#6 shot or slugs for home defense?

[Hobie]

Well this is entertaining

[Hobie]

All,
In my opinion, If I fear enough to need my .45 colt in my nightstand or the '97 pump next to my bed, I won't need a lawyer near as bad as an effective weapon. I only worry about RECOGNITION. As Hobie said, I have a sector of fire that eliminates danger to my wifel The hell with home damage, or blood on the floor. I load slug, buck OO, slug ,buck, buck. I want to penetrate. My key word is recognition, and I know that is my biggest problem. I do have intimate experience with a drunk neighbor mistaking my home for his own at 1:00 AM. Fortunitly
we were awake playing cards, and it was only embarrassing for him. If I am fortunate enough to be aware I am in danger, I am prepared to have the heaviest firepower . I want to be able to kill 3 rooms away. Isn't that why we support the NRA?

Paul,

I have flashlights too, if needed. HOWEVER, it so happens that my defensive positions have approaches lit by outside light (street lights) while I can hide in shadow. Recognition IS critical. The more folks that live in the home the harder it will be to account for everyone. NOTHING is as important to me as the folks in my home.

I had an incident some time ago and I'm well aware of the fact that some people you might face are unaware of reality at the time they are at or coming through your door. I also know that I might be any where or in any mental state when the stuff hits the air mover.

[madman4570]

What you guys do not realize is that Doc REALLY has nothing to lose.
Stop and think about that for a moment.
Lighten up, drop the craziness, we are talking about one of our own.

Yes, You are right!

Doc, Getting serious here, I hope its not that bad for you that you really have nothing to lose.
You are still living,and I hope living well. I don't wish any luck but GOOD luck for you.
If it's really that bad for you,then I feel for you and Prayers up!

[mescalero1]

Thank you.

[madman4570]

No thanks required,Its the truth!

[JohndeFresno]

The experts all say to use 00 buck because.............you want to kill the perp...

Whooooa, there! Which experts?

Way back in 1979 at the Fresno County Sheriff's Department, there was a segment of our yearly officer survival training in which our rangemaster explained why most California agencies issued #4 buck for their police shotguns.

Besides the danger to fellow officers on the other side of a building when 00 Buckshot was used, we were shown how our chances were greatly increased in hitting the subject when #4 buck is used. The buckshot, it was shown with real walls simulating three and even four walls of a house, went through everything. So taking out a perpetrator inside the house would also result in your perimeter guards - fellow officers - outside the walls getting maimed or killed. To say nothing of the neighbors! That's not good survival strategy.

The #4 Buck is good enough for goose hunting at fair distances! The 00 Buck has only 8 pellets per ounce, and it shoots a .34 caliber (.34 inch) pellet. Yet the #4 Buck shoots a large enough pellet to be lethal at some 1200 feet per second - it delivers 21 .24 caliber pellets into the air (per ounce) at once. You can do the math with 1 1/8 oz. standard (if I recall) and a 3-inch Magnum 12 ga shoots 1 7/8 ounces of lead.

Multiple hits, anywhere on the body, of fast moving .24 caliber projectiles will certainly slow down that attack and start the blood pumping into different directions than the assailant wants it to be.

I think you'd better check your sources for those "experts." Unless you have plenty of open country around and no loved ones in the area you are defending, you might be asking for lots of friendly fire casualties with the larger buckshot - with less chance of hitting what you are aiming at.

[Paul Jenkins]

All
I am not a LEO. I am only concerned about my home, I have brick walls that most nothing penetrates.. As has been mentioned before.If you won't protect yourself, WHO? will.

[JohndeFresno]

I hate to sound like I'm arguing or flaming; but if family or loved ones share your home, you might want to rethink your ammo; unless your interior walls are also brick. It is a pure tragedy when you hear about a child being taken out by stray bullets.

[Modoc ED]

We've been talking guns and ammo here but one thing we haven't talked about is pets -- specifically, dogs. I've got two dogs (dachshunds) and there's no way an intruder will not be detected and located by them. Also, the intruder would probably expire due to sever dog bites from the ankles down.

That was a good point by Hobie about his home being lit via outside lighting -- street lights. My home is also lit indirectly by two ranch lights on opposing corners of the house mounted 25' up on utility poles.

Anyway, all-in-all this has been a pretty good thread. I'll still stick to my #4 lead shot and 00 buck shot.

[TedH]

+1 on the dogs. We've got a dachshund and a toy poodle. The dachshund's bark sounds like a 50 pound beast, very misleading till you see him. The poodle will let out a soft growl under her breath when someone walks by on the road 75 yards away. It amazes me how they can pick up on these things from inside. There's no way anyone will approach the house undetected.

