Buying Guns in Cal.(kind of long, sorry)

[jkbrea]

I've been laid up recovering from a knee surgery. With a lot of time to kill I decided to look into replacing a Winchester 94 30-30 I traded off. I found several on Gun Broker but just about every one refused to ship to California. It is getting so frustrating. I've bought before and the only difference is I send a copy of my FFL dealer's licence along with a CFD#. From what my FFL dealer said, it takes a couple minutes for the outside state to fill out a form and send one to DOJ and keep one for his records. I asked a GB dealer from Florida why he won't ship to Ca and this was his response. If any forum members are FFL holders, maybe you can clarify any of this.

Okay this is long and involved.
It is a new law that came into effect last year sometime.
An out of state FFL holder has to contact the state of California and get a form that has to
first be approved by the state before the firearm can be shipped. I do not remember the form #.
The shipping FFL holder has to pay to have the form approved. If the form is not approved
the firearm can not be shipped to California and the FFL holder is out of money.
Then a certified copy of the approved form must be sent with the firearm to the receiving FFL holder.
If it is a long gun it can go regular UPS Ground. If it is a handgun it has to be shipped 2nd Day Air UPS.
Well that isn't the bad part. It gets harder for non-FFL holders. Under U.S. Federal law a non-FFL holder
can ship a firearm; but the firearm must be shipped to a FFL holder and they have to include a copy of their DL.
So if a non-FFL holder sells a firearm on GunBroker to a buyer in California they have to pay even more because
they have to go through a local FFL holder to get the form filled out and the firearm shipped. So then you have
the cost of using the FFL holder's license added to the cost of the form to ship to California plus the cost of the
shipping itself.
So the cost for a FFL holder with shipping ends up to be around $200 added to the cost of the firearm.
For a non-FFL holder the cost has risen to between $225-$250 to ship the firearm.
Then you have the list of firearms that are banned in the state of California. The seller has to get a list
of those firearms before they can even put a listing on GunBroker if they plan to allow sales to California.

Now ammo is not as bad. Sellers can still ship ammo to California without it going to an FFL holder.
Except the greater Los Angels area, Oakland, San Francisco and San Diago. Ammo must be shipped
to a Class 01 or 03 FFL holder. I have actually shipped ammo to California and yes it has gone to 01 or 03
FFL Dealers for their customers.

So I hope this is as clear as mud now. The State of California is making it almost impossible to ship firearms
into the state. I have no idea how the shops are doing it when the order from suppliers. Must be increasing
the cost of firearms to the point where no one can afford them. I think the muddling of the waters in California
was done on purpose to stop the shipping of legal firearms into the state by law abiding citizens.

[Modoc ED]

We've been over this a gazillion times. It's not as bad as it appears on it's face. The best thing to do is to get a CA FFL dealer to actually handle the transfer FFL to FFL. Still a little complicated that way but very doable.

What ya got to to watch out for in CA is face-to-face (FTF) sales. You can get in trouble very fast doing this. We have a guy in the Classifieds that keeps insisting on doing FTF sales. He's been cautioned but keeps it up anyway. Won't be long before he's turned in to CA DOJ.

[jkbrea]

I beleive many dealers in most states are misinformed or maybe just overly cautious about doing business in Ca. not wanting to risk their FFL. Can't say that I blame them but from what a GB dealer I deat with out of Texas told me, they are missing out on a lot of business due to bad information.

[KCSO]

And some are just so disgusted with CA that they don't want to do business there. I gave up on CA when I bought a batch of CHP wheel guns and they came marked NOT TO BE SOLD IN CA. It's too bad the good folks there are having problems and it's too bad that the big cities make the rules but for me not doing business with CA is a political statment. I won't buy new S and W guns for the same reason.

[alnitak]

I think the muddling of the waters in California
was done on purpose to stop the shipping of legal firearms into the state by law abiding citizens.

Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner!

I can't wait for the state, and it's progressive politicians and millions of illegals, to just fall into the ocean (I know...it isn't going to happen since it is just moving north and not west into the ocean; but, it's a nice thought anyways).

[Rusty]

Maybe someone should sue the state of CA. for interfering with interstate commerce?

