OT- "Go shoot these animals for me"

[madman4570]

Here is what I am trying to figure out?
Now this is only my opinion, and should not be taken as anything more than that listed below.

Why in God's name having a business which already has its share of Non-Supporters thinking this type fenced hunting is way wrong and giving those people that think this way "A lot of added fuel to the Fire"????
Now,this entire topic can spread like wildfire throughout this forum/other forums/and many within the hunting world.
I think if you ran a poll of ALL the Hunters, you would have a large portion that would indeed oppose this arrangement very much so. Not to even mention if there was any possible book writtings many people might be turned off on this type of game taking.

Why would anyone even bring up a topic this way.I would think there are many of fence sitters that were just that, on the edge of the fence(even members maybe on here)that maybe thought of trying a fenced hunt but now?????????

Just saying if it was my buisness-----------------------This I think would be a Bad Move! But that is just my opinion!
and who knows who elses.

I do know, right now there is a bunch of pals here(we are getting ready to play in a mens basketball game) 4 are hunters/when asked a non named question like this " all 4 think its morally wrong "???????? Just saying??????

[shooter]

We hire people to kill our beef, chicken and pork for us, because we don't have the time and resources to do it ourselve, but we certainly don't brag that it was our doing, or mount their heads on the wall, for one and all to admire.

There is a vast ethical difference between the two systems, and I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see, it.

This old boy wants someone to "hunt" for his own self aggrandizement. ........ That makes him a first-class egotistical phony, in my book!

Buck, not saying I can't see the difference. I'm just kinda playing devil's advocate, arguing both sides. Even if one doesn't have a problem with Joe doing the hunting, I do have an issue about the guy adding to a "collection", or maybe bragging about the animals, or lying and saying he shot them himself. Even then, that's really none of my business.

Here's a situation for you, one that may be a better analogy. Say you had a steer out in the pasture, one with a pretty brindle colored hide. You're going to send this steer to the slaughter house anyway. Someone comes up to you and says, "I really like that brindle steer you have over there. How about you sell him to me, but I just want the hide. Just kill it, give the meat to the slaughter house, and send the hide to me." Is this the same ethically, or different? In both situations, they are owned animals, and are destined to be harvested either way. The person is willing to pay a fair price for the whole animal, even though they only want a certain part of it for a certain purpose. Now, I know there's a difference in the hunting aspect of it. I also realize that some people have an issue with high fence hunting in general. That's their choice, and their right. Just like even though I may not agree with this gentleman's motives or reasons, it's his right and his choice to do as he sees fit. It's also Joe's choice to harvest the animals for him or not. I know he asked for our opinions, but in the end it's really none of our business what he chooses.

[horsesoldier03]

Man I am sure when this topic was posted 86er never thought it would stir such a controversy.
People have been shooting animals both exotic and wild behind HIGH FENCES on large acreage for longer than I have been alive. They dont do it to make it an easier kill, they do it to protect their investments from being killed by other hunters that havent paid money for the right to harvest them.

It may sound easy but I am quite sure that it is probably not as easy as it sounds. Personally I have never hunted like that but can hardly beleive it to be immoral and I know 100% for certain it is legal. It may not be your cup of tea, if so, DONT DO IT! Some hunt over bait, some hunt with dogs, some fishermen only catch and release and some that hunt with dogs always tree and release. Others may prefer bowhunting or muzzleloading over conventional modern day rifles. To proclaim another meathod other than your preference as immoral or of less sport seems narrow minded at best and boarders being self-righteous.

What is the difference between a museum be it private or public paying a hunter to provide an exhibit VERSUS CABELAS paying high dollar to individuals for their trophy after they have harvested it???

[Hobie]

I have seen nothing to say that the man/client is going to claim that he's hunted the animals himself. I see nothing to say that they are native and as such are pretty much farm animals i.e. they are raised to be killed. As Joe has said, and I've seen no reason not to believe this, a couple of these critters aren't all that predictable.

Of course, there are folks who think shooting game at 1000 yards distance is great and others who say if you using anything but a sharpened stick you're not giving the game a chance. I know fellas who won't eat store bought meat at all, for a variety of reasons at least one of which is they didn't do it themselves. Some guys hunt deer with dogs and in some places it is as illegal as all get out.

My point is that there is a wide range of hunting ethics. I maintain that shooting exotic (ie. non-native) species on game ranches is not the same as hunting native species. Never will be.