[rjohns94]

I have a possible response to the long shotgun portion of this topic:




Just waiting for the BATF to put their stamp on the paperwork to bring it home!

[Doc Hudson]

I have a possible response to the long shotgun portion of this topic:




Just waiting for the BATF to put their stamp on the paperwork to bring it home!

Do you have to go throught the annual inspection heifer dust with that sawed-off that machine gun owners have to tolerate?

yeah that's a lot handier than even an 18.5" barrel, but it still takes both hands and requires hip shots. It would e pretty rough on the furniture and breakables as well.

[Hillbilly]

Holy yikes... have you tried that 870 on the skeet range yet?

[Hobie]

How you doin' Tubbs?

[Sixgun]

We've been talking guns and ammo here but one thing we haven't talked about is pets -- specifically, dogs.

THATS the best point I have seen. We have FOURTEEN Yorkies and can you imagine the disorientation that would occur to a bad guy with 14 dogs chewing up his/her/their legs. Yes, legs, these dogs can jump up to the waist and bite. Several of my friends will attest to this.

Many small dogs (land piranahs ) will attack from all angles. making the bad guy spin around in a circle, giving me the time to choose my weapon, which is most always a revolver, which like I said in an earlier post, always handy in most rooms of the house--even when I'm on the tractor cutting grass

I really think about 3 good dogs is a minimum but 14--I've got the bases covered ---------Sixgun

[rjohns94]

no you don't have to go through the requirements of full autos. its a $5 tax instead of $200 and once you have it, its like any normal pistol or revolver. Now if you cut down a shotgun that would be treated as the same as a full auto and lots of paperwork follows. I have not shot it at skeet but I have shot it at the store. Its pretty kewl and actually can be done one handed, or out in front of your with a tactical sling. serious power with #4 buck in a much smaller size.

[Hobie]

What's the magazine capacity Mike?

[Modoc ED]

Where do ya get one of those? Who do I tell my dealer to order one from?

[rjohns94]

its a 2 + 1

here is a link for its features and details on purchase. Remington is no longer making them, mossberg is still doing so though. The fact that Remington was stopping production was my deciding factor in pulling the trigger on one.

https://www.mainemilitary.com/productca ... oduct=1291

[rjohns94]

any class III dealer can get one in for you. Be quick if you want a Remington version cause they have stopped making them. Mossberg makes them still.

[Sixgun]

Where do ya get one of those? Who do I tell my dealer to order one from?

Ed, You don't want one. Mike J. must have some pretty strong arms as I've shot 'em at my buddies store (He's a class 3 also) and those guns jump out of your hands, even with low brass 8 shot. Even the class II shotgun with a folding stock and a 18" barrel is hard to control after the first shot. Maybe some advanced training could keep that under control.

I still say a revolver with a big bullet moving at moderate speed is the best home defense gun.-----------------------Sixgun

[Poohgyrr]

Regarding the original question, my current load is low recoil Winchester slugs, because I shoot those out to 25 yards regulary at the range, and home has two 20 yard stretches - I'm comfortable with how these group within this distance.

And as posted earlier, I consider this to be a special purpose long gun. For me, that is behind the secured door or if I feel the threat requires heavier weaponry as I retrieve others to our safe room. Disabled family members will use the .30 Carbine, and I prefer a short Lever. Our ankle biters have already proven their worth and received a steak dinner in recognition & appreciation of their actions. The 12 gauge is a hard recoiling and heavy long gun....

ymmv

[Jason_W]

Certain kinds of slugs (remington sluggers and lightfields) fragment completely at close range. I don't think the shards would have enough energy left to pierce walls after passing through a torso. Of course, a miss is another story.

[Nixterdemus]

Chucky D Nickel AW 18.5"- Remington 3" 000 Magnum



Pattern rnds on feed sack hanging, 14 yds from chain link, on a field fence. 12/30/09

[Doc Hudson]

Certain kinds of slugs (remington sluggers and lightfields) fragment completely at close range. I don't think the shards would have enough energy left to pierce walls after passing through a torso. Of course, a miss is another story.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I've never heard of Foster-type slugs being prone to fragmentation. So this is a new one on me.

Box o' Truth ran some tests with defensive shotguns, various buckshot loads and a slug load shot into a rack of drywall. Their box held 12 sheets of drywall seperated by a brick and backed up by a large water jug and a block wall. A 1 ounce Remington slug, the Slugger 2 3/4" Rifle Slug penetrated all 12 sheets of drywall. The first shot "barely penetrated the jug" and the second, after penetrating all 12 sheets of drywall "bounced off the water jug."

