Strange (to me anyway) 444 brass failure

[Borregos]

Took my old Winchester 1894 SRC to the range yesterday to check out sight settings with the tang sight I have just fitted prior to Sunday’s silhouette match. Also took along my Marlin 444 to have a bit of fun with.
When I got back and sorted the brass out I found a couple of the 444 brass failed in a way I have never seen on a straight walled case before. I have had 44Mag and 357Mag split right at the neck and 30-30 in the neck and the occasional 22Hornet head separation but never this!
Load was 49gr H322 pushing a 240gr Hornady XTP.

[Hobie]

Is that Remington brass? I've seen that several times with Remington brass and other brass that gets (?) hard and splits.

[Borregos]

Yes Hobie, Remington brass on its 8th reload.

[J Miller]

Yes Hobie, Remington brass on its 8th reload.

Work hardened brass. Sometimes it happens on the first shot, sometimes later. But when it splits like that is cos it has a hard spot.

I'd anneal the rest of them to prevent them from splitting.

Joe

[.45]

I've had Remington brass do that in 44 mag. and 41 mag. Switched to starline and have had no problems.

[Wind]

Hey there Borregos - It's pretty typical for any brand of brass. They occur in the area that is manipulated most in the reloading process. Here are a few in 45-70. The first three are Winchester brass and the last is PMC. There are varying degrees of failure. The top round in the other picture is a bulge that occurs with what I would consider less than perfect case belling after resizing. The bottom round has a better look. Hope this helps. Good luck at the silhouette match. Best regards. Wind

[rimrock]

I'm not familiar with the 49 gr powder charge of H -322, but I've noticed that my H-4198 loads from a bottle with the green label as opposed to the normal white label might be a different specification based on the change in noise and extraction with the same charge. I wonder if something may have creeped into Hodgdon's mix without them being aware of it--if your charge is within acceptable pressure?

[AJMD429]

I'd anneal the rest of them to prevent them from splitting. Joe

Joe (anyone else chime in too, please!)

1. What is a practical and reliable way to anneal brass cartridge cases?
(What happens if you anneal them 'too much' and how would you know/prevent that?)

2. Can you tell a batch needs annealing before they're already starting to split?
(I've noticed that somehow after it splits, those cases just seem harder, like a crisp cookie vs. a soft one.)

3. Is it just 'working' the brass that causes it?
(I've had factory loads split like that, and cases I've reloaded many times not split like that.)

[J Miller]

AJMD,

With factory loads when they split like that it's a defective piece of brass with brittle hard spot. I've had factory Winchester and Remington .45 Colt and .357 Mag ammo split from the mouth to the case head on the first shot. Just an occasional piece of bad brass.

Here is an article about annealing I scanned in and posted over at Handloads.com:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 21570&PN=1

Hope it helps some. I've done so little annealing I'm no authority on it.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Wait a minute here, what is this about brass - what about cat owners and stuff? Be right back got to go get that first cup of coffee...

[Bullard4075]

There are enough pitfalls in annealing to discourage me from the practice.
Time for new cases.
All brass will work harden and split though in my experience Winchester brass
tends to be harder (more brittle) than softer Remington brass.

If you must the simplest annealing process is to stand the cases head down in
a container of water at least half way up the case. With a propane torch heat the
neck of the case to a cherry red then quickly tip the case over in the water .
I have seen debate over this process (the temp/color to heat to) thus my reluctance
to recommend.

[Otto]

...Here is an article about annealing I scanned in and posted over at Handloads.com:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 21570&PN=1
Joe

"Place a small pot of lead on the kitchen stove and melt it."

My how things change. So many people today would faint at the thought of melting lead where meals are prepared.

[J Miller]

I used to cast my bullets on the kitchen stove. Put a sheet of aluminum foil under the grate and cast away. Clean up afterwords and then make food. No big deal.

Repeat .... NO ... BIG ... DEAL.

So many people today are as timid and frightened as a mouse and about as useful.