BTW, anybody who knows me knows I'm one of the "do it the hard" way guys.

[86er]

Here is more insight. The man's cashiers check is real and was processed by the bank. I spoke at length with him. There is no way for him to obtain the animals live due to shipping permits, local ordinances and his own lack of a place to put them. He and 3 friends have a personal museum established on property that they own. They have left it in trust to a local school district for educational purposes. It would be transferred to the school without any debt and the trust would fund it for at least a decade. He wants to include all of the animal on SCI's recognized lists from all catagories (N. American, African, Spiral horned antelope of the World, Native Animals of South America, etc.). I've given him the best price on the animals which is why he wants to purchase them from me. He is not interested in shooting them - apparently he has the means to go hunt or shoot wherever he wants, as money is seemingly no object. He asked me to shoot them because he does not want someone to claim to have "hunted" the animals or otherwise misrepresent them. He asked me to shoot them instead of darting, etc because he feels it is the most expeditious and humane death and he hopes the carcasses will produce meat to be eaten by humans or other animals. There are some laws governing these animals but we can make this transaction without violating any laws. For him to hunt these animals in their native habitat would cost him in excess of $40,000 each. He does not want to spend that much without 100% chance of success and he feels a large expediture like that limits the amount he can leave in trust.

As far as "hunting" in a high fence, to me it is a legitimate business. I don't shoot many animals inside the fence myself, after all I can buy them live, tranquilize them and release them, and "hunt" them with clients all the time. Ocassionally there is a need to cull an animal or other reasons to shoot one. There are 5 species of animals that were put on our ranch in 1997 and have been established ever since. The fence does provide an artifical border but it does not take away from the animals natural ability to use the cover and take advantage of natural instincts. We do not use feeders on our ranch, the animals eat what is natural. In a drought we will put alfalfa out in planted cabbage patches to help out but we don't hunt near the patches. There are a few animals, like aoudad, that you would be hardpressed to see in 5 days time hunting on foot. You'd have less a chance of getting a shot at one. This is within our 1000 acres. There are natural areas that funnel game, natural "food plots" like apple trees that deer frequent and overflowing rivers, roads, houses, etc that form natural barriers to game that is not fenced in, making them more predictable and easier to observe or get a shot at than some animals inside a fence. Considering a whitetail deers natural home range is 1 1/2 square miles, many fenced ranches are many, many times the size of a deers natural range and the deer would behave no differently if the fence was torn down. Obviously, you can take advantage of animals in a fence with vehicles, "drives", feeders and artifical habitats. Oh, by the way, just about every hunt in Africa with the exception of Zimbabwe and Zambia are fenced situations, whether high or low. In fact 90% of "safaris" are conducted on fenced property. Whitetail and elk on Santa Rosa Island in CA don't have a fence keeping them in, but the island keeps them pretty well contained. New Zealand is full of introduced species that are rarely fenced, but the moutains and river system create a natural barrier (although artifically manipulated by man) to keep the animals within a confined area. A lot of this is discussed in my book at length.

People have different motivations for shooting game on fenced ranches. If the property is set up right and the seeking of game is conducted properly it can be challenging and satisfying, but clearly not for everyone. I thoroughly enjoy hunting with a bow for free range animals for myself. But our exotic business satisfies a lot of people that is evidenced by 23 years in continuous operation and 60% repeat clients. We also hunt moose, bear, deer, alligator, hogs, elk, birds and some other species on public and private land that is natural habitat. This year a took Blacktail, several whitetail, hogs, birds and feral animals outside of any fenced environment. Of more than 600 big game animals I personally shot only 36 have been on fenced property. I enjoyed those hunts but I am the first to admit it is not as satisfying as free range native game hunting. That's another reason why I detailed how/where to hunt exotic animals that are free ranging in my book.

Anyway, that's the view from here....

[Blaine]

A nice hunt on someone's dime? Well, ok, if I have to.....

[shooter]

Well......Why didn't you say that in the first place?!? I say go for it! If you need some help, even just someone to take pics, I guess I will reluctantly volunteer.

[kimwcook]

That being said, Joe, can't wait to read the hunt report.

[Chas.]

Not in a million years!!!!!!!!!

I'm with Buck.

[n2t]

86er, I would go for it. I would be willing to bet that if you asked 100 ethical hunters if they would do it, many would say no and give a bunch of reasons. I bet if they owned the ranch and the money was coming there way..they would have far fewer qualms. You're harvesting animals for a client, I don't see an issue.