Heere are links to both Box o' Truth articles on buckshot patterns and penetration and the effect of choke.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot44.htm

Testing several buckshot loads with different chokes, Cylinder, improved Cylinder and Full to test pattrn size. At a measured 30 feet from the muzzle, no buckshot load spreead more than about 8-inches and as small as a bit under 3-inches. in other words plenty of room to miss.

Both articles close with comments about the use of birdshot for defense. here are the comments from one of the articles.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

In spite or their findings, I'm willing to take a chance on #4 or #1 Buckshot.

[Nath]

Chucky D Nickel AW 18.5"- Remington 3" 000 Magnum



Pattern rnds on feed sack hanging, 14 yds from chain link, on a field fence. 12/30/09

You will get welders flash using that! Put some sunglass's on

I loaded some .690 pumkin balls on plas wads and 24grn of green dot Sunday, I got a six inch group for three with the Franchi/Benneli auto @ 50 paces. If I can get 4 inch I will be happy.

Certain kinds of slugs (remington sluggers and lightfields) fragment completely at close range. I don't think the shards would have enough energy left to pierce walls after passing through a torso. Of course, a miss is another story.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I've never heard of Foster-type slugs being prone to fragmentation. So this is a new one on me.

Box o' Truth ran some tests with defensive shotguns, various buckshot loads and a slug load shot into a rack of drywall. Their box held 12 sheets of drywall seperated by a brick and backed up by a large water jug and a block wall. A 1 ounce Remington slug, the Slugger 2 3/4" Rifle Slug penetrated all 12 sheets of drywall. The first shot "barely penetrated the jug" and the second, after penetrating all 12 sheets of drywall "bounced off the water jug."

Heere are links to both Box o' Truth articles on buckshot patterns and penetration and the effect of choke.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot44.htm

Testing several buckshot loads with different chokes, Cylinder, improved Cylinder and Full to test pattrn size. At a measured 30 feet from the muzzle, no buckshot load spreead more than about 8-inches and as small as a bit under 3-inches. in other words plenty of room to miss.

Both articles close with comments about the use of birdshot for defense. here are the comments from one of the articles.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

In spite or their findings, I'm willing to take a chance on #4 or #1 Buckshot.

Doc, I don't get the part about penertrating a torso and little birds!
A goose is as wide as a torso (ish) covered in thick clothing and I don't need buck shot to stop them.

In the quote you use, did the bad guy carry on with his attack or did the bird shot stop his attack?

I feel sure that to much generalisation is going on here, I will not dismiss slug or buck shot any more than bird shot for defence. I stand by what I said the other day that I bet more folk have deceased due to bird shot than any other. Shotguns have so many variables and so do defensive shootings that severly restricts our right to cancel out anothers choice.

What I do know is, if someone was pointing a shotgun even a 410 at me I would not worry any less should I know it only kills little birds!

Nath.

[JohndeFresno]

In the quote you use, did the bad guy carry on with his attack or did the bird shot stop his attack?

I feel sure that to much generalisation is going on here...

...I'll say.
The third hand quotes of policemen are frequently fraught with problems. Some police officers know their stuff, others can (must) qualify at the range but only know what their rangemaster has taught them about the firearms that they are using - believe this from a 38 year veteran (of four different agencies). Just because somebody is a peace officer, it does not automatically make him knowledgeable about ballistics and firearms in general - just how to use the ones that he carries.

And at times the officers just know what they heard at coffee about incidents occurring within their jurisdiction. They work long hours and have personal lives; they don't know every detail about every police call. Then, their half-information shared with friends is too often taken as gospel because of their job; but sometimes that information is no more reliable than that of citizens who hear about these incidents at cocktail parties.

For instance, what type of shot was used in the alleged police account of shotgun use? That certainly matters. Not all agencies use the same ammunition. And how far away was the perpetrator? How many pellets hit him? What was he wearing?

At reasonable distances, I think that we can deduce that a large number of #4 buck pellets (for instance) will cause enough shock and damage enough tissue to quickly drop blood pressure, destroy muscle tissue, and so on - enough to usually instantly incapacitate an assailant. By the way, there are no guarantees - folks have been known to continue fighting a bit after being hit several times with fatal rounds of various types, including machinegun fire; one FBI account is of an assailant who returned fire and attacked after being hit in the neck with a .45.

