Is There Any Reason to Buy a 45/70 Marlin Micro-Groove

[Idiot]

When it comes to accurately shooting 45/70 plainbase cast bullets, is Ballard Cut rifling really superior to Micro-Grove rifling? If there is a real and significant positive difference, and Marlin is making its 1895 with Ballard rifling, (except for shooting jacketed bullets) is there any reason to even consider buying a 1895 with Micro-Grove rifling?

[Hobie]

Is there any reason not to? Oh, maybe nearly a generation of ill-conceived bashing of Microgroove rifling vis-a-vis cast bullets.

[Pisgah]

The idea that MicroGroove won't work with cast bullets is laughable. I'll admit, it does seem to take a bit more attention to bullet diameter and velocity than Ballard-style rifling needs (although for best accuracy you need to consider the same factors with either). But in my fairly limited experience with shooting cast in a MicroGroove 1895, it's really no harder to get good loads with the many-tiny-grooves model than it is with the few-big-grooves version. I certainly would not let one or the other type of rifling affect my buying decision if a decent 1895 were offered to me at a good price.

[nemhed]

The best reasons for buying a micro-grooved Marlin is someone selling it cheap because it has a micro-grooved barrel, and most of the micro-grooved leverguns don't have the silly cross-bolt safety

[Blaine]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

[Warhawk]

I think all the pre-safety guns were migro groove, that would be an excellent reason.

[Old Savage]

Mine was very accurate with both cast and Factory. In fact I got one group at 100 yds of 3/8" for three with Speer 400 gr bullets but the cast were about as accurate the average group.

[76/444]

I once read a Marlin ad,... profusely publishing the positive attributes of the Micro Grove barrel. It has been awhile,... and if memory serves me,..... it touched upon attributes like.............

the micro groove rifling..........

GREATLY IMPROVES PRESSURE
CAN BE CLEANED MUCH EASIER
IMPROVES ACCURACY
GREATLY IMPROVE LIFE TIME OF USE

Those are not any where near the exact words used in the ad, but, close enough for my poor memory.

After reading it, I couldn't help being reminded of another weapon manufacturer that made similar claims about their barrels. Actually a couple of world class weapons manufacturers,.... Heckler and Koche, and Glock,... and they were both touting the fantastic attributes of the POLYGONAL rifling they use in their weapons, in very similar terms to Marlin's claims about Micro Groove barrels.

Micro Groove rifling,... after close in hand examination, ... is only a half step away from polygonal, in my opinion. And I can say without any hesitation, it IS just as accurate as any ballard or button rifling I have owned, and IS by far the most easy I have ever had to clean and maintain.


just one man's opinion

[tdoor]

When it comes to accurately shooting 45/70 plainbase cast bullets, is Ballard Cut rifling really superior to Micro-Grove rifling? If there is a real and significant positive difference, and Marlin is making its 1895 with Ballard rifling, (except for shooting jacketed bullets) is there any reason to even consider buying a 1895 with Micro-Grove rifling?

I have a MicroGroove 1894 "Sporter" in 44Mag. It is one of the few calibers I don't cast for, but I've used some ~250 grain store bought cast sized .430 and they work just fine.

tdoor

[AJMD429]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

Man, when I shoot those .431's in my .45-70, they don't stabilize - micro-groove rifling must be too shallow to engage the bullet...

[Old Savage]

From the shooting I have done, my ballard rifling model is a bit less accurate - certainly not more accurate.

[Hobie]

I used to shoot the soft swaged bullets in my old .44 Mag 1894 Carbine and get cloverleafs at 50 yards. One other point, if the .22 LR barrels are accurate...

[Grizz]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

uh, Blaine.... did you read the topic Title?

43 cal will rattle pretty loud in a 48 cal barrel. No?

[Old Savage]

48 Cal. ?????????????????????????? Is this a trick question?

[piller]

My best reason, if I have the money and there is one available, then buy it and enjoy.

[76/444]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

Man, when I shoot those .431's in my .45-70, they don't stabilize - micro-groove rifling must be too shallow to engage the bullet...

[Nath]

I used to shoot the soft swaged bullets in my old .44 Mag 1894 Carbine and get cloverleafs at 50 yards. One other point, if the .22 LR barrels are accurate...

Hobie, did Marlin make micro groove 22 barrels?

Nath.