[El Chivo]

it sounds to me like it's in the direction of a legitimate museum acquisition and the client is not going to say he shot them, so whatever legal means he uses to procure the animals is ok with me.

I'm not against high fence operations except for the part where you plunk down $500 or whatever! The public land where I hunt is not all that large - bordered on all sides by freeways and houses and the game lives and hides within that. It's a lot like a fenced in ranch or amusement park or island, maybe a little bigger. Basically the deer are going to hide and step back out once you pass by, wherever you are.

Also, this is 86er's business, and there's no reason for him to turn down a paying gig. If they hired him to slaughter Santa Rosa Island's elk herd, should he be obligated to turn that down? They're just going to get someone else. Pros are not in the business of turning down business.

I think the quote should be:

"I don't hunt to kill; I write a check to have hunted"

[Leverdude]

Seems to me that many folks are too quick to condemn things & people before they know whats really going on.

[piller]

Joe, glad you checked it out. Now that you have put my doubts to rest, I wish you luck and hope you have fun.
As far as the high fence questions and ethics, that could be several topics and a lot of typing. Since I found out that there is so little public land in Texas, and that due to drought and other factors beyond the landowners control, I have begun to understand the way things work in this state. When in Rome...

[madman4570]

Seems to me that many folks are too quick to condemn things & people before they know whats really going on.

You really are kidding with that statement right???

Lets see(please reread very first post of this thread and let it sink in ) while this may not be the exact quotes----------see if this is kinda close???
Calls about HUNTING SUPER EXOTICS
Says he HUNTS all over the world and has 100's of MOUNTS
Says he dont like CANNED HUNTS
Says he DONT LIKE SOUTH TEXAS
Says when you shoot them use the GUN I FAVOR(.308)


Now, How do we get to someone wanting to donate EVERYTHING for the poor schooll kids????????


This complete story change my friend was just written after the fact(dont chastize the guys on here for stating their opposing opinions to what they were told at the time of their posting)

My own personal feeling---------------------SOMEONE might be telling TALES!

[Old Savage]

The way I see it these game farms are raising animals for harvest. How hunt like it is just depends on the situation. Calling these various operations hunts brings in many opinions of what a hunt should be. I suppose ideally they should be like O'Connor's month long pack trips in Canada. To some extent if someone shows you where the game is it ceases to be a hunt. Might better call it a shoot.

[O.S.O.K.]

Interesting how this turned out...

We get the whole story and now its a different deal all the way around.

I guess you can't post something without providing minute detail least it be interpreted in the most negative way.

This is especially true IMHO given the author of the thread. We should all know by now the type of man that Joe is and give him the benefit of the doubt before trouncing all over his post.

[76/444]

Hmmm,... seems to be getting a little convoluted around here, for me.

As I stated earlier , I am not into canned trophy hunts, they just aren't for me,... but TO EACH THEIR OWN! Hell, I don't even mind some jerk being so low that he asks someone else to do his shooting,... there are jerks everywhere with these types of requests!

TO EACH THEIR OWN! THAT'S LIFE!

Obviously that was not and is not what makes my skin crawl!

What does make my hair stand on end, is, someone taking a jerk like that, up on his request!

Now, if the jerk needed help, because of a physical problem ... NO PROBLEM, he wouldn't be a jerk! Anyone, everyone,... in my opinion, would, or, should,... come to his aid!

But,... answering this guy's request strictly for monetary gain!!!,... just leaves a bad taste in my mind!

I am of the school,... if I wouldn't do a favor for free,... I certainly wouldn't do it for cash! It just feels like some sort of moral line is being crossed that doesn't feel good for ,... ME!!!

But,... TO EACH THEIR OWN!



just one man's opinion.

[Old Savage]

Joe is a fine guy and everyone who has dealt with him says so.

Raising animals for profit takes many forms. I have visited a couple of these game museums in Los Angeles and they take the form in some cases like public museums with displays of the animals in a nature like setting. The ones I saw are privately maintained at the expense of the owners. They are indeed educational and like the museum of natural science in LA give those who haven't seen them an opportunity to appreciate the animals in the type setting in which they live. I spent an hour in one fellow's set up which he maintained at his rental business from what he had attained from his various hunts and found it very interesting to see animals I will never seen in person. No need for name calling here. I meant nothing disparaging to anyone in my post only that there are different ways to look at things.