Through and through penetration, and even penetration of the vitals, is not the only factor in dropping an attacker. But don't take it from me. Check your papers for incidents in which a police shotgun has been used (at least in California) and you can pretty much assume the projectiles were #4 buck out of a 12 gauge. Read whether the suspect attacked further. And in many cases, whether he survived. Then you can make some deductions on your own. You can google something like "police shotgun shooting" and probably get your answer very quickly.

[Modoc ED]

For instance, what type of shot was used

Now that's the crux of the matter in this discussion.

I specified in my first post in this thread that I liked #4 lead shot and 00 buck shot.

Lead shot will deform after striking and penetrating flesh, bone, etc.. However, "hevi-shot" and Bismuth shot do not deform (as readily) as lead shot does. So to my way of thinking, lead shot is more than enough to stop an intruder and is not likely to pass through the intruder whereas the harder "hevi-shot" and bismuth shot are likely to.

Another actor for me is that my house is 60 feet long and the longest open area (say lane) is only 38 feet -- certainly only a short distance where #4 lead shot will get the job done.

[Bigahh]

The title is calculated to wind folks up...

Not sure, but I believe it worked!

[buckeyeshooter]

you folks got me motivated, here is my sawed off double 10ga.


http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg

[Nixterdemus]

"You will get welders flash using that! Put some sunglass's on"

I've gotten into discussions w/folks that claim 8-12" of brl and and the fast burning shotgun shells have burned their powder and reached terminal velocity.
Appears to me that I have quite a bit of burning powder coming out of the 18.5" brl.
Anywho, some folks are touchier than others. I asked one fella and he tells me his chrony doesn't measure fireballs.
This was the guy that claimed all the speed in a scattergun was obtained in the first eight inches.
Well, if that's the case fine. I just didn't understand how that related to all my unburned powder producing a fireball that I guesstamate at 1' high and 1.5' long, evah so roughly.

"I loaded some .690 pumkin balls on plas wads and 24grn of green dot Sunday, I got a six inch group for three with the Franchi/Benneli auto @ 50 paces. If I can get 4 inch I will be happy."

Isn't that a single round ball? I read where one that size comes in at 492 grains/1 oz & 1/8. I like the double ball & tri-ball as well. I like the idea of a couple of large balls vs. slug.
I copied some posts by a fellow ,that was trying the single ball in smoothbore, on another forum that went by Longbow.
Sounds English to me...

Always wanted a double in 10 gauge.

[Doc Hudson]

I tried posting this earlier but apparently it got lost in cyberspace, so here goea aain.

Nath,

i did not edit the quotation. What you saw was all the info I have.

As I said before you are probably right about the number of folks killed by birdshot loads. And i'm prertty sure most of them had powderburns as well. ear in mind moe men have probably been killed with .22 Rimfire cartridges (of all lengths) than any other caliber. Does that mean the .22 is a great manstopper, or that we should all hang up or .357's, and 45's in favor of a .22? i don't think so.

there are no guarantees - folks have been known to continue fighting a bit after being hit several times with fatal rounds of various types, including machinegun fire; one FBI account is of an assailant who returned fire and attacked after being hit in the neck with a .45.

AMEN John!!

The classic case of the Chicago Bullet Sponge springs to mind. This person, high on angel dust absorbed 33 9 mmP Silvertip bullet wounds. The medical examiner later described many of them as lethal wounds. in stead of falling down the man continued to fight even after he was hit in the body with a 12 gauge slug. He was still trying to reload his pistol and continue the fight when a second 12 gauge slug to the head finally put him down.

There are far too many instances of good men being killed by what amounts to aa dead bad guy. That is another reason I don't understand why people intentionally handicap thrmdrlbrd by using a shotgun load that is marginal at best.

[Poohgyrr]

you folks got me motivated, here is my sawed off double 10ga.
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg

How many 00 buck pellets fit inside one of those shells?

If I broke into someone's home and saw the business end of that pointed at me, and I didn't surrrender, geez.......

[Doc Hudson]

you folks got me motivated, here is my sawed off double 10ga.
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg

How many 00 buck pellets fit inside one of those shells?

If I broke into someone's home and saw the business end of that pointed at me, and I didn't surrrender, geez.......

It doesn't have to be a 10gauge to look like tractor trailers should be entering and exiting. Looking down the barrel of a .38 snubby is scary enough to satisfy me!

Looking down the twin tubes of a 10 bore would probably make me need clean undies.

