Levergun goofs in the movies....

CaptainFinn · Post by **CaptainFinn** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:07 pm

I was watching "Night at the Museum" last night with the kids.

Robin Williams portrays Teddy Roosevelt in his "Rough Rider" days. Armed with a post-64 Winchester 94 complete with hammer-block safety.

As an aside, they got his uniform color wrong, making the facings , collar and cuffs on his 98 khaki fatigues dark blue instead of cavalry yellow. Yellow showed up as a dark dark gray on 1890's-era B & W photographs.

No excuse for the rifle, though, he should have had either a 1895 Winchester, I know many 1st Volunteer officers carried the Winchester lever-action in .30 Govt (30-40 Krag) but was TR's gun--the one he loaned to Bob Wrenn, IIRC--a standard sporter rifle or a saddle-ring carbine ?

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:10 pm

Hardly meant to be a historicaly correct movie. Lighten up and just enjoy the movie. I thought it was pretty funny as well as the sequal to it.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:33 pm

I try not to analyze this stuff too much and just enjoy it for entertainment, but...one thing that seems to really be getting on my nerves is how much noise movie and tv people make with guns. They're always cocking them, racking the slides, or just generally rattling them for dramatic effect. I know it's part of the show, but really, how many times does a person need rack the slide on a shotgun in order to scare the bad guy, or point an automatic rifle at bad guy and then cycle the action in order threaten him into submission? That's the stuff that drives me up the wall. But if I had seen TR holding a 94 with a cross bolt safety I would have chuckled!

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:53 pm

I was watching a Clint Walker movie last night(don't remember the name) and they said the hanging was being carried out on KJanuary 13th 1891 and all the prison guards had old beat up 1892's and 1894's winchesters. Oh well at least Clint Walker was in it. Tom

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:57 pm

Watch John Wayne's Commenchero's some time. When Jack Elam whacks Stuart Whitman with his rifle it's rubber, and a M92 copy in 1842, in the next shot the rifle is bent.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:45 pm

I thought this was kind of cool.
A list of all the firearms handled by Kevin Costner in his movies - all pretty accurate
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Kevin_Costner

and the long list of guns in movies:
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Category:Gun

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:09 pm

Somebody needs to edit that page! Ask what's up with calling Colt's 4 3/4" SAA's "Quickdraw models", and what in the world are they talking about when they say "akimbo"? Makes the whole thing sound goofy and rather amatuerish, tho the site is interesting as far as it goes.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:41 pm

KCSO wrote:Watch John Wayne's Commenchero's some time. When Jack Elam whacks Stuart Whitman with his rifle it's rubber, and a M92 copy in 1842, in the next shot the rifle is bent.

Not to mention all the Model P's, or the fact that the plot revolves around lever-action rifles stolen from the Army. Still a great movie. Two of my favorite lines:

"Oh, uh... I wouldn't try any of that city-slicker stuff on this pore ol' country boy."

"There's another one of those fellas that uses that 'friend' stuff kinda careless."

WinM71 · Post by **WinM71** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:56 pm

My favorite was in the local newspaper a few years back. It was talking about a hunter who shot a bear, and it said that he was using a "45 to 70 caliber rifle". Man, those adjustable rifles are terrific.................

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:27 pm

It always cracked me up watching the old series Gunsmoke on TV. Marshell Dillon would be riding from Dodge City up to Hays City and in the background was a most impressive mountain range. I have been all over western and central Kansas and I have yet to stumble on that mountain range.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:12 pm

I saw a cowboy movie a few months ago, don't remember the name.
It took place in the 1880s or thereabouts and there were a number of Marlin 336s shown.
It was just bad enough to be funny.

Jack

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:27 pm

Beaker wrote:It always cracked me up watching the old series Gunsmoke on TV. Marshell Dillon would be riding from Dodge City up to Hays City and in the background was a most impressive mountain range. I have been all over western and central Kansas and I have yet to stumble on that mountain range.

Me too; good. Now I'll quit looking for it too

JB · Post by JB » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:31 pm

A Time For Killing is a western based during the civil war, yet the the confederate troops are armed with 1873 Colt revolvers and 92 Winchesters. I don't how the south lost with weapons that advanced!

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:17 am

In "Unforgiven" one of Little Bill's lawmen mention the unavailabity of 30-30 ammo. No wonder it is unavailable, the movie is set in the early 1880's, as evidenced by English Bob's discussion of the shooting of President Garfield.