[vancelw]

And some are just so disgusted with CA that they don't want to do business there.

I think this answer is "spot on" as well. Some folks just want to make a point by not selling to CA residents. I can see their point.

[JReed]

And some are just so disgusted with CA that they don't want to do business there.

I think this answer is "spot on" as well. Some folks just want to make a point by not selling to CA residents. I can see their point.

And what point would that be? That gun owners are unwilling to ban together and help out other gun owners? A very ignorant point to prove in my view. As to people being disgusted with CA most people I talk to that make the most noise have never been there nor have they done business with anyone in the state.

Ok before you flame me. Yes I know a few of you all have lived there and left with no desire to return. You came to that decision after personal experience and you have a right to your point of view. I grew up there and if it wasn't for the cost of living my wife and I would like to retire there. Do I agree with the politics no, do I vote yes, do I support organizations that have my interests at heart i.e guns and hunting yes. But unfortunately people like me and the other Californians on this board are the minority in the Golden State. If you all would like to help us in our fight then don't hamstring us by by bashing us. Voice your opinions to groups like the NRA and the like and encourage them to help us. California's political environment is driven more by out of state interest groups then it is by the people living there.

[exdetsgt]

I'm glad I read this. I was on the point of shipping UPS a Marlin 336c 30-30 carbine to a friend of mine in Northern California. Actually to a FFL gunshop near his town. They're cheaper here than in CA; now I know why, and I seriously don't want to get in trouble with the Feds.

Bottom line, if he wants it bad enough he can come out here and get it.

[vancelw]

And some are just so disgusted with CA that they don't want to do business there.

I think this answer is "spot on" as well. Some folks just want to make a point by not selling to CA residents. I can see their point.

And what point would that be? That gun owners are unwilling to ban together and help out other gun owners? A very ignorant point to prove in my view. As to people being disgusted with CA most people I talk to that make the most noise have never been there nor have they done business with anyone in the state.

Ok before you flame me. Yes I know a few of you all have lived there and left with no desire to return. You came to that decision after personal experience and you have a right to your point of view. I grew up there and if it wasn't for the cost of living my wife and I would like to retire there. Do I agree with the politics no, do I vote yes, do I support organizations that have my interests at heart i.e guns and hunting yes. But unfortunately people like me and the other Californians on this board are the minority in the Golden State. If you all would like to help us in our fight then don't hamstring us by by bashing us. Voice your opinions to groups like the NRA and the like and encourage them to help us. California's political environment is driven more by out of state interest groups then it is by the people living there.

You'll get no flames from me. Words alone can't make me mad.

The point may indeed be ignorant, but it is their point. I've had several dealers express it to me. I said I see their point, I didn't say I agree with it. If someone has a value that they stick to, I can't help but admire them, even if I don't necessarily agree with their position.

I've spent some time in CA, mainly as guest of Uncle Sam in the Corps. Very nice pretty state...too bad it's infested! (Ok, that was a dig. )

[JReed]

And some are just so disgusted with CA that they don't want to do business there.

I think this answer is "spot on" as well. Some folks just want to make a point by not selling to CA residents. I can see their point.

You'll get no flames from me. Words alone can't make me mad.

The point may indeed be ignorant, but it is their point. I've had several dealers express it to me. I said I see their point, I didn't say I agree with it. If someone has a value that they stick to, I can't help but admire them, even if I don't necessarily agree with their position.

I've spent some time in CA, mainly as guest of Uncle Sam in the Corps. Very nice pretty state...too bad it's infested! (Ok, that was a dig. )

I hear ya Brother. I just get a bit wound up when I see posts that turn into CA bashing. You are right it is a beautiful state and yes it is infested. Witch is why we need the help of you all to keep fighting the retards in Sacramento.

[Mike D.]

The simple answer to avoiding the greedy and self-important 01FFLs in CA is to get yourself an C&R license. It's cheap and easy to apply for one and it allows you to buy many older guns and have then sent directly to you. No middleman, no excessive fees, and NO taxes. If you are looking for Winchesters, you'll have be satisfied with pre-1964 models, but who wants the later stuff, anyway? Some commemorative models are on the C&R list, too.

