What was the .40 cal Winchester that never was?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:49 pm

I've heard several times over the years that Winchester had another cartridge in the works to follow up the 375 Win. after it took off. When the sales of the 375 were so disappointing they supposedly scrapped the .40 cal version. Does any one know more about this cartridge or if a prototype even existed?

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:10 am

I never even got a whiff - never mind a hint - of that one, Ted.

Anyone else ?

.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:40 am

This comes up from time to time. The Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 has this to say in the entry for the 375 Winchester:

"...Olin also developed a 40 caliber cartridge on the 30-30 case. Had the .375 become successful, we might now have a Model 94 .400 Winchester..."

There may be a cartridge drawing floating around the web somewhere. I think the case was a little fatter than the 30-30. More like the 303 Savage.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:58 am

On the real leverguns site, one of the winchester historians that hung around, had posted a picture of the cartridge. But alas all that good information is now gone..

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:59 am

Yes, this subject does come up now and then. I seem to remember a cartridge drawing but don't have it. Don't know why I didn't save it...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:05 am

I seem to recall it was built off of a 30-40 case size, and was more of a shortened version of the 40-72, but cranked to near 405 ballistics.

mohavesam · Post by **mohavesam** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:55 am

I'd settle for a semi-custom in .414 Supermag! Just that little extra...

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:07 am

Would that be similar to the 307-356 case opened up to 40? Or a 444 necked down to 40 case?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:10 am

I always assumed that it was the 375 case blown out to .40 cal., but that would leave it with little if any taper, so I dunno.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:22 am

To me it doesn't make sense that they would base it off of anything other than their 307/356 platform. That case is entirely the right dimensions to handle a 40 caliber bullet. From a tooling standpoint trying to base it off of the Krag/444 Marlin/ 40-72 case just isn't cost effective when they had a nice brass basic that was built into that rifle to begin with.

Ed

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:30 am

I don't think there's enough base in the 375 case for a 40 cal neck, and have enough body taper to extract well. I may be mistaken, was just looking at the diagrams in Cartridges of the World. Looking ayt 40 cal necks, and how much taper most straight wall cases have, it just doent look like there's quite enough room to make it work. With the 307-356-444 case as a base, no problem.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:52 am

The 444/307 case would be a bottle necked cased 40. The 40-72/40-70 Sharps straight predessesed the 30-40 and it's easy enough to see the 30-40 is nothing more than the earlier 40's necked down to 30. Many 40-70 ss shooters form there brass from 30-40, or have the rim recessess deepened to accept 405 winchester brass.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:55 am

The 400 Winchester had a base diameter of about .445" which as I said is similar to the 303 Savage. Also the 220 Swift and the 6.5x54 and similar cartridges.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:05 pm

Heck, I was always led to believe that the .38-40 was the 40 caliber Winchester round.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Yeh that one and the 40-60, 40-6540-70,,4082,40-72,40110,and 405, but what Ted is talking about is the cartridge that was gonna be but after the utter rejection of the bigbore rifles and the 375,307 etc, didn't make it off the prototype shelf.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:14 pm

I believe it was to be ballistically similar to the old 401 win. self loading.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:11 pm

I did a little measuring on a 375 Win case. It has a base diameter of .415". So even if you had a true .40 cal bullet of .400" the neck diameter with a bullet seated would be about .416, so obviously that wouldn't work. It must have been based on the 307/356 case.

TwoCup · Post by **TwoCup** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:10 am

Howdy.

The cartridge was the "408 WINCHESTER". I have a SAAMI spec sheet for it approved on 7-1-65. I'll scan it and try to figure out how to post it. The case is .445" at .200" ahead of the bolt face. That makes it a 220 SWIFT case but with a larger rim.

TwoCup

4t5 · Post by **4t5** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:10 pm

With marlin putting the .444 out the year before,the 408 win would have been dead in the road.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:18 pm

TwoCup wrote:Howdy.

The cartridge was the "408 WINCHESTER". I have a SAAMI spec sheet for it approved on 7-1-65. I'll scan it and try to figure out how to post it. The case is .445" at .200" ahead of the bolt face. That makes it a 220 SWIFT case but with a larger rim.

TwoCup

If you can't post it just e-mail to me at sfc1973to2001@yahoo.com.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:10 pm

That is interesting. Am I to conclude from that there may have been TWO different proposed cartridges for a 40 Caliber round? Surely the Big Bore 94 was not in design mode back in 1965. And I have heard that the 40 cartridge we were previously posting about was developed for the BB. Need more information...for sure. That Swift based cartridge is really interesting sounding.

Ed

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:07 pm

Found it...