I love this movie, but that line really irks me everytime I watch it. Especially since the firearms in the movie are diverse and appropriate to the time period.

gak · Post by **gak** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:06 am

One of the most glaring--because the whole show's co-star is the rifle--is Lucas McCain's '92 in 1880s New Mexico. One of my favorite shows nevertheless. I see they're careful to never--that I recall--refer to it as a '92 at least!

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:23 am

Otto wrote:
KCSO wrote:Watch John Wayne's Commenchero's some time. When Jack Elam whacks Stuart Whitman with his rifle it's rubber, and a M92 copy in 1842, in the next shot the rifle is bent.
Not to mention all the Model P's, or the fact that the plot revolves around lever-action rifles stolen from the Army. Still a great movie. Two of my favorite lines:

You need to remember that the world, and many gun people, even here, think the west was won with Winchesters.

That said I enjoy most westerns, whether realistic or pure hogwash.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:42 am

Beaker wrote:It always cracked me up watching the old series Gunsmoke on TV. Marshell Dillon would be riding from Dodge City up to Hays City and in the background was a most impressive mountain range. I have been all over western and central Kansas and I have yet to stumble on that mountain range.

I live just east of Dodge City and I have never seen those mountains either!

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:38 am

Now from the horses mouth... When I was working on Dances with Wolves I asked Andy Cannon about this. He said that for a movie because of the problems with firearms they always prefered to use cartridge arms. The prop rules are so strict that it's unbelieveable expensive to use the right guns. If for example they use a M/L rifle they take the southern re enactors out by themselves and they fire off in the distance at nothing, then the Union and then splice the film to get a battle. Or they just record the sound of the firing and splice it over guys snapping empty guns. Because they can't open the breech and look through the barrel they are terrified of M/L's. And of course there is the fact that 90% of the population don't know the difference or really care.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:27 am

The "akimbo" reference probably means the guy who did the website plays Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, where you can run around with two shotguns, two pistols, two submachine guns, etc extended "Akimbo" as the class is called. Not overly accurate, but for the Chow Yun Fat fans they can play the game like they're a Hong Kong action hero.

So seeing a western actor with two pistols...he calls it that.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:53 am

KCSO wrote:Now from the horses mouth... When I was working on Dances with Wolves I asked Andy Cannon about this. He said that for a movie because of the problems with firearms they always prefered to use cartridge arms. The prop rules are so strict that it's unbelieveable expensive to use the right guns. If for example they use a M/L rifle they take the southern re enactors out by themselves and they fire off in the distance at nothing, then the Union and then splice the film to get a battle. Or they just record the sound of the firing and splice it over guys snapping empty guns. Because they can't open the breech and look through the barrel they are terrified of M/L's. And of course there is the fact that 90% of the population don't know the difference or really care.

This would explain why I've seen Trapdoor Springfields made up to look like Kentucky rifles. I'm sure it makes the prop guys job easier.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:06 am

Sheesh, they are movies, made for entertainment purposes only. Any semblance to historical accuracy is purely accidental.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:35 pm

pdawg.shooter wrote:
Beaker wrote:It always cracked me up watching the old series Gunsmoke on TV. Marshell Dillon would be riding from Dodge City up to Hays City and in the background was a most impressive mountain range. I have been all over western and central Kansas and I have yet to stumble on that mountain range.
I live just east of Dodge City and I have never seen those mountains either!

I have always wondered:
My impression has always been that Kansas is mostly grassy prairie, but when I watch "Gunsmoke" I see every terrain imaginable: desert, mountains, grasslands, rolling hills, deep river gorges reminiscent of the Grand Canyon... the only thing I don't specifically recall is thick woodland.

What is Kansas actually like?

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:49 am

In "Unforgiven" one of Little Bill's lawmen mention the unavailabity of 30-30 ammo. No wonder it is unavailable, the movie is set in the early 1880's, as evidenced by English Bob's discussion of the shooting of President Garfield.

I love this movie, but that line really irks me everytime I watch it. Especially since the firearms in the movie are diverse and appropriate to the time period.

Must have slipped through. I think Eastwood directed the Unforgiven and I understand he is rather fond of his firearms. Surprised he did not pick it up.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:20 am

AKIMBO -- Stand with the hands on the hips, and the elbows turned outward.

What your mom used to do when you messed up.

papabear · Post by **papabear** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:29 am

fordwannabe wrote:I was watching a Clint Walker movie last night(don't remember the name) and they said the hanging was being carried out on KJanuary 13th 1891 and all the prison guards had old beat up 1892's and 1894's winchesters. Oh well at least Clint Walker was in it. Tom

the move your thinking of is "More Dead Than Alive"

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:38 pm

Thanks Papabear that's the one. Tom

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:39 pm

44shooter wrote:In "Unforgiven" one of Little Bill's lawmen mention the unavailabity of 30-30 ammo. No wonder it is unavailable, the movie is set in the early 1880's, as evidenced by English Bob's discussion of the shooting of President Garfield.

