Rossi's New .30-30? This one Really IS out of left field!

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:20 am

Gents,

I thought that Rossi's new "Rio Grande" levergun was completely unexpected:

http://www.rossiusa.com/2010newcatalog/?catalog_page=6

This one is moreso:

http://www.rossiusa.com/2010newcatalog/images/04_5.jpg

...from this page:

http://www.rossiusa.com/2010newcatalog/?catalog_page=4

Shawn

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:58 am

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:35 am

Actually, The Rio Grande is a nice looking lever gun, but is it any better than a good 'ole American made marlin

willygene · Post by **willygene** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:50 am

looks like a marlin you would think they would have copied the 94 since they do the 92 oh well.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:44 am

The Rio Grande sure looks a lot like the Marlin

Now I'm guessing the wood stock is wood, but is the camo stock wood or plastic?

I guess the obvious question is
Whats the quality like and how much do they want for it?

As for that other gun they had there, you can have it.

As for them selecting the 336 to copy instead of the 94 Win, I would think that would have been done in consideration of the fact that most modern hunters these days scope their rifles.

Halfbreed · Post by **Halfbreed** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:57 am

I don't know why but I find the "Circuit Judge" funky cool. The smooth bore would make a fun dove gun.

Premo · Post by **Premo** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:59 am

Halfbreed,

The feds regulate migratory bird hunting, dove, and set a 3 shell capacity limit for hunting. So no dove hunting with the circuit judge.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:06 am

Premo wrote:Halfbreed,

The feds regulate migratory bird hunting, dove, and set a 3 shell capacity limit for hunting. So no dove hunting with the circuit judge.

They'll let you use a plug in a shotgun mag right? I think it would be pretty easy to make a couple of plugs similar to a rubber donut pipe plug.

Back to the OP:

I'll not be buying one anytime soon. I'll just let them work the kinks out for the next decade or so.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:49 am

I don't think I would like the Circuit Judge for a hunting gun. Your left ear is going to be pretty close to that barrel/cylinder gap. Would have to wear hearing protection at all times, which wouldn't be much fun in the dove field.

The 30-30 is not a bad looking gun. Will be interested to hear about price and quality.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:05 am

The lever is obviously a Marlin clone. Around here Marlin 336 variations are relatively inexpensive, and probably in less demand when compared to Marlins other leverguns. I don't get why they would go head to head with Marlin with that model. They surely have the engineering and manufacturing capability to come up with something like a beefed up Model 92 available in 500 S&W. Now they might just be able to sell some of those crazy revolver/rifle/shotgun things. Not to me mind you but to somebody.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:08 am

if the quality is there, and the price is right, the Rio Grande .30-30 ought to do pretty well.

The Circuit Judge?

IMNSHO it is just about as useful as teats on a boar hog.

To prevent getting burned by the barrel/cylinder flash, a shooter is going to have to keep his support hand behind the cylinder. This will produce a rather funky stance not noted for great accuracy.

If the barrel is rifled, it will ruin the pattern of that miserable half-ounce load of shot. IMO the slug, which should work well enough is much too light to be truly useful.

If the barrel is not rifled, accuracy with the .45 lC cartidges should be pretty lousy. Even with rifling, I'd e surprised if accuracy is good enough for bragging. Remember lots of .357 Mag and .44 RemMag revolvers choke from the extended freebore enjoyed by shooting .38 and .44 Special cartridge in the magnum chambers. if accuracy suffers from 1/10" of addditional freebore, or bullet jump if you prefer, how can an inch of bullet jump fail to adversely effect accuracy.

IMO the entire Judge line has one useful place and one only. It is my opinion that other than a tackle-box snake gun the whole line is useless. Personally, I'd prefer a .44 Spl or RemMag revolver loaded with shotshells for that use. The shot charge is about equal and the handguns are lot less ungainly.

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:47 am

Doc Hudson wrote:if the quality is there, and the price is right, the Rio Grande .30-30 ought to do pretty well.

The Circuit Judge?

IMNSHO it is just about as useful as teats on a boar hog.

To prevent getting burned by the barrel/cylinder flash, a shooter is going to have to keep his support hand behind the cylinder. This will produce a rather funky stance not noted for great accuracy.

If the barrel is rifled, it will ruin the pattern of that miserable half-ounce load of shot. IMO the slug, which should work well enough is much too light to be truly useful.

If the barrel is not rifled, accuracy with the .45 lC cartidges should be pretty lousy. Even with rifling, I'd e surprised if accuracy is good enough for bragging. Remember lots of .357 Mag and .44 RemMag revolvers choke from the extended freebore enjoyed by shooting .38 and .44 Special cartridge in the magnum chambers. if accuracy suffers from 1/10" of addditional freebore, or bullet jump if you prefer, how can an inch of bullet jump fail to adversely effect accuracy.

