44 pm

I have both shooters and safe queens. It is not that I refuse to shoot a new one, but why if you already have a shooter. For example, I have a Winchester 94 legacy 26 inch barrel with the tang sight and case colored finish in 38-55 bought at Winchesters close. Its never been out of the box except for a wipe down with breakfree. Its a non-shooter. I do have my fathers 1964 winchester 94, 20 inch barrel in 30-30 that I have run 2 boxes of shells through to sight it in. He never shot it as he prefered a 1951 waffle top marlin 336 in 35 Remington-- again that I shoot and sometimes hunt with. The issue boils down to the fact that I have enough rifles similar or duplicates, that I shoot some and just 'save' some of the others.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:41 pm

Another view on this topic; A few years ago I purchased a NIB mdl 64A Winchester from a member of this site, arranged shipment to a since-deceased gentleman of my aquaintance to handle legal aspects of the transfer. The rifle in question was the least produced model Winchester made. Even the individual Commemoratives were produced in greater numbers.

I have no idea what prompted the seller to sell this unfired example. There could be any number of reasons... I do know why I wanted it... even at a price that was 10 times the price I paid for the one I had stolen in 1974. I remembered firing that rifle for the 1st time... unwrapping it from the paper and filling out the warranty paperwork. So, for each of the previous owners, who for whatever reason, restrained themselves from firing the gun... I only have a big huge "THANK YOU" to offer in return. I could have bought used ones for cheaper, even took a chance that this one had been somehow damaged in its long years of storage... but that first firing, nothing like it.

So, if that doesn't have the same meaning to you... I'd advise saving it for someone to whom it does... and is willing to PAY for the privilege!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:13 pm

Heck with it,Think I will shoot it and carry it CCW
Knowing me,

I probably never would sell it anyway!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:39 pm

i don't think John M. browning designed his gun to sit in someone's safe.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:45 pm

Rusty wrote:i don't think John M. browning designed his gun to sit in someone's safe.

more than a few years ago I was asking by e-mail of a noted UK vintage tackler purveyor about a couple of his reels listed for sale - which had better spinde/bushing and was in better condition for fishing.
He replied, "THESE REELS WERE NOT MADE FOR FISHING, THEY WERE MADE FOR COLLECTING."
My reply was, "think about it"
After that he started rating his reels for mechanical condition and fishability.
I guarantee you the guy dipping arsenic and sulfuric acid for peanuts in the Hardy shop or the Midlands would rather know his reels were still fishing 100 years later rather than collecting dust on a shelf.