I love this movie, but that line really irks me everytime I watch it. Especially since the firearms in the movie are diverse and appropriate to the time period.

OK, we both know they screwed up and really meant the .30-30 WCF. But for the sake of being a cross-grained old cuss I have to point out there really was a .30-30 cartridge on the market as early as 1880, according to Cartridges of the World.

It was the .30-30 Wesson developed by Frank Wesson and introduced in 1880. Several companies made components and loaded ammo, and I believe more than one company made rifles chambered for it. CotW listed it as being loaded with a 165 gr. lead bullet and 30 grains Fg powder for a velocity of 1250 fps. The .30-30 Wesson and the .30-30 WCF are in no way interchangeable.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:54 pm

Lawyer Daggit wrote: Must have slipped through. I think Eastwood directed the Unforgiven and I understand he is rather fond of his firearms. Surprised he did not pick it up.

Do you prefer to be called J.? or Noble? J. Noble? Or just Lawyer Daggit?

Whichever is fine by me.

First of all I'm not a great fan of The Unforgiven, and secondly I'm not a real big Eastwood fan.

i don't doubt Eastwood knows a good bit about guns, but he is no gun crank, and he is no friend of the 2nd Amendment.

I well remember hearing him tell reporters on one occasion "Just because I use guns in my movies doesn't mean I like them."

I would not bet real money, either way, that Eastwood knows the difference between a .30-30, a .300 Savage, or a .32-20.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:03 pm

I was watching an old "Bonanza" a few months ago. "Little Joe" was climbing up some rocks and in order to get between two big boulders, he threw the rifle a good twenty feet to the boulder he was trying to get to as he could not climb and carry the rifle at the same time. It went clanking very roughly to the other side. Anyway, he could not get to the other side and he went home and told "Paw" his rifle was up in the rocks. Paw says, "But Joe, you have to get the rifle, it was your favorite one".

Kind of a weird way to treat your "favorite rifle"-----------------Sixgun

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:21 pm

Otto,

Kansas isimpression has always been that Kansas is/was mostly grassy prairie in its original native state. Today it is mostly farm and ranch land but still contains grasslands, rolling hills, and thick woodlands.The woodlands are mostly in the eastern part but the rest of the state is becoming more wooded with time usually with invasive non-native species. Kansas has much beauty but it is subtle beauty and is appreciated by those who are keenly observent and are seeking the beauty. This beauty is normallly missed by the casual observer or those looking for spectacular beauty such as the badlands of the Dakotas, or the grandure of the Tetons or the Royal Gorge and Black Canyon in Colorado. But this is also a blessing as we will never be a great tourist attraction and have to deal with multitudes of people wanting to move here, because of our beauty, to escape other overpopulated areas

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:19 pm

Beaker, I worked on a ranch close to Lansing Ks along the Missouri River. Therewas some big hills there. I think driving down across the Flint Hills is real pretty country.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:45 pm

Otto wrote:
pdawg.shooter wrote:
Beaker wrote:It always cracked me up watching the old series Gunsmoke on TV. Marshell Dillon would be riding from Dodge City up to Hays City and in the background was a most impressive mountain range. I have been all over western and central Kansas and I have yet to stumble on that mountain range.
I live just east of Dodge City and I have never seen those mountains either!
I have always wondered:
My impression has always been that Kansas is mostly grassy prairie, but when I watch "Gunsmoke" I see every terrain imaginable: desert, mountains, grasslands, rolling hills, deep river gorges reminiscent of the Grand Canyon... the only thing I don't specifically recall is thick woodland.

What is Kansas actually like?

Out around here it is farm ground and prairie. Back then there weren't even any trees on the river. Old pics of Dodge show the river bare. Low hills and lots of grass then.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:41 pm

As I remember, driving east to west through Kansas once, it was about four hours of corn followed by about four hours of cattle.