IMO the entire Judge line has one useful place and one only. It is my opinion that other than a tackle-box snake gun the whole line is useless. Personally, I'd prefer a .44 Spl or RemMag revolver loaded with shotshells for that use. The shot charge is about equal and the handguns are lot less ungainly.

+1. Neither the Judge or that rifle is on my list ... ever.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:02 am

At least, now, everybody will know how to answer those intrepid nimrods questions - ya know, those who are looking for a synthetic stock for their Marlin.

.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:42 pm

The lever gun reminds me of the ill-fated and unlamented Mossberg offering of a few years back.

I see the Circuit Judge has some kind of flash shield at the front of the cyliner. Wonder where it directs the gasses to...

I'll pass -- on both.

crs · Post by **crs** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:24 pm

Thanks for the post.
What fun it will be to see what comes next.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:05 pm

Why get a 5-shot .410 revolver, when you can have a 12-shot 12 gauge revolver...

Seriously though, the Taurus .410 revolver looks like a fun gun, and probably as practical as any other .410 repeater would be! (...plus doesn't need the cylinder-gap shielding the 12-gauge requires.)

On their "336" clone, it sure is odd how the underside of the receiver has the much larger protrusion for the lever attachment; wonder why?

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:08 pm

I kind of like the Rio Grande, assuming it's not cluttered up with 14 safeties that can't be removed. It sort of puts me in mind of the older Mossbergs, which were excellent 30-30's.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:31 pm

Sarge,

Besides the trigger block safety actuated by the lever that was original to the design, it has the cross bolt safety and the Taurus hammer lock safety.

That's about two to many for me.

Joe

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:53 pm

J Miller wrote:Sarge,

Besides the trigger block safety actuated by the lever that was original to the design, it has the cross bolt safety and the Taurus hammer lock safety.

That's about two to many for me.

Joe

Amen, brother!

Sarge wrote:I kind of like the Rio Grande, assuming it's not cluttered up with 14 safeties that can't be removed. It sort of puts me in mind of the older Mossbergs, which were excellent 30-30's.

Weren't the older Mossbergs also Marlin clones?

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:15 pm

AJMD429, The protrusion under the receiver you're referring to wouldn't be the hinge point for the lever would it?

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:27 pm

Sarge wrote:I kind of like the Rio Grande, assuming it's not cluttered up with 14 safeties that can't be removed. It sort of puts me in mind of the older Mossbergs, which were excellent 30-30's.

If you really think the Mossberg leverguns were "excellent" .30-30s..., Rossi has just the gun for you...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:29 pm

gundownunder wrote:AJMD429, The protrusion under the receiver you're referring to wouldn't be the hinge point for the lever would it?

I think he's referring to the unsightly/unhandy BULGE on the receiver's underside, just forward of the lever...

Seems like we already covered this gun, in depth, not too long ago...

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:31 pm

To echo UncleBuck, why buy a foreign-made 336 clone when you can buy an authentic 336 that's made here in America? That's the kind of thinking that runs American companies out of business!

bogie

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:40 pm

gundownunder wrote:As for them selecting the 336 to copy instead of the 94 Win, I would think that would have been done in consideration of the fact that most modern hunters these days scope their rifles.

I believe that might be because the Marlin is simpler than the Winchester. Fewer machining cuts to make, few parts.

Edited to add: And, do I detect a lack of a cross-bolt safety?

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:46 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:
Sarge wrote:I kind of like the Rio Grande, assuming it's not cluttered up with 14 safeties that can't be removed. It sort of puts me in mind of the older Mossbergs, which were excellent 30-30's.
If you really think the Mossberg leverguns were "excellent" .30-30s..., Rossi has just the gun for you...

I only owned one example Buck, a Model 472, which came as a freebie 'shoebox gun' from a guy who was sick of trying to reassemble it.

http://www.leverguns.com/leverguns/moss ... del472.htm

I got it running and shot it alongside my old 336T with every reload and factory load the Marlin got fed. That particular Mossberg was every bit as good as the Mariln and had a better trigger to boot.
.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:03 pm

I'm not at all interested in the rio grand. I don't see the point really considering there are so many good used Marlins and all of the new Marlin models.

I like their 92 clones but this just seems redundant.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:59 pm

Griff,

Look at the picture you posted. Lower right hand corner: Cross bolt safety and the Taurus security system with is that screw lock thing in the hammer.

Joe

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:20 pm

Sarge,
I have one of those old Mossbergs,
it " shoulders " the best of any of any full sized rifle cartridge lever gun I have ever shot.
I think it is the crescent butt.

