Police Shoot Bad Guy....Almost

[Bullard4075]

81 shots..................2 hits.

Let me write that again.

81 shots..............2 hits.

Jeeeeeezzzzz !

[mescalero1]

Phoenix female cop,
bad dog
17 shots,
no hits.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Wow, that's a lot of loose projectiles bouncing around a business/commercial district.

[Buck Elliott]

That's what happens when you hire young, liberal, lame-brained sociology majors to fill vacancies in the department...

[deerwhacker444]

Can you post the story.?

[Rusty]

When Jr. and I go to the range I take my M28 S&W and he takes his Glock since the .40 short and weak is the issue gun of all the local departments he'll be trying to hire on to when he gets out of school. I put my 6 rounds in the 10 ring while he puts his all over the black. Not too bad, but not as tight a group as mine. He looks at his group and says not too bad ehh? I say yep you can miss a lot more and a lot faster than I can.

[jeepnik]

Some years back, LAPD made the 9mm an option. The officer bought their own, either a Beretta or a Smith. I was at the local police range when a female officer decided to try her had with her new pistol. She drew, and emptied the magazine. The only place safe on the range was the target. Standing there shaking his head was the range officer. Now they all carry (except for a few oldtimers) high capacity autos. Just gives them more chances to miss before they reload.

[firefuzz]

That's what happens when you hire young, liberal, lame-brained sociology majors to fill vacancies in the department...

Yup. When I used to be a cop I'd take common sense over a college degree any day.

Rob

[Pisgah]

Folks, I have seen highly trained soldiers who could barely fire their weapons in combat, let alone hit what they might be shooting at.

Anything can happen when the balloon goes up.

[firefuzz]

Just gives them more chances to miss before they reload.

A pretty good rule of thumb is that if you see a cop in his 50's that's carrying a wheel gun you probably shouldn't try him on for size, he probably shoots that antique very well.

They just dropped the mandatory expert qualification with a revolver on the old PPC course from the LEO firearms instructor course in my state. You used to have to shoot that BEFORE you could even get into the class. If you want to be an instructor you should at least be a shooter first. You'll put in a lot of time and rounds down range to shoot expert on that course. All of us older instructors argued against it because that's where you put the polish on an instructor and drive home all the basics. It was done because virtually no one carries a wheel gun anymore, economics, and mainly due to fact that the police chiefs in the state got tired of their people failing to get into the class because of it.

Very sad day for LEO training when the cost of ammo and a few hurt feelings lowered the bar for becoming a firearms instructor. Hopefully they won't be making up the cost in officer and innocent bystander lives with that decision.

Rob

[C. Cash]

Can you post the story.?

I'm with you Deerwhacker. Pfffffft! Pffffft! Pfffffft! Is this thing on?

[Bullard4075]

The story should be up tonight . We all stood around at work watching it on Fox News.

[AJMD429]

I forget the particulars, but a retired LEO locally was talking about the annual 'qualification' they had to do, and while I'm no great pistol shot, it seemed pretty lame - something like 75% hits on a pie-plate size target, standing, at 20 yards, if I recall, and the time was NOT rushed at all.

Is there a commonly used 'standard' for qualifying that most city or county departments use...?

I'd like to know what it is, just to see if I'm anything close to that level of ability. (...and NO, I don't want to 'take on' a cop, of any age, nor do I have what it takes to be one. I'm too old, and too much of a chicken, to be a cop... )

[Bogie35]

Mediocrity: The New Perfection

bogie

[mescalero1]

When I was a kid, the only pistol shoots were the border patrol shoots, and I was darned proud of myself when I beat those guys.
Those trophys were not handed out at whim!
You EARNED it!

[Rifleman336]

Yeah, but they had high cap Glocks. So everything they did was perfection................


Rifleman 336

[awp101]

I'm just guessing but is this about the shooting at the Fed building in Vegas?

From the reports I read 7 guards showed up and unloaded on the shooter. Seems to me at least 3 of them should have been looking for a second shooter just in case...

[mescalero1]

No,
We all shot double action wheel guns, reloads, and against REAL shooterts.

[fatoldfool]

Manoman. I thought the same thing when I saw it. 81 rounds. Like someone else said, who knows what you will do when the balloon goes up. One great problem I have seen is the lack of qualifaction with firearms in several LE agencies. Our county deps had no qualification until a couple of years ago. Back when I shot PPC with/against local LEO's, there were a couple of state troopers and two deputies that were hard to beat. All the rest were pretty mediocre. I also remember one Kentucky trooper who shot a perfect score with his 4" model 28 at our yearly match, and that never happened for me with a full "game gun" by Fred Schmidt.

[firefuzz]

. Is there a commonly used 'standard' for qualifying that most city or county departments use...?