Gobbler

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Pdwagshooter,

Yeah I forgot about the senic overlook just NE of Dodge on old US 50. Now that kind of scenery just cant be beat anywhere in the USA.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:24 pm

Beaker wrote:Otto,

Kansas isimpression has always been that Kansas is/was mostly grassy prairie in its original native state. Today it is mostly farm and ranch land but still contains grasslands, rolling hills, and thick woodlands.The woodlands are mostly in the eastern part but the rest of the state is becoming more wooded with time usually with invasive non-native species. Kansas has much beauty but it is subtle beauty and is appreciated by those who are keenly observent and are seeking the beauty. This beauty is normallly missed by the casual observer or those looking for spectacular beauty such as the badlands of the Dakotas, or the grandure of the Tetons or the Royal Gorge and Black Canyon in Colorado. But this is also a blessing as we will never be a great tourist attraction and have to deal with multitudes of people wanting to move here, because of our beauty, to escape other overpopulated areas

JerryB wrote:Beaker, I worked on a ranch close to Lansing Ks along the Missouri River. Therewas some big hills there. I think driving down across the Flint Hills is real pretty country.

pdawg.shooter wrote:Out around here it is farm ground and prairie. Back then there weren't even any trees on the river. Old pics of Dodge show the river bare. Low hills and lots of grass then.

Gobblerforge wrote:As I remember, driving east to west through Kansas once, it was about four hours of corn followed by about four hours of cattle.
Gobbler

Sounds like my kind of place. Anybody got a room to let, 50 cents?

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:45 pm

Otto,

Come on out, there is plenty of wide open space.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:51 pm

Beaker wrote:Otto,

Come on out, there is plenty of wide open space.

There's a reason for that, you know...

KSRtrd · Post by **KSRtrd** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:40 pm

I will take the big sky, wide rivers, and broad vistas here in the flint hills over any city, any day.

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:42 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:
Beaker wrote:Otto,

Come on out, there is plenty of wide open space.
There's a reason for that, you know...

Yeah, its so the deer and the antelope can play.

jjames · Post by **jjames** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:24 pm

The one that bother me recently was the Gunny saying he was shooting a Win 1886 30-30 when he was comparing black powder and smokeless ballistics when it was a 1894 and earlier in the show he was talking about the winchester 1887 and he had a Norinco. I would expect those guys to get gun identifications correct.

rhead · Post by **rhead** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:31 am

JB wrote:A Time For Killing is a western based during the civil war, yet the the confederate troops are armed with 1873 Colt revolvers and 92 Winchesters. I don't how the south lost with weapons that advanced!

Read "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:36 am

Doc Hudson wrote:
Lawyer Daggit wrote: Must have slipped through. I think Eastwood directed the Unforgiven and I understand he is rather fond of his firearms. Surprised he did not pick it up.
Do you prefer to be called J.? or Noble? J. Noble? Or just Lawyer Daggit?

Whichever is fine by me.

First of all I'm not a great fan of The Unforgiven, and secondly I'm not a real big Eastwood fan.

i don't doubt Eastwood knows a good bit about guns, but he is no gun crank, and he is no friend of the 2nd Amendment.

I well remember hearing him tell reporters on one occasion "Just because I use guns in my movies doesn't mean I like them."

I would not bet real money, either way, that Eastwood knows the difference between a .30-30, a .300 Savage, or a .32-20.

IIRC, Eastwood has an extensive collection of Rugers. I remember when he was asked about them one time, he stated, "Just because I collect guns, it doesn't mean I think every idiot should have one." I wasn't a big Clint Eastwood fan before hearing this, and that made me even less of one. What does he think makes him so priviledged as to be the only one to be able to collect guns? He's not even that good of an actor, anyway.

gak · Post by **gak** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:57 am

Shooter, not to proliferate this OT, but I don't think that's what Eastwood meant (the idiot comment). I would agree that not every idiot should have one (such a collection). Doesn't mean you or I, and I don't think he was intending to be elitist. There are a lot of "idiot" gun owners (wielders more like) that have no business...--and I think that's probably what he was referring to.

Back to (sorta) on topic. I seem to recall jet contrails on The Big Valley set in the 19th Century San Juaquin Valley. Don't think we've quite seen a '73 or '92 mixed with a Thompson (at least accidentally) but there've been some doozies!

JB · Post by JB » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:47 pm

rhead wrote:
JB wrote:A Time For Killing is a western based during the civil war, yet the the confederate troops are armed with 1873 Colt revolvers and 92 Winchesters. I don't how the south lost with weapons that advanced!

Read "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove.

The alternative history guy. I think I read one his books based upon England joining the south during the civil war and invading the U.S.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:27 pm

I'll try to stay sorta on topic with this one. I just think it's funny at all the gun goofs, period in the movies, especially in westerns. I laugh every time I see 30 or 40 shots come out of a Winchester or Colt without reloading. Now, being practical I know it would slow down the fast pace action sequences considerably if they were stopping every few seconds to reload, but it doesn't keep me from noticing it.

Don't know if I can recall a specific levergun goof off the top of my head, but I know I've seen a few over the years.