[Gun Smith]

AMEN, Mike D, I've bought and sold many C&R eligible guns out of state when I lived in California. The license paid for itself three times over on the first purchase!

[yoteassasin]

I am genuinely saddened at the infestation of morons in the late great golden state. But there is hope I invite all the members on this site to visit the site of the calguns foundation where they are hard at work to force California to incorporate the 2nd amendment and to eliminate California's moronic gun laws so that they will never spread to other free states. unfortunately there is alot of misinformation spread regarding cal gun laws and figuring it out is some times the last thing an out of state dealer or even an instate dealer wants to do. erring on the side of "caution" is a great mistake and gives the anti gunners more power than they have. I implore all who deal in or with California follow the letter of the law to to the "t" and remember law is black and white there is no semi-legal or semi-illegal it is only legal or illegal please take a look at these links as i think they will educate you but give you hope that the fight not over the anti-gunners have NOT won
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
http://www.calgunlaws.com/

[Old Time Hunter]

The simple answer to avoiding the greedy and self-important 01FFLs in CA is to get yourself an C&R license. It's cheap and easy to apply for one and it allows you to buy many older guns and have then sent directly to you. No middleman, no excessive fees, and NO taxes. If you are looking for Winchesters, you'll have be satisfied with pre-1964 models, but who wants the later stuff, anyway? Some commemorative models are on the C&R list, too.

Mike, I do have a C&R but it does not give me carte blanche access, nor even close to the same transfer of ATF exempt guns in other states. Then again if the recipient or shipper in Ca is willing to assume all transaction fees along with making sure all proper protocals are dealt with, I will still work with my brethern in California. Just a fore instance, a 1897 Mauser "Broomhandle" is considered a "banned" weapon in California requiring additional steps to be taken to transfer. Makes things tougher and unfortunately the rest of the country doesn't need the extra hassle.

[86er]

I did not read every reply - but I did see one slice of wrong information. A private individual can send a gun to a California FFL direct. This includes a sale or repair. In the event of a repair, the CA FFL can send the gun straight back to the owner (who doesn't have an FFL). A private person in CA can send a gun to an FFL in another state without any CA DOJ paperwork. Only FFL holders are subject to the the CA DOJ forms, not private individuals.

[Gun Smith]

You are right about a California non FFL holder shipping guns to an (out of state) FFL holder. The problem is most FFL holders will NOT accept guns from non FFL people in California, or any other state. The argument, by the FFL's, is that it opens a door for stolen guns to be moved by potential criminals without going to the local California (or other state) FFL to examine.

[ornery]

Just an aside....my dad was a dealer in CA., as was I. Dad was in business there for 52 years. If the dead know, he's rolling over in his grave.
I actually had DOJ call me and tell me to withhold delivery on a pistol.. they said there was a discrepancy with the buyer. When he gave me the name and number I laughed until I cried He said,"The buyers name is "Ornery"! I said, "Hey dummy, I hate to wreck your day, but that's me!" "I'M THE DEALER!"

Are you ready for the "discrepancy"? I was still in the computer as a LEO in Montana! HEY!!! There's a REAL crime! Don't sell a gun to a COP!!!

The CA. DOJ? California? Spare me!

He gave me the big woops and I told him it would be nice if they kept their computer updated! He said it was an error...THEN he said the system was so antiquated and full of holes that they were lucky ANYTHING came up correctly. Then he said that eventually they would have EVERYBODY'S INFORMATION ON THEIR COMPUTER AND COULD TRACK EVERYONE AND FINALLY BE IN CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I moved back to MT.......

The only advice I can give to anybody there..."Vote with yer feet!!!"

To those of you living outside of that place...be kind, offer sanctuary to your friends there.

When things get REAL ugly, I have offered safe haven to friends and family. I ain't rich or nothin', just tryin' to do the Christian thing.

As to the selling of guns to CA.......if the guys livin' there want to pay the price and register themselves and their hardware with their "masters", that's their choice .....

Now I know you fellers don't know me, but I'm telling you straight. I know it's basically here-say, but it is the truth.

Do what you want, think what you want.

The day will come.......