That varies from state to state. Until about 4 years ago there was no state requirement for police qualification where I live. The state finally stepped in a developed a mandatory minimum qualification course of fire on a particular target. It took almost 2 years to develope it due to police chiefs crying about the amount of ammo required for quals, you're not going to believe this because it was only 50rds per person, it finally settled on a 20 round course that wasn't all that bad, but certainly not great. They then changed the course because of whining about having to shoot 2 rounds at 50yds and developed an entirely seperate course that's easier for admin and investigative personel. The present course of fire is shown on the bottom link.

This is the old standard that was modified and used by many PDs across the nation, it was found to be much too difficult and costly to suit city attorneys and coin counters: http://www.eohc.ca/ppc.asp

Although this course didn't deal with tactics much, it did produce excellent marksmenship, which should be the base for ALL firearms training. Tactics should be taught for sure, but after the base or foundation is laid.

This is the new Oklahoma standard: http://www.ok.gov/cleet/documents/Firea ... ne2007.pdf

Individual PDs can certainly add other training, but this course MUST be fired once a year and turned into the state.

There are major problems with any course that the final approval rest with the coin counters. Training suffers and instructors get frustrated because they're turning out recruits with a false sense of security in their abilities. One of the standard admonissions to all students at the academies is that these are BASIC skills and that the officer should take the responsiblity to improve on them during their career. IMHO one of these issues with this course is that it has no reloading under time requirement. The recruits training includes it as well as malfunction clearing drills, but there is no test for either in the qualification course. The coin counters theory on this is that with 13-17 rounds in the original load..who needs to worry about reloading under fire?

It's a sad thing to say but most good, even decent, IPSC or IDPA shooters will eat the AVERAGE cop for lunch.

Rob

[Hobie]

Firearms qualification courses seem to run in cycles. No need changes to immediate requirement when a constituent is killed, more so if it is a child. The requirement fades over time under budgetary pressures until the next "tragedy". In today's world, lawsuits accelerate the cycle.

[bcp]

And they all worry about "excessive penetration" of the bullets that DO hit the bad guy. They might hit bystanders.

Bruce

[piller]

Kinda seems to me that if you are trained to hit the target in a very timely manner whenever you practice, it might just carry over to the real world. The last several years the only place I could practice was at ranges which would not allow the shooter to stand, or even hold the rifle freehand. And rapid fire to practice what is called a double-tap, that will get you kicked off the range. Hogan's Alley with firecrackers or some type of noisemakers might just be what would help prevent this scenario from being repeated.

[Bullard4075]

"The last several years the only place I could practice was at ranges which would not allow the shooter to stand, or even hold the rifle freehand. And rapid fire to practice what is called a double-tap, that will get you kicked off the range. "

I continue to be amazed at some of the rules you gentlemen suffer under.

To not allow double-tap practice solves what problem ?

To not allow freehand practice solves what problem ?

Some should consider moving to Montana. We don't have silly rules.

But then I might have to use my elbows alot.

[oic0]

Devils advocate here, someone had to do it

I've never been in a shootout before but I have played a LOT of paintball. I may fire 50-200+ rounds per match and only hit 1 maybe 2 people. Sometimes none. Why? do I have horrible accuracy? It is a few factors.

Suppression fire: You can keep someone pinned by occasionally reminding them that you are there. If you have a buddy that needs to move this is a must. Not to mention it keeps YOU safe. If the enemy is pinned behind a wall he isn't shooting at you.

Not me but this is how it usually plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqqdd2Z52Xs . That is a firefight where people are relatively stress free (compared to having your life on the line) and just plain trying to win. (Also the ammo doesn't penetrate anything and no worries about bystanders).

Throwing lead does work though. That is why our government has been moving that direction with military guns (A study they did said the side that fired the most rounds typically won the encounter). That said... it really isn't suitable for a city area full of bystanders!!!!!

[jp]

Same thing happened here in Florida, Orlando, Sheriff's fired 100 rounds at a young man seated in a stolen car. The deputies had blocked him in fore and aft. He had about 2 ft. to ram either cruiser. Sheriff in an interview said he didn"t think an excessive amount of shots were fired. The people in the neighborhood suffered 3 shattered glass doors, and numerous broken windows. One woman said she picked 4 bullets out the wall of her living room. Sent this story to my son, a police chief in Ohio, his reaction was, Orange county needs a new sheriff.

[OI phones in...]

And here I was feeling pretty depressed for only scoring a 95 on our G17 qual...

'course if'n I were the whining type I'd blame the lost 5 pts on the light 30mph Rawlins cross-breeze and 15deg temps... but I'd rather blame it on the ancient surplus DEA gen-1 Glocks & Level 3 retention holster...