Joe wanted opinions and I think he got them. His business largely deals with people's opinions. I recently expressed interest in a hunt in Ca with some friends. We ended up deciding not to go. Joe took the time to inquire what went into our decision and what we were interested in. I think we both came off better for the exchange. I would enjoy setting up something with him at some time. I think he runs a very positive professional operation in whatever he does and that has been the feed back here.

[Leverdude]

Seems to me that many folks are too quick to condemn things & people before they know whats really going on.

You really are kidding with that statement right???

Lets see(please reread very first post of this thread and let it sink in ) while this may not be the exact quotes----------see if this is kinda close???
Calls about HUNTING SUPER EXOTICS
Says he HUNTS all over the world and has 100's of MOUNTS
Says he dont like CANNED HUNTS
Says he DONT LIKE SOUTH TEXAS
Says when you shoot them use the GUN I FAVOR(.308)


Now, How do we get to someone wanting to donate EVERYTHING for the poor schooll kids????????


This complete story change my friend was just written after the fact(dont chastize the guys on here for stating their opposing opinions to what they were told at the time of their posting)

My own personal feeling---------------------SOMEONE might be telling TALES!

Nope I'm not kidding at all. I didn't chastize anyone anyone, just stated my opinion only to be chastized by you. But besides that the fact remains that there are folks ready & willing to condemn things before they know whats going on, not just here but in general. We still dont KNOW whats going on.
I can only really base my thoughts on this situation on my past perceptions of 86er. I'v never had any reason to think he's anything but a stand up guy & wont change that opinion simply because of an easy to misconstrue controversial post. I supose he did invite criticism by starting the thread though.

[76/444]

I think this portion of the OP is what has a few of us questioning the whole matter,...

"A few hours later he called back and asked for some more details. He told me he hunts all over the world and is not a real big fan of hunting species outside their natural habitat. He also commented that he didn't really care for south Texas. Again, he promised to think it over and call back. A few hours later he called again. He said he really wanted these species for his museum collection but didn't want to hunt them. He asked if he could send a check for the animals and shipping and said when my check clears, "go shoot these animals for me" and send me the life sized capes. I hesitated and told him I guess I could shoot them for him.

*I asked if he wanted them shot with anything particular*

and he said "I'd like to see one of them shot with a 308 since that's my favorite" I promised to oblige him. Hey it's a hard job but someones gotta do it!
"
---------------------------------

...personally, I really have a flag pop up on the asterixed portion and a few others, really causes some suspicion for me on the whole deal. I am not in this business, so I am really only going on gut feeling, not facts... but I really find it hard to believe one would ask such a question.


just one man's pinion.

[Scott Young]

I am with 86er, but then I run a long line on both land and water. I have also set traps for people who are wanting specific animals. Bobcats and otter both fetch 100 bucks just for the hide. Then the people have to pay the taxidermist do his job.

For the rest who weren't content in simply disapproving but sank to character assassination, innuendo and judgmental dribble, no comment.

[madman4570]

The customer makes me wonder but if the check is good whats it matter.

Says it all

[86er]

Here's the final decision on the matter. I told the guy I have little interest in spending the time to shoot these animals. I offered to sell them to him live or to have them delivered to me dead. I also offered to have a taxidermist go out and kill them and take care of the hides in a professional manner from the time they hit the ground. Lastly, I suggested he send a relative or friend to do the shooting. He is going to send a niece and grandson to do the shooting later when school is out. I see some of the exchange I recited was taken out of stride. I asked if he wanted them shot with anything particular with a sense of humor and sarcasm. His response about using a 308 was giving me back more of the same. I appreciate the comments and opinions from everyone. I cater to all types of folks. Some have weird requests and some have strange desires that I may not agree with personally. Nonetheless, this is a business and we do it the clients way within reason and according to laws. This was an odd request that I had not experienced to this degree before. I would get no thrill from shooting these animals, and frankly the profit is just a fraction of the actual cost to me. Don't get the impression that I would pocket over $40K on this, the actual profit is slightly more than 10%. The work involved in skinning, packing and prepping and the fuel and time are hardly worth it. There have been other instances where a client will shoot a ridiculous number of animals, some straight from the truck or picked off in the front pasture, and they don't want a lick of meat. We always make a comprehensive effort to donate the meat as much as possible and utilize the rest for useful purposes like dog food, local zoo donation for animal feed, shark bait and fertilizer. This was far less disgusting of a request than the acts of some other folks we've had (that you wouldnt think were that way until they are deep in it). Everything from religion to politics to hunting and all matters of subjects in between are subject to scrutiny. I have no interest in being politically correct. We are always legal and encourage as much sportsmanship as someone has in them, so I make no apology to those that don't like this kind of business or don't agree with some of the situations that arise within the business. I think I reached a satisfactory way to provide an experience to some college kids, give a client a reasonable price on what he needs for his collection and keep myself feeling ethically and morally sound. Thanks again for the opinions and ideas.