Jacko · Post by **Jacko** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:59 am

I said on another forum that had a thread about the new Rossi line up that I sense a lot "American made pride, and there's nothing wrong with that

and a fair degree of Bias against imports

From my perspective Marlins, Winchesters, Rossi's etc are all imports, they all have there reported problems and having owned at least one of each at some stage reckon they are all excellant firearms, at least mine have been. My Rossi M92 is a great rifle, as is my Marlin 1894 and my M62 Winchester which got stolen, is one better than the other -no. Each has it's strengths and weakness' and fills the need I use it for very well.

A new Marlin 336 cost's us over $1100, if the Rossi Rio Grande comes in at $900 about $100 more than it's M92's and proves a reliable firearm it will sell well at Marlins expence, an extra $200 perhaps to sink into that $600 Leupold VX2 and mounts.

I'm a form over function fella and provided the ugly duckling Wizard in particular proves up to scratch, the concept of an off the shelf barrel/ calibre change at a reasonable price is an intriguing concept. Thompson Centre Encores/ Contenders in this country cost a bomb, H & R's barrel fitting service for the Handi rifle is not an option here so if the Rossi Wizard makes it way to Australia I will be checking them out.

Always liked revolving carbine rifles, they look cool but yes I gotta agree , not very practical. I guess a lot of folks like there Taurus Judge pistols, the marketing folks must have done their research???? I sat next to a fella at the range a while ago with a beatifully stocked and case hardened .357 Italian clone revolving rifle and got hot gases and powder spat all over me every time he pulled the trigger, cured me!

Don't worry folks my next rifle is going to be a 45.70 Handi rifle, american made, let you know about the unbiased pride of owning it soon enough

regards Jacko

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:25 am

gundownunder wrote:
AJMD429, The protrusion under the receiver you're referring to wouldn't be the hinge point for the lever would it?
I think he's referring to the unsightly/unhandy BULGE on the receiver's underside, just forward of the lever...

It is the hinge for the lever. The Marlin one is less conspicuous because it's a little smaller and they have blended its appearance in a little better by putting more metal in the front of the lever ahead of the trigger guard.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:24 am

I'm definitely guilty of being rabidly Pro-American when spending my money, I won't apologize for that. I'm also guilty of thinking every gun manufacturer must be marketing their product strictly for the U.S. I'm sure market restrictions, tariffs, and firearm regulations in other countries could make a Marlin clone made outside the U.S. an attractive option. I (of course) am no marketing whiz, but Taurus sure seems to be selling their Judge model and its kind.

Nixterdemus · Post by **Nixterdemus** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:40 am

Were I to be drawn towards a 67-68 gauge, especially of revolving action, I most certainly would take the longer barrel and fine furniture, as opposed to that monstrosity referred to as a late 60's Pontiac muscle car.

If enough sell then maybe they'll introduce the revolving 28 gauge, District Judge/Territorial Judge and offer a special order 32 gauge, Gentleman English Bob Reveling Pheasant Flailer for the discriminating birding experts and fine firearm discerning aficionados...

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:55 am

It looks like the wood stock of that Marlin clone has a slimmer forearm than the real Marlins. Marlin never did get a clue about forearm slenderization--not even after numerous websites have comments about slimming down their fat front ends. Must be Rossi reads some of our stuff. That having been said, I wonder what this new model of theirs is really like, from an operational and quality standpoint. Their Winnie Model 92 clones seem to be liked by a lot of folks--particularly after the owners remove the dippylawyer saftey and replace the plastic follower.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:29 am

I never understood the revolver/rifle in original guns. The thought of having my arm in line with a GAP between the barrel and cylinder doesn't do it for me. The original colt r/r was not a success. Of course the gaps were probably larger, and black powder was the propellent, but still it's just not my idea of a good design.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Gun Smith wrote:I never understood the revolver/rifle in original guns. The thought of having my arm in line with a GAP between the barrel and cylinder doesn't do it for me. The original colt r/r was not a success. Of course the gaps were probably larger, and black powder was the propellent, but still it's just not my idea of a good design.

Colt issued a "Manual of Arms" with it's 1855 Revovling Rifles, which warned specifically AGAINST extending the support arm past the cylinder. The military veersions all had a couple of 'hooks,' one in front of and one behind the trigger guard, to position the support hand.

>As to the reliablity of the Mossberg 472, I have seen numerous examples, in which the cartridge stop has failed, in very short order, causing all kinds of grief, especially when the chips were down. The stop, as manufactured, was often too short for the task, and seemed to wear to the point of uselessness sooner than any other part of the gun. An easy 'fix' maybe, but one that shouldn't have to be done... Just lack of attention on the manufacturer's part.

> If Rossi's intent was to 'visually' blend in the lever pivot boss, I think they failed miserably in the handling department, which is of more use to me than the 'looks.'