The article I posted is good place to start regarding annealing. I've done it using the torch with cases standing in the water method. It worked. But I used it on ancient military 303 Brit cases when I had very few.
With the prices of brass today I'd sure consider annealing to increase it's useful life time.

Joe

[flatnose]

All fired brass casings will get hard and split eventually.
Keep an eye out for splits and cull them. anneal the rest. The larger cases, 30-30 and up, I hold in one hand with the propane torch in the other. Dull red is the color you are looking for.
To test if the case is annealed enough, put the case in your hand with the neck and mouth under your thumb. Press the mouth down on a table top. Take a look and you should see flattening of the case mouth.
Try the test with new, and also brass that has been fired a couple of times or more, and you will see a big difference in hardness between them.

[Hobie]

I am a cheap so and so and I anneal thusly (at least for the big cases).

I stand with a bucket of water between my feet. Sorry no pics but Jay has the slippers this week. I hold the head of the decapped case between thumb and forefinger of my left hand and play the torch on the upper half of the body until the case is too hot to hold and drop it in the bucket of water. Make sure the cases are dry before loading. I find this does right well on the larger cases but I'm not so fond of it for the little cases.

One thing that I like about the system is that I don't have to judge color. I can't see color like everyone else and I doubt that color would be a reliable indicator for me.

[J Miller]

"I think" that's why dipping the cases in molten lead works as good as it does. When the cases get hot enough the lead doesn't stick their annealed. The temp of the lead is constant so the cases get heated to the same point. At least that's what I think I read.

Joe

[pokey]

Wait a minute here, what is this about brass - what about cat owners and stuff? Be right back got to go get that first cup of coffee...

[AJMD429]

Cool tips and information, and I agree that there is too much lead-o-phobia and mercury-o-phobia out there.

If someone has enough sense to use a gun, and to reload ammunition, hopefully that someone has enough sense to understand the great difference between a metal and a salt - lead and mercury metals are not very toxic - but the salts are highly toxic and deadly.

Common sense industrial hygeine protocols can keep you from harm, especially if you're working with the metallic forms of lead. Lead salts, like some paint pigments, casting-pot-dross, and indoor-range smoke, can be highly-toxic, and 'one-way' poisons which enter the body via lungs, mouth, nose, or skin, but sensible protocols (see the 'caution' section in your casting handbook) can prevent problems.

I know of a case where a guy wanted to get workman's comp and disability and do the 'freeloader' thing for the rest of his life, so since he'd once worked for a paint company, he decided to say he had 'lead toxicity'. He got the blood test, and it was negative, but he pleaded to be tested again, and was - still negative. He commented that he just 'knew' he must have lead in his system, and asked if it would show up on any other test. The doctor suspected him of being a malingerer, so ordered an X-ray, which showed lead shot pellets throughout his intestinal tract. He'd swallowed several ounces of lead shotgun pellets in an effort to get lead to show up on his blood test (to implicate his previous employer and get disability), but there still was no detectable lead in his blood.

[Borregos]

Hobie, I am going to try that method of annealing with my 444 cases, thanks

[Otto]

I know of a case where a guy wanted to get workman's comp and disability and do the 'freeloader' thing for the rest of his life, so since he'd once worked for a paint company, he decided to say he had 'lead toxicity'. He got the blood test, and it was negative, but he pleaded to be tested again, and was - still negative. He commented that he just 'knew' he must have lead in his system, and asked if it would show up on any other test. The doctor suspected him of being a malingerer, so ordered an X-ray, which showed lead shot pellets throughout his intestinal tract. He'd swallowed several ounces of lead shotgun pellets in an effort to get lead to show up on his blood test (to implicate his previous employer and get disability), but there still was no detectable lead in his blood.

I'm not sure which is stupider; deliberately trying to poison yourself and subjecting yourself to all the potential after-effects, or purposely swallowing chunks of metal and subjecting yourself to all the potential after-effects.

[Hobie]

I know I'm glad I retired without a disability. The idea that I would have to be stove up to get a little money doesn't seem so good to me.