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:11 pm

Ed,

I don't think there is any connection to the Big Bore except for the mention of it with the 375 in the Hodgdon book. That and our assumption that it would be chambered in the Big Bore. Anyway, no real evidence!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:17 pm

Yup looks like a 30-40 blownout and shortened up enough to go thru the 94 action.
Olin probably had it on the board after Marlin brought out the 444, saw the dismal sales of that one, and decided not to go with it.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Hobie wrote:Found it...

nice detective work!

bcp · Post by **bcp** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:07 pm

More here:

http://www.armorypub.com/2000/4-00.htm

.408 Winchester Dimensions Inches mm
Bullet Diameter---------------.400 10.2
Rim Diameter----------------.506 12.9
Base Diameter---------------.446 11.3
Case Mouth Diameter ---------.430 10.9
Case Length-----------------2.030 51.6
-----------------------------------------------------------

PTG lists a reamer:
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/prod ... hamber.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------

CH4D list dies:
http://www.ch4d.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------

Load data available:
http://www.loadammo.com/product/cartridgelist.htm

------------------

Bruce

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Not a thing that a .40-82 can't do better, especially in a nickel steel barreled 1886.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:54 pm

If I'm not mistaken I talked with someone on here about 4 years ago about just this cartridge as I was intrested in it then . And it seems to me this other person actually had a Marlin rebarreled into this round .

Worth note back about 2002 I think one of the writers for the American Rifleman took the 450 Marlin case and necked it down to 40 cal . Seems that he had pretty decent luck with that cartridge on deer and caribou .

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:14 pm

You beat me to it Bruce, I didnt check your post before I submitted . danny

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:27 pm

Jess O. has a 444 necked down to 40 caliber that he offers as a chambering with his reboring services.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:56 pm

Thanks to Pat for this...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:06 am

That's what I was wanting to see, thanks Hobie.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:07 am

You know I kinda swore off "wildcat" or non factory stuff in a lever action !

And I've already done the 40-65 and 40-82 in original Marlin 1895's .

But I sure would like to try this 408 WIN in a Marlin 336

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:28 am

I'm thinking the same thing. Find a decent donor rifle and go to work.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:59 am

TedH wrote:I'm thinking the same thing. Find a decent donor rifle and go to work.

The bigest hinderance may be decent bullets and donor brass !

The bullet thing can be worked around if one can be happy with cast only !

But jacketed will certainly be another story .

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:48 am

Easiest way to get it done, would be to have PTG shorten up the 405 reamer, use Hornady 405 brass, and their 300 gr bullet for jacketed, plenty of cast bullet options available. Douglas carries 405 barrels.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:34 pm

Hmmmm.... 1st I recall hearing about it... but, it makes me wonder if the reception for the "Big Bore" 94s would have been better if it'd been introduced in this cartridge rather than a warmed up .38-55?

I'd suspect not. Are not most levergunners satisfied with their 19th century cartridges?

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:55 pm

Griff wrote:Hmmmm.... 1st I recall hearing about it... but, it makes me wonder if the reception for the "Big Bore" 94s would have been better if it'd been introduced in this cartridge rather than a warmed up .38-55?

I'd suspect not. Are not most levergunners satisfied with their 19th century cartridges?

i doubt it

the .356 wcf cloned the .348. the 450 marlin, the 45-70. the 307, the 308. can't think of it getting any better in a 94, and it still didn't sell

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:35 pm

If I wanted a 40-41 caliber in that power range I would prefer a necked up .356. The case is already the right length to minimize trimming.

I think a .375/.356 would be more practical though as .375 is a more common caliber and would give better exteriot ballistics with similar power loads or same recoil levels.

KWK · Post by **KWK** » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:53 pm

Somebody in Europe thought enough of the cartridge to have it standardized at the CIP.

This thread is old, but google pointed me to it. I came across the drawing on the CIP site and was curious about the cartridge.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:46 am

Griff wrote:Hmmmm.... 1st I recall hearing about it... but, it makes me wonder if the reception for the "Big Bore" 94s would have been better if it'd been introduced in this cartridge rather than a warmed up .38-55?

I'd suspect not. Are not most levergunners satisfied with their 19th century cartridges?

never could understand why they didnt make the 375 winchester using the larger case of the 307/356..... that would have been a humdinger! and ditto for the 7mm as well.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:24 pm

Too bad Marlin didn't make a 7mm on the 338 ME case. With a Hornady flex tip bullet, should have had decent performance.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:30 pm

There are quite a few .400 (10mm) pistol bullets available but the heaviest I recall seeing was a 200 grain. A 10mm (.400) can be assembled on the 30-30 case but only if one is willing to accept a straight case like a giant .357 Maximum. I don't know how it would feed through a repeater but it should work okay in a single shot.

Some people wonder why Winchester introduced the .375 Winchester when it was so close to the 38/55. I believe it was because the 38/55 had a non-standard sized bore using bullets basically unique to it, mostly lead and FN. There were lots of .375 guns and bullets in many configurations using the long standardized .375 caliber.