[1886]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

Man, when I shoot those .431's in my .45-70, they don't stabilize - micro-groove rifling must be too shallow to engage the bullet...

I was waiting for this reply. 1886.

[Swampman]

I used to shoot the soft swaged bullets in my old .44 Mag 1894 Carbine and get cloverleafs at 50 yards. One other point, if the .22 LR barrels are accurate...

Hobie, did Marlin make micro groove 22 barrels?

Nath.

Yes most of the are micro groove.

[2X22]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

uh, Blaine.... did you read the topic Title?

43 cal will rattle pretty loud in a 48 cal barrel. No?

Or even a .458 cal barrel...........

2x22

[Idiot]

No difference? Among other noted writers, Taffin often writes that to achieve cast bullet good accuracy in micro-groove barrels one must:
1. Have the bullet sized to the barrel (no off-the-shelf stuff).
2. Have the bullet gas checked (no plain flat or bevel based stuff).
3. Load it to above a specific muzzle velocity.
In addition, Marlin has repented from using micro-groove barrels in its big bore lever actions. The catalog now only lists Ballard rifling.


It seems from the responses that the assertion that "micro-groove barrels are a bit fussy when it comes to shooting cast bullets" is nothing more than a wives tale - an ill-conceived wives tale at that.

Well, I guess that orphaned Marlin has found a home after all.

[nemhed]

Well make sure you post some pictures of that little baby when you get her home!

[KSRtrd]

You guys have won me over! I bought a '76 made modl 336 today and, the wiff gave me a model 80 for Christmas. Guess I have turned and now no longer a member of the microgroove haters club. I bought older seemed to me the wood looked better and the actions seemed to me a bit smoother. I would be all over that 45-70 if I was you.

[Swampman]

I had my 1976 made .30-30 336 out Sunday and it's a great shooter. You're gonna like it.

[madman4570]

I like those Micro-Groove barrels just fine. Only thing maybe not to buy one would be for the stuff like Garrett's 540 grain hammerheads and such?????? (1/20 vs 1/32 twist rate)???

But, I am certainly no expert on this topic,trust me!

[KSRtrd]

Thanks Levergunner 3.0 Traded my Winchester M310 for it.

[AJMD429]

Shoot them cast at .431 and you will zero problem. My buddy shoots them a .430 and claims no problem, but he keeps his MV around 1500fps.

uh, Blaine.... did you read the topic Title?
43 cal will rattle pretty loud in a 48 cal barrel. No?

Or even a .458 cal barrel...........
2x22

I guess we're all too giddy to type, due to the Massachucetts results, huh...

[Grizz]

48 Cal. ?????????????????????????? Is this a trick question?

ya caught me! meant .458 but didn't dial correctly.

[Grizz]

something like that. I usually catch my own typos before y'all do, but I got myself good today.

I shoot gas checked bullets in my guns, but the one mold I have is plain base, haven't used it but it's Ranch Dog's ~420g. I figure if I HAD TO CAST to shoot, that'd be a reasonably good all-round bullet. I can move it from sub-sonic to 1900 fps. That'll cover a lot of ground and critter sizes.

I think that with the right alloy and lube they're not gonna foul. I've rarely cleaned my guide gun much less brushed the bore and the grooves aren't choked up with lead yet. I guess that's the real benefit of those DEEP Ballard grooves!

Grizz

[2X22]

I guess we're all too giddy to type, due to the Massachucetts results, huh...

I reckon that's to be expected, there was quite a lot of hootin' and hollerin' around here last night, and that's just between the wife and I and 2 dogs!

2x22

[Chuck 100 yd]

My Marlin 1895 .45-70 with MG will shoot Cast as tight as
jacketed with selected loads. With a 350 gr. Lyman GC bullet (.359) over 31 gr. IIRC of 5744 and they all touch each other at 50yd. Iron sights. I cant see the target well enough at 100 to make any definitive tests at that range with irons.
My Marlin Cowboy 1895 with Ballard rifling shoots just the same.

[6pt-sika]

I've spent the last 5 years working with cast bullets in variouse Micro Grooved Marlin's !

Have a pair of older 1895's . One is of 1978 vintage and I got that one from Boge Quinn on here . The other is a first year manufacture from 1972 .
I shoot WW alloy only both handle the Ranch Dog 460-350GC easily no problems as long as I size at .459" . When I go to the Ranch Dog 460-425GC the 1978 rifle prefers water quenched bullets made from the WW alloy . And I am hoping it will handle a couple more molds I have in the works of 450 , 475 and 500 grains all GC of course .