[Nath]

"You will get welders flash using that! Put some sunglass's on"

I've gotten into discussions w/folks that claim 8-12" of brl and and the fast burning shotgun shells have burned their powder and reached terminal velocity.
Appears to me that I have quite a bit of burning powder coming out of the 18.5" brl.
Anywho, some folks are touchier than others. I asked one fella and he tells me his chrony doesn't measure fireballs.
This was the guy that claimed all the speed in a scattergun was obtained in the first eight inches.
Well, if that's the case fine. I just didn't understand how that related to all my unburned powder producing a fireball that I guesstamate at 1' high and 1.5' long, evah so roughly.

"I loaded some .690 pumkin balls on plas wads and 24grn of green dot Sunday, I got a six inch group for three with the Franchi/Benneli auto @ 50 paces. If I can get 4 inch I will be happy."

Isn't that a single round ball? I read where one that size comes in at 492 grains/1 oz & 1/8. I like the double ball & tri-ball as well. I like the idea of a couple of large balls vs. slug.
I copied some posts by a fellow ,that was trying the single ball in smoothbore, on another forum that went by Longbow.
Sounds English to me...

Always wanted a double in 10 gauge.

Not three pumpkin balls at once! One per shell

I have done some tri ball loads with hmm not sure now if they were .50, .54 or .56.
But they were packed with fine chopped tea leaf to act as a buffer and it sure worked! Allthough a long time ago now they stayed tight for a very long way, something like a few inches at over 50paces--it was a long time ago, I may have to revisit hmmmm.

Nath.

[Nath]

Come on now Doc, I wish I could have a whiskey with you,,,,

When you said about the 22 taking more fellers than anything else, does it make it a man stopper you asked. You then said how you don't think so. Thats fine but to me if it is true then it is by definition a man stopper!

Like wise in the account of the idiot on angel dust where he takes a slug to the body but it does not stop him etc. It could be argued the the shotgun slug is not a stopper, also the 9mm in this example and so on and so on.

Where most folk get lost is more is better or bigger is better. No, it isn't, sometimes enough is just enough and other times to much still ain't enough.

What ever a persons choice is may just be enough but if a person wants to make sure by having way over the odds thats just fine but it may still do no better than just enough (clear as mud)

I'm just glad you guy's can make a good ready, we have to make it look as though we were'nt ready

Any way I never had big H down as a stirrer

Nath.

[JB]

I've taken out a number of feral dogs and cats at distances greater than just about any room you'd find in a house. Personally I think just about any bird short won't be much different than buck or slugs at typical home shooting distances. If I didn't have buckshot lying around, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with a load of 6's or 7 1/2's.

[Nath]

For instance, what type of shot was used

Now that's the crux of the matter in this discussion.

I specified in my first post in this thread that I liked #4 lead shot and 00 buck shot.

Lead shot will deform after striking and penetrating flesh, bone, etc.. However, "hevi-shot" and Bismuth shot do not deform (as readily) as lead shot does. So to my way of thinking, lead shot is more than enough to stop an intruder and is not likely to pass through the intruder whereas the harder "hevi-shot" and bismuth shot are likely to.

Another actor for me is that my house is 60 feet long and the longest open area (say lane) is only 38 feet -- certainly only a short distance where #4 lead shot will get the job done.

I would avoid the bismuth! It is known for shattering! Witnessed it my self in birds!

Nath.

[buckeyeshooter]

Here is my sawed off 10 ga. -- keep it loaded with 3 1/2 buckshot shells.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg

[Doc Hudson]

Here is my sawed off 10 ga. -- keep it loaded with 3 1/2 buckshot shells.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg

I that dainty little thing doesn't stop them you should ask if you can help load their truck!

My sole objection to doubles as defensive guns is the fact that ther are only two shots before you have to reload.

Dang that shotgun practically makes my mouth water! I likes!!!

What make is it?

[Doc Hudson]

Come on now Doc, I wish I could have a whiskey with you,,,,

When you said about the 22 taking more fellers than anything else, does it make it a man stopper you asked. You then said how you don't think so. Thats fine but to me if it is true then it is by definition a man stopper!

Like wise in the account of the idiot on angel dust where he takes a slug to the body but it does not stop him etc. It could be argued the the shotgun slug is not a stopper, also the 9mm in this example and so on and so on.

Where most folk get lost is more is better or bigger is better. No, it isn't, sometimes enough is just enough and other times to much still ain't enough.

What ever a persons choice is may just be enough but if a person wants to make sure by having way over the odds thats just fine but it may still do no better than just enough (clear as mud)

I'm just glad you guy's can make a good ready, we have to make it look as though we were'nt ready

Any way I never had big H down as a stirrer

Nath.

