Noslers Magnum Hunt Club

[deerwhacker444]

Just finished watching an episode of Noslers Magnum Hunt Club on the Outdoor Channel. They were in Tanzania after Cape Buffalo. Did anybody else see it. The second hunter had a Doug Turnbull Winnie in 475 Turnbull.

Honestly, it almost turned my stomach. This guy takes a first shot when this bull is standing in some pretty thick cover with only his head and neck showing, probably 100+ yards away, no scope, open sights. Bull runs off. Trackers pursue. Next, the same hunter is lined up on what is supposed to be the same bull meandering the edge of some brush. Hunter then proceeds to throw 3 more rounds at the buffalo and the buff takes off. We never get to see the buff go down or how many total shots it took to bring the animal down.

When it's finally dead, the hunter is kneeling down for the money shot with the DT rifle leaning on the buffalo, and he's extolling the virtues of the gun and caliber and says something to the effect of "how the cartridge never lets me down"..!

I've never been buffalo hunting, probably will never get a chance to go, but is 4+ expended rounds on a buffalo mean the cartridge of choice is a success?

It just doesn't sit right with me to use something that will not finish off an animal cleanly or quickly. I know that buffalo is an extreme case and are extremely tough. I also thought I read somewhere that the Turnbull cartridges were marginal for African big game when you go by the numbers.

It just reminded me of that knot-head on one of the shows that shoots that pig in the head with an 177 air rifle. Luckily he hit the pig in the brain and got an instant kill, but that just doesn't show respect for the animal.

I'll get off my box. It just rubbed me the wrong way.

[TedH]

I saw that too. I couldn't believe he took that first shot. That's the second time I've seen the 475 Turnbull take on a buff on a hunting show. Multiple shots both times. Seems like it just doesn't have the smack that the big Nitro Express cartridges do on the cape buffalo. Could just be their shot placement, those buffalo have certainly been killed with lesser cartridges.

[madman4570]

I saw that too. That first shot?????????????

But,sometimes I think you just run into a certain buff or whatever that just sucks up more than normal.

About a year ago watched a show where a guy placed 4 good shots with a .460 Weatherby in a African Cape Buff and after each of the first three shots the buff went about 50yards(150 total) finally shot it in the head with fourth shot at about 50feet.
Those animals are amazingly tough. Somtimes more than usual.After that I thought 45-70???????????
Where is the PH(got my back??)

[86er]

Here's a few comments that are my 2 cent contribution:

Doug Turnbull is a personal acquaintance of mine for quite a while. We give him a lot of case coloring work on our custom shotguns, among other things. Mike Rintoul is another friend of mine. Mike was first consulted to make the Turnbull cartridges. Mike is sometimes honest to a fault, one of the characteristics of him I appreciate. Doug didn't want to hear what Mike had to say and he went elsewhere for his cartridge loading. If you review the DT website you'll see most of the animals taken were shot with the 400 grain bullet and a few with 450 grain bullets. Why not the 500 grain bullet that is also available? When the inventor of the cartridge chooses the 400 most often and the 450 rarely but not the 500 you might conclude that the 500's just don't perform as well in that cartridge. Mike Rintoul and I have tried them all and our personal conclusions are that the 500 grain has some issues the way it is loaded in that cartridge, not withstanding ballistics and terminal performance (like stability, action problems, rifling deterioration after only a few hundred rounds, etc).

The lighter bullets lack the sectional density and design integrity to penetrate as much as they could. The 470 NE uses the same diameter bullet but pushes 100 grains more bullet than the Turnbull at the same velocity. Frankly, the 470 NE is not an outstanding penetrator, but is adequate without question. So to end my impresssion of the 470 and 475 Turnbull cartridges, they are new, different and effective within reason but not any more effective than the related 470NE and in a lot of ways less effective than a 450 NE and other similar cartridges with a reputation for great penetration. The legal requirement for 4000 lbs ft engery and .300 SD in some countries are not met by the lighter than 500 grain bullets in this cartridge. Obviously Nosler could use any bullet they want but the factory Turnbull ammo does not have Nosler bullets in it. Nosler chose their 450 grain bullets. Clearly they saw something about the 500 grain bullets potential performance that disuaded them from loading it.