[Leverdude]

The customer makes me wonder but if the check is good whats it matter.

Says it all

To those who know it all.

[FWiedner]

There have been other instances where a client will shoot ..., some straight from the truck or picked off in the front pasture...

Golly Joe, I couldn't help that they were "newbies" and that's where they were standing when we got to them...

It's like that movie: "Hey! You shot him in the back", "So? His back was to me..."

[madman4570]

The customer makes me wonder but if the check is good whats it matter.

Says it all

To those who know it all.

And finally yes, {to those that are truely missing some Morals}! "check is good whats it matter" ??????


P.S.
Joe,------ Right decision on this.

[TedH]

The way I see it, non native animals kept in a fence are livestock that are bought and sold for a profit. The way the owner wants to harvest them and make his money is his business, literally. The same hunting morals that apply to native wild free ranging game do not apply, in my opinion.

[kimwcook]

Joe, your ethics and morals are topnotch. I'd be plumb proud to ride the range with you. Someday, I hope we can sit down and have a beverage of choice.

[mikld]

There are high fences and high fences. It is one thing to hunt a high fenced 100 acre wood and another to hunt 4½+ square miles high fenced or not.

Many of those restaurants that sell venison have it harvested in the barnyard with a rifle. I doubt the restaurateur shoots them.

Pretty much right on all counts Hobie but the manager of a high fenced ranch regardless of size can pretty much tell where animals can be found on a given day and time so as to cut down on hunt time.

My .02¢ -- Much easier to hunt behind a fence than in the wild (so-to-speak).

Most Hunting/Fishing Guides know where the game is, 'cause that's their job. Whether the plot is 500 acres or 500 sq. miles, fenced or open, a Manager, or Guide knows where to take his clients.

[oic0]

Men shell out fortunes to get to be the predator and in turn fund keeping those very animals alive. Never seen a lion pay 13k for the habitat upkeep of its prey. Regardless of how it is taken, this money is what allows them to keep those animals around.

I fail to see the ethical issue some are running in to.

[awp101]

It's like that movie: "Hey! You shot him in the back", "So? His back was to me..."

El Diablo? Gads, I haven't seen that in a loooong time but I've laughed about that line a bunch over the years...

[Leverdude]

The customer makes me wonder but if the check is good whats it matter.

Says it all

To those who know it all.

And finally yes, {to those that are truely missing some Morals}! "check is good whats it matter" ??????


P.S.
Joe,------ Right decision on this.

If you think Joe made the right decision then you must be missing the same morals, or have reading comprehension trouble.

At any rate I'm glad Joe posted again & now I'm done with this one. Rather talk about guns & things anyway.

[tman]

mounting a trophy head from a canned hunt is sorta like the 83 year old billionaire with a 19 year old cheerleader as his wife. nobody's fooled and it's pretty pathetic. to each his own. unfourtatley, i will never be in the position to afford either.

[madman4570]

If you think Joe made the right decision then you must be missing the same morals, or have reading comprehension trouble.

Nope,its totally different,but see thats where your trouble lies.

Having the family doing "its own hunting" and "sacrificing the time/effort/respect to the animals" is a big difference than hiring a hit man for this and to just wack em and stack em.(animals in this case would be disrespected) in my opinion!
Its all about respect to the hunted animals and as fair a chase as can be done.With those young kids it should be about as fair as it can be there.
I expect those kids will have one heck of a great time that will last in their minds/hearts forever.Also will work very hard for the trophies,and every time they see them/think of them, they will be proud.
Thats the difference--------If you cant see that, maybe you need to buy Joes book and read it.
I have, Have You?? And yes, I think Joe made the right decision!

[Rusty]

I wonder how many of us here have NOT picked up a gun and used it for pay?

I don't see an ethical problem with this at all. As long as no laws are broken and Joe says that everything is OK there. He knows the state to state rule better than I.

I'm glad he's able to make money off of it.

Isn't that what life is all about? Find something you like to do and figure out a way to get people to pay you to do it.