Nath,

I'd certainly emjoy sharing a jug of Talisker or Islay with you. We could have some fine free ranging discussions and settle the world's problems.

Two points to make.

The bullet sponge event simply illustrates that no firearm is 100% effective. Thanks to the angel dust shutting down many nerve paths and making the man virtually insensible to pain or even shock he could absorb a totally absurd amount of punishment, being literally dead on his feet but he still continued to run and fight. only when that second slug brained him did the fact sink to him that he was dead.

There have been numerous instances of similar occurance before and since. Back in the first years of the 20th Century the US hand to deal with an rebellion among the Moro tribesmen in newly conquered Philipines. Moros would get stoned on hashish and other drugs and go into a sort of berserker trance. In preparation they'd also tightly wrap their arms and legs to reduce blood flow. When in the proper state of narcotic and religious euphoria they would start slashing all and sundry with their parangs. The relatively new DA revolver in .38 Colt earned a rather undeserved reputation as a weakling since it failed to knock down these skinny, stoned juramentados, as they called these Moro Berserkers. Troops clamored for re-issue of the old .45 Long Colt revolvers, totally ignoring the fact that their .30-40 Krags were not a lot more effective in stopping the juramentados. The result was a re-issue of the Single-Action Army Revolver, along with just about any and every .45 LC sixgun the Army could beg, borrow, or buy. And eventually the US Army adopted a new .45 caliber cartridge, and a pistol to shoot it.

But drugs are not the only things that make people virtually impervious to lethal wounds. Rage, dispair, or determination can also do the trick.

Examples.

Some 20-odd years ago in South Georgia, four escaped convicts invaded a home and took captive a young woman, her grandfather and her four small children. The convicts proceeded to rape and murder the woman and her children right in front of the grandfather.

That elderly man broke the ropes with which he had been tied to a chair and attacked the four convicts with intent to tear them apart with bare hands. The old man was shot 18 times with a .22 rifle and six times with a .38 Special revolver before he halted his attack. The convicts then proceeded to crush his skull with the rifle butt. The convicts were trapped a few days later in Virginia following a four state manhunt. The cravens surrendered without firing a shot.

Evan Marshall wrote of a Detroit bankrobber who was shot four times in the body with a .44 RemMag (loaded with full power 240 gr. bullets). Marshall said that the man was determined that no cop could kill him. He walked to the ambulance and survived to stand trial and go to prison.

Bill Jordan used to say that the only cartridge to kill more men than the .38 Special is the .22 Rimfire. Not counting war I believe he is probably right. The .22, especially the .22 LR is a helluva fine killer. But it is not a reliable stopper.

let me give one more example of the difference between stopping and killing from the Sepoy Rebellion.

Lieutenant Colonel G.V. Fosbery wrote;

An officer who prided himself on his pistol-shooting, was attacked by a stalwart mutineer armed with a heavy sword. The officer, unfortunately for himself, carried a Colt's Navy pistol, which, as you may remember, was of small caliber [.36]... This he proceeded to epty into the sepoy as he advanced, but, having done so. he waited just one second too long to see the effect of his shooting, and was cloven to the teeth by his antagonist, who then dropped down and died beside him....

In other words the sepoy was killed but not stopped from splitting the officer's head. Likewise there are numerous instances of .22's killing without stopping the successful completion of an attack.

I'm sure it would give you scant relief to die under an attacker's blade even knowing your attacker would eventually die.

The name of the game is "Stop The *** In His Tracks! Right Now!!" It doesn't matter if he lives or dies so long as he is stopped. So my dear friend, use enough gun!

A .22 beats the daylights out of begging for mercy and I'd still fight if all I had available was a .22. But IMO a .22 is not enough gun to bet your life upon. IMO enough gun starts with the .38 Spl or #4 Buckshot. Anything less it too much of a gamble for my taste.

[JohndeFresno]

Well said, Doc.

[madman4570]

Well said, Doc.

+1

[RJM52]

My "bedroom" gun is a 60's vintage Mossberg 500 with a 20" ventrib barrel modified screw in choke and a tritium front bead. It is loaded with Federal Low Recoil Tactical 00. This buckshot has the tightest pattern of any I have ever seen. It's low recoil is a plus for sending additional rounds down range quickly.

From a friend's 1100 20" custom gun it put 7 out of 9 pellets in the head of a silhouette target at 50 yards where his friends shotgun using standard Winchester Super-X 00 buck put three pellets on the whole target.

At shorter ranges where a standard load of OO has nine holes in the paper the Federal has one LARGE hole...