Now about buffalo, of which I've shot several capes personally and with clients. It is NOT uncommon to hit one in the vital zone and get very little reaction. It is also not uncommon to shoot one several times, although the first shot may result in death, the additional shots are to make that happen now rather than later. Personally, I think it is unsporting to kill an undisturbed buffalo at 100 yards. You take the danger out of dangerous game (until a follow up) and you take a lot of skill out of the hunt. I believe in getting as close as you can to the buffalo. If the buffalo stands it's ground when it becomes aware of you then it becomes "you or him" one on one battle, so to speak. You shoot this one because you now have to. If the buffalo turns and retreats than it is essentially a chicken sh*t that does not live up to the reputation of dominant buffalo and you shoot this one to remove it from the breeding pool. Either way, you are up close and the buffalo decides how it is going to die. At close range the N.E. cartridges and others including the Turnbull's are very effective. At 100 yards, the traditional cartridges are starting to lose effectiveness rapidly. Since the Turnbull starts off under the other cartridges it also finishes last at the longer range. Lastly, there is always a controversy over using soft or solid bullets on buffalo. I don't have a problem with a client using an expanding bullet for the first body shot if the situation is set up just right. However, as a PH I use solids every time and I like the client to shoot solids for every shot after the first. In fact, if the client is capable and confident and we have an agreeable discussion beforehand I like the client to shoot solids on the first shot too. Anyway, the Turnbull cartridges can be loaded with solids, however I have seen almost every person that used one to date shoot expanding bullets. At 100 yds, in my opinion the bullet has much less chance of expanding or penetrating like it should. Most of these bullets are designed to expand at ranges out to 75 yards or so and after than the bullets behavior becomes unpredictable. Case in point, we shot a cape buffalo that was acting perfectly normal and was observed on several ocassions for 3 days. After killing the buffalo my skinners found a .475 diameter bullet in the chest that had slightly cut and bruised the left lung. It was most likely from a 470 Nitro Express. The bullet brand is unknown but it had expanded into a very big mushroom and the front section broke up a lot. My client was using a 375 so this bullet was from an old wound.

So, in conclusion I don't think the hunter did anything inherently wrong. I think the PH is to blame for the 100 yard shot and the ethics of that are debatable among PH's and clients. Next, the client likely had faith that the cartridge would be effective based on advertising, reviews and comparisons that may have been made against cartridges that are a league above the Turnbull. I'll bet expanding bullets were used. In my opinion, the way the hunt was conducted and the fact that the show sponsors are responsible for the rifle and ammo led to marginal decisions. The decisions on the cartridges capability were likely hyped up, maybe exaggerated, and poorly defined for the shooter, or the shooter chose to ignore common sense and precedence in favor of wishful thinking. There is nothing wrong with the hunt or the cartridge if they were within legality and carried out to finality. However, better judgement, understanding and free-will without external influences may have resulted in a better set-up for the application of the cartridge.

[madman4570]

Good Info Joe, Thanks!

[CEMENTHEAD]

Agreed !! Thanks for weighing in Joe.

[stinson]

About a month ago, Nosler ran a father-son mule deer hunt, in Colorado, I think. The son was about 13, and he took a shot at a mule deer that was wayyyy out there. I ran the segment in slow motion several times, and it looked as though the bullet struck about three feet over the buck's head. The son obviously did not have the skills to take the shot. Later in the show, he took a 350-400 yard shot at a nice buck and missed cleanly. He finally did kill the deer, and dad was whooping and hollering, but it was a really disgusting show of poor judgment and worse sportsmanship, in my opinion. Nosler should have been ashamed to air it, but I guess selling bullets now comes before respect for the game. Sad.

Then there's "The Best of the West." Big game target shooting at its best. Don't even get me started on that bunch.

[piller]

That is just another example of why I like Leverguns.com. We have people here who know what they are talking about.
As many of you know, Joe let me take a Water Buffalo with a Puma in .480 Ruger using handloaded 400 grain Speer jacketed soft points. This was done at the game ranch in Hondo, and not only was Joe backing me up, but Mike Rintoul was also there. I know from that experience to not go underpowered again against something like that. My first shot was from about 30 yards if I remember correctly, and even though Joe was not worried, I must admit to being concerned when two shots from me and one from Joe's Model 86 just made the Water Buff turn and run off. In my opinion, limited as my experience is, 1800 pounds of wounded Water Buffalo has the potential to become exciting in a hurry. In the end, Joe was right and no one was hurt except for the Water Buffalo. Moral of the story, Joe knows what he is talking about, and from experience, I know he will not let you do anything stupid. If he says the caliber is not as good as another would be, I believe him.