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:31 pm

alnitak wrote:IMO the entire Judge line has one useful place and one only. It is my opinion that other than a tackle-box snake gun the whole line is useless. Personally, I'd prefer a .44 Spl or RemMag revolver loaded with shotshells for that use. The shot charge is about equal and the handguns are lot less ungainly.

Yep - I had a breakopen ".45 Colt/.410" that shot 15" groups at 25 yards with .45 Colt ammo; +P rounds shrunk the group to maybe 10".

OTOH for a 'non-gun' person who wants a 'bedroom gun' for protection, and will likely never handload ammunition, I can see the 'Judge' Revolver as useful. I think a faceful of #2 shot would discourage most bad guys, although if bad guy is not already enraged, he will be after that, so the homeowner had better be ready for some close-in followup shots. I wonder how many 'non-gun' people actually can develop that mindset, vs. standing and watching to see what the bad guy does after half-blinded and in pain. At least it should be easier to retain for the shooter than a long-gun would be.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:28 pm

Gun Smith wrote:I never understood the revolver/rifle in original guns. The thought of having my arm in line with a GAP between the barrel and cylinder doesn't do it for me. The original colt r/r was not a success. Of course the gaps were probably larger, and black powder was the propellent, but still it's just not my idea of a good design.

Actually the revolving rifles were rather successful.

The U Army and US Marines bought some hundreds of the Paterson-made revolving rifles and used them to good effect during the Seminole Wars of the 1830's and 1840's.

I also seem to remember a couple of regiments amed with Colt Revolving Rifles during the Mexican War and I know for a fact several regiments were so armed during the early days of The War Between the States.

Perhaps the revolving rifle concept was rather less than a perfect design, but in the cap-and-ball era, it was the only repeating rifle on the market. Sure it lacked the power and accuracy of an Enfield or Springfield Rifle-Musket, but it can shoot five times in the time it takes a good man to fire two shots with a Rifle-Musket.

In addition to the hooks mentioned by Buck, I've seen illustrations or Infantrymen armed with Colt Revolving Rifles equipped with a palm-rest below the front of the triggerguard. It looked a lot like the palm-rest often found on Schutzen-styled rifles.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not touting the use of cartridge firing revolving rifle, see my earlier comments. I'm just saying that in their day the revolving rifle concept was not only innovative but quite useful. However, IMO, that "day" ended the day B. Tyler Henry perfected the Jennings/Volcanic Rifle designs and produced the Model 1860 Henry Repeating Rifle.

As I understand it, the cartridge firing revolving rifles produced by both Colt and Remington failed to offer any significant competition to Winchester and soon were dropped from the lines. Too bad Rossi didn't pay attention to their experiences.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:37 pm

when are the gun companies gonna wise up and make something people want? i'd bet a pre-64 94 src. without all the safety stuff, chambered in the old and new calibers would sell. 38-55, 30wcf, 35 rem, 356,444, 450 marlin and .338 marlin. i'd buy a few

Nixterdemus · Post by **Nixterdemus** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:54 pm

Well, companies are gonna roll the dice at times. Personally, I wouldn't give you two bits for a Taurus Judge, yet some folks love them death. It fires 45 Colt and .410 shells. Reminds me of the Blues Brothers walking into Bob's Country Bunker.

"What kind of music do you usually have here?"

"Oh, we got both kinds. We got country *and* western."

To each their own.

Taurus seems to have done well w/Judge so Rossi, being part of Braztech, takes a shot at stretching the concept.

If the price drops enough it has the potential to be a fun gun. Ammo isn't going to be cheap.

I would be more interested if they did make it in an oddball gauge like 32. The difference between a 20 & a 12 gauge is roughly the difference between the .410 and the 32 gauge.

I speculate that would be about as heavy as you could practically take a DA revolving cylinder and would be happy to have it in a five shot to reduce the weight and improve the performance.

The next time you come up w/crazy idea for a firearm, don't give up hope.

Every now and then they'll throw something out there that might well fill your niche.

If they get in under 4 bills I might snag one just to light a fire under the tree rats.

Practical? Nope, far from it, but who sez ya gotta be practical all the time?

Beretta still has their Buntline/Stampede Carbine w/18" brl and buttstock, but geeze Louise CDNN is asking 589 clams and acts like that's a deal.

Now if it was an 8 or 10 rnd cylinder and they market it as the Lil' Gatlin'...

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:14 pm

I'm with Halfbreed, I think the Circuit Judge if funky cool also. At first I thought it was just weird, but the more I look at it the more I like just because it is different. We(us gun nuts) do have the habit of being very conservitive and closed minded about what we like and accept, myself included. I tend to buy mostly lever actions and single action revolvers, but I might buy this just on a whim.