Outside the home however I would go to the Brenneke slugs. Tactical penetration of even 00 or 000 buckshot sucks...

Bob

[Doc Hudson]

My "bedroom" gun is a 60's vintage Mossberg 500 with a 20" ventrib barrel modified screw in choke and a tritium front bead. It is loaded with Federal Low Recoil Tactical 00. This buckshot has the tightest pattern of any I have ever seen. It's low recoil is a plus for sending additional rounds down range quickly.

IIRC, without consulting the article, the Box o' Truth found that load to produce a pattern around 3' or less at a measured 30". The group looked like one big ragged hole.

Good Choice of shotgun and load.

[Nath]

Come on now Doc, I wish I could have a whiskey with you,,,,

When you said about the 22 taking more fellers than anything else, does it make it a man stopper you asked. You then said how you don't think so. Thats fine but to me if it is true then it is by definition a man stopper!

Like wise in the account of the idiot on angel dust where he takes a slug to the body but it does not stop him etc. It could be argued the the shotgun slug is not a stopper, also the 9mm in this example and so on and so on.

Where most folk get lost is more is better or bigger is better. No, it isn't, sometimes enough is just enough and other times to much still ain't enough.

What ever a persons choice is may just be enough but if a person wants to make sure by having way over the odds thats just fine but it may still do no better than just enough (clear as mud)

I'm just glad you guy's can make a good ready, we have to make it look as though we were'nt ready

Any way I never had big H down as a stirrer

Nath.

Nath,

I'd certainly emjoy sharing a jug of Talisker or Islay with you. We could have some fine free ranging discussions and settle the world's problems.

Two points to make.

The bullet sponge event simply illustrates that no firearm is 100% effective. Thanks to the angel dust shutting down many nerve paths and making the man virtually insensible to pain or even shock he could absorb a totally absurd amount of punishment, being literally dead on his feet but he still continued to run and fight. only when that second slug brained him did the fact sink to him that he was dead.

There have been numerous instances of similar occurance before and since. Back in the first years of the 20th Century the US hand to deal with an rebellion among the Moro tribesmen in newly conquered Philipines. Moros would get stoned on hashish and other drugs and go into a sort of berserker trance. In preparation they'd also tightly wrap their arms and legs to reduce blood flow. When in the proper state of narcotic and religious euphoria they would start slashing all and sundry with their parangs. The relatively new DA revolver in .38 Colt earned a rather undeserved reputation as a weakling since it failed to knock down these skinny, stoned juramentados, as they called these Moro Berserkers. Troops clamored for re-issue of the old .45 Long Colt revolvers, totally ignoring the fact that their .30-40 Krags were not a lot more effective in stopping the juramentados. The result was a re-issue of the Single-Action Army Revolver, along with just about any and every .45 LC sixgun the Army could beg, borrow, or buy. And eventually the US Army adopted a new .45 caliber cartridge, and a pistol to shoot it.

But drugs are not the only things that make people virtually impervious to lethal wounds. Rage, dispair, or determination can also do the trick.

Examples.

Some 20-odd years ago in South Georgia, four escaped convicts invaded a home and took captive a young woman, her grandfather and her four small children. The convicts proceeded to rape and murder the woman and her children right in front of the grandfather.

That elderly man broke the ropes with which he had been tied to a chair and attacked the four convicts with intent to tear them apart with bare hands. The old man was shot 18 times with a .22 rifle and six times with a .38 Special revolver before he halted his attack. The convicts then proceeded to crush his skull with the rifle butt. The convicts were trapped a few days later in Virginia following a four state manhunt. The cravens surrendered without firing a shot.

Evan Marshall wrote of a Detroit bankrobber who was shot four times in the body with a .44 RemMag (loaded with full power 240 gr. bullets). Marshall said that the man was determined that no cop could kill him. He walked to the ambulance and survived to stand trial and go to prison.

Bill Jordan used to say that the only cartridge to kill more men than the .38 Special is the .22 Rimfire. Not counting war I believe he is probably right. The .22, especially the .22 LR is a helluva fine killer. But it is not a reliable stopper.

let me give one more example of the difference between stopping and killing from the Sepoy Rebellion.

Lieutenant Colonel G.V. Fosbery wrote;

An officer who prided himself on his pistol-shooting, was attacked by a stalwart mutineer armed with a heavy sword. The officer, unfortunately for himself, carried a Colt's Navy pistol, which, as you may remember, was of small caliber [.36]... This he proceeded to epty into the sepoy as he advanced, but, having done so. he waited just one second too long to see the effect of his shooting, and was cloven to the teeth by his antagonist, who then dropped down and died beside him....