As to the 444 Micro Groove I've spent far far far more time casting and loading for this one then the 45-70 . Anyway in the Micro Groove barrels on a 444 the biggest hinderance is not the Micro Groove rifling but rather the slow twist as compared to the twist in the newer Ballard barrels . However we can get around that to a degree .
It has been my findings that you can take the slow twist Micro 444 barrel and shoot cast bullets made from WW's and aircooled up to about 315 grains no problem , after that you need to water quench the WW alloy and push them kinda hard . I have proved this to myself with bullets up to 375 grains in about 13 different Micro groove slow twist 444 Marlin's that I own !

Now when you get to a 400 grain cast bullet for the 444 you have finally found the area the slow twist Micro barrel cannot handle and of course I have a ballard rifled 444 for just that weight bullet . But then how many folks do you know that have a need for such a bullet in that rifle ! Mine is more for play then actual use or need !

Anyway the Micro thing is pure BS until you get to the outermost parameters of the cast bullet equation !

Had great results with Micro barrels in 30-30 , 357 , 356 WIN , 375 WIN , 41 MAG , 44 MAG , 444 , 45-70 and 35 REM .

[nemhed]

Just one final note before I lock this thread, whoops, sorry for a second there I thought I was a moderator. The current Marlin 336 is still with a micro-groove barrel, but the XLR line is advertised as ballard cut rifling.

[stretch]

What Hobie said.....

[Idiot]

Great information - thanks a lot.

Grizz, Chuck 100 Yd, and 6pt-sika: Thanks for sharing your experience - it is invaluable. I asked about plain base bullets and got the word back that gas checks, gas checks, gas checks are what work - that seems unanimous and I hear the message loud and clear.

I am a fan of the 444 Marlin as well and have a micro-groove one sitting on the shelf. I don't expect to shoot much cast out of it however. I've spent the last year grubbing and stashing as many boxes of Hornady's light magnum load as I can come upon. I expect to shoot them up before reloading for this rifle. As far as the 45/70 I will acquire soon (I'm in between 45/70s), it will get a steady diet of Grizz' light load and a slew of whatever cheap off-the-shelf hard cast bullets I can find. Like I said earlier, I mostly shoot cement blocks and rocks with my 45/70s. Spending an afternoon of busting rocks in the desert with a hard hitting 45/70 is the definition of plinking heaven.

Again, thanks for the info.

[Modoc ED]

Great information - thanks a lot.

Grizz, Chuck 100 Yd, and 6pt-sika: Thanks for sharing your experience - it is invaluable. I asked about plain base bullets and got the word back that gas checks, gas checks, gas checks are what work - that seems unanimous and I hear the message loud and clear.

I am a fan of the 444 Marlin as well and have a micro-groove one sitting on the shelf. I don't expect to shoot much cast out of it however. I've spent the last year grubbing and stashing as many boxes of Hornady's light magnum load as I can come upon. I expect to shoot them up before reloading for this rifle.-- That's a shame. Get yerself some Beartooth 290gr LFNGC .432 bullets. They shoot just fine in the .444 Marlin Micro Groove 1:38 twist barrels. Use 45gr of H4198 along with that bullet and yer good fer 2197fps. As far as the 45/70 I will acquire soon (I'm in between 45/70s), it will get a steady diet of Grizz' light load and a slew of whatever cheap off-the-shelf hard cast bullets I can find. Like I said earlier, I mostly shoot cement blocks and rocks with my 45/70s. Spending an afternoon of busting rocks in the desert with a hard hitting 45/70 is the definition of plinking heaven.

Again, thanks for the info.

If ya want to duplicate Hornaday's factory .444 Light Magnum ammo, here's a load for you.

54gr H322, Hornady 265gr Interlock bullet, case of your choice, and Winchester Large Rifle Primer. That load will fall within 1/4" of Hornady's Light Magnum factory load.

[Idiot]

If ya want to duplicate Hornaday's factory .444 Light Magnum ammo, here's a load for you.

54gr H322, Hornady 265gr Interlock bullet, case of your choice, and Winchester Large Rifle Primer. That load will fall within 1/4" of Hornady's Light Magnum factory load.

Thanks.