In other words the sepoy was killed but not stopped from splitting the officer's head. Likewise there are numerous instances of .22's killing without stopping the successful completion of an attack.

I'm sure it would give you scant relief to die under an attacker's blade even knowing your attacker would eventually die.

The name of the game is "Stop The *** In His Tracks! Right Now!!" It doesn't matter if he lives or dies so long as he is stopped. So my dear friend, use enough gun!

A .22 beats the daylights out of begging for mercy and I'd still fight if all I had available was a .22. But IMO a .22 is not enough gun to bet your life upon. IMO enough gun starts with the .38 Spl or #4 Buckshot. Anything less it too much of a gamble for my taste.

Doc I think you missed my point, the 22 is a man stopper. It ain't necessary the best attack stopper! That we both and others can agree on.

I am glad you find security in a 38special and #4 buck, I just don't see how they can be filed under attack stopper and bird shot filed under not attack stopper but thats just me and what do I know.

I gracefully bow to your superior experience than mine on this matter and wish you good grace.

Nath

[Doc Hudson]

Doc I think you missed my point, the 22 is a man stopper. It ain't necessary the best attack stopper! That we both and others can agree on.

I am glad you find security in a 38special and #4 buck, I just don't see how they can be filed under attack stopper and bird shot filed under not attack stopper but thats just me and what do I know.

I gracefully bow to your superior experience than mine on this matter and wish you good grace.

Nath

my friend,

i believe e are down to a difference of semantics and point of view.

You are looking at things in an intelligent and logical point of view in which a person who is wounded because of his actions has enough sense to stop what he's doing and tend his hurts. That is a very sensible viewpoint. And in it, any weapon capable of inflicting a wound is a stopper. in ordinary cases that is not an unreasonable assumption.

However, in instances where a person's psychological and or physical circumstances are altered either by drugs or a massive adrenalin input people often ignore wounds, even serious wounds, until they either die or return to a normal state.

A .22 bullet lacks both mass and velocity to reliably penetrate to vital organs ans do enough damage to immediately incapacitate the victim. Only with a head shot, and not always then, can one be reasonably certain of an instant cessation of hostilities by the wounded party.

The same goes for small shot. A sensible fellow with a chest or gut full of birdshot is going to sit right down and wait for an ambulance. But if he's wound up tight on some sort of joy juice or he is chock full of adrenalin, you might well be in for seerious problems.

if this doesn't get my point across, we will shelve things until we can discuss it over a bottle or Talisker.

[Nath]

I was just remembering being with a guy whome shot a buck at 15' with a slug from a pump 12g with a few more in the mag. Perfect placement but that guy just could not believe it when that buck just stood there as if nothing happened, he just nealt there shaking his head in disbelief. I had to tell him to shoot again!

I think he put to much faith in them slugs as being absolute.

Being a life long cynic I think many find their convictions leaving them wanting.

N.

[RKrodle]

Ok, Joe and I had a Ram die yesterday from being sick, not from lead poisoning. So I took it out to my range along with my old Rem 870 with 28 inch barrel. Gathered up some low brass No. 6 and some 2 3/4 000 buck. I stepped off 3 1/2 steps, about 10 feet, and put the load of No. 6 in the hind quarter and the load of 000 buck into the fore shoulder.

This pic is entrance wound of No. 6 shot



Pic of exit of No. 6 shot




Pic of 000 buck entrance, the larger areas of missing hair was there before the shot was taken.



Pic of exit of 000 buck. I partially removed the shoulder to show penetration into chest.



The N0.6 bird shot entered the leg and exited but did not reenter the body. Total penetration of about 3 inches. it did break the leg bone.

The 000 buck shot entered the shoulder and penetrated into the chest cavity but did not exit the chest cavity. Total penetration of more than 3 inches, less then 10 inches.

Neither one performed as I expected. I didn't have any slugs to try.

[Poohgyrr]

It doesn't have to be a 10gauge to look like tractor trailers should be entering and exiting. Looking down the barrel of a .38 snubby is scary enough to satisfy me!
Looking down the twin tubes of a 10 bore would probably make me need clean undies.

Me too, but I think we're a little bit more normal than some of these burglars.

One advantage of revolvers has always been the bad guys' ability to see each bullet with his name on it. That should make a good impression and help the bad guy decide to start behaving himself. I'd think a 10 ga Coach Gun might get the same results. I'm not sure I want to shoot one, but if it was needed....