1943-1948 Model 1894 Pics, looking for sight advice

[BigBrad]

I have a 30-30 I picked up years ago and have carried occasionaly. I really would like to improve it's accuracy and shootability. The rear sight is missing the rear sight elevator. Instead of replacing the elevator, I was reading up on the Williams, Marbles and XS Ghost sights or possibly evean a tang. I would prefer not to drill any new holes. The shots would be quick ones on hogs mostly. Occasionaly I would be able to set up and take longer shots.
Judging by the serial #1356733, she should have been made between 1943-1948.
Any corrections, reccomendations or advice?
Much appreciated in advance,
BB

[Chuck 100 yd]

WOW !! Lots of extra holes there already.
Must have had a scope mounted for a left hand shooter. Drilling and tapping two 6x48 holes on the left side for a receiver sight would not hurt its value and would make it a good hunting rifle.

[bogus bill]

Looks like you have a lot of extra holes and still dont have the ones you need for a williams foolproof. I am showing my 94 with a foolproof. Mine has held its zero and is accuarate since I bought the gun in about 1958. You would have to get a couple holes tapped on the left side. Mine were already factory tapped as it is newer. You probley wont hurt the value much more than it is, as you already have bypassed the value to a serious collector. If you want to stick with open sights it shouldnt be hard to find a elevator, hell, you could make one if you wanted. You will find a peep a little more accurate.

[BigBrad]

Lol! I does look like swiss cheese doesn't it!?!?!
I guess drilling some new holes wouldn't be so bad then.

[AJMD429]

I had to log in seven times in the past four or five minutes, and I forgot to 'copy' the post so I could sneak it in a 'paste' before I got logged off again.

I couldn't view all three photos, and when I finally got one of them up, you DO have lots of holes...

Try giving Williams a call, and with measurements in hand, perhaps you can figure out a way to use a Williams FP or other sight made for another make or model of gun, and wind up maybe modifying the sight or sight base, instead of the gun.

I've done that to temporarily 'test' a setup to see if I liked it enough to get the gun drilled and tapped for the 'real' sight that goes on it, or in some cases for a permanent setup.

One solution might be simply to use the holes on the right and mount the FP base off the right side; I think you could simply remove the aperture-holder (backing out the windage-set-screw then the windage screw), then flipping the aperture-holder around (so the threaded end will still be to the rear). Even if you only fasten it by one hole initially it could help you decide if you like the FP on that gun well enough to go for it.

Here's some sight pics I posted a ways back of some of those sights you mention, if that helps -

(Link = http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... st#p246623 )

Notice the one on the Mauser IS mounted on the right by design, but I think many of the parts are interchangeable. You could easily drill the aluminum sight in new places to match existing holes; one of the FP mouting holes is under the elevation scale and not visible, so it wouldn't even look funny to drill there.

I usually 'ghost ring' the sights anyway by leaving out the apertures, so that simplifies things even more.

If you want to adjust sights all the time for different loads and so on, I'd get the Williams FP with 'target knobs'.

If you sometimes adjust, but not too often, the 'regular' knobs are fine. The "5D" sight is cheaper than the FP, but harder to adjust precisely.

If you don't mind a sight that adjusts the same way the factory open sights do (i.e. you pretty much sight in for one load and stick with that load for that gun), don't rule out the Marble's "Bullseye" sights that simply replace the rear dovetailed barrel sight. Very FAST, and you can see (in the link above) the photos that illustrate how GREAT the view is vs. any other open or aperture type sight.

Anyway, you really might find the pics I link to helpful, if you've not used those specific sights hands-on yet.

...now let's see if this will post THIS time...

[Meeteetse]

Get the elevator and learn to shoot it that way first. If it doesn't work for you, then get some other type of sight. I think simple is always best. Do you know the history of that poor rifle? Someone sure worked it over.

[BigBrad]

The problem is that the elevator is bent up just slightly enough that it won't hold the blade anymore. I've already lost two.
This brings up another question, if I go with the WIllaims FP, what do I do with the elevator? Wouldn't it be in the line of sight?

AJMD, great post with the different sight views. Very helpful. Thanks

[BenT]

You use a brass punch and tap out the rear sight from left to right. You can buy a dovetail blank to put into the empty dovetail if you like. But your going to have to drill holes for any side mounted peeps. You can try a new rear sight from Marbles or Lyman. Midway sells them.

I use a Williams rear sight like this but it has a ghost ring on it instead. Go to williams web sight and download their catalog to see all their options. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=453693 It's simple to put in.

[rjohns94]

If you tap out your rear sight, you can reestablish the spring in the sight by bending it slightly, that will hold the elevator in place. when you put the receiver sight on, you should fill the dovetail with a blank. The other options would be a rear tang sight and you may have to drill to do that too, though I would have to see the tang to be sure. The receiver sight is very fast and will improve your accuracy. I find tang sights a bit slower.

[J Miller]

Since the collectors value is long gone, I'd D&T it on the left side for a Williams FP 94/36, remove the original rear sight and put a blank in, then put a post front sight on getting rid of the bead.

If you want and will wait a while I can take a pic of my 1950s rear sight and elevator. It uses the same sight. That way you'll know what to look for. As rjohns said, just pop the rear sight out and bend it back to where it's supposed to be and you'll not loose the elevators any more.

Then ... I'd pull those plug screws out of the right side and replace them with smooth flattened blind plugs put in from the inside if the holes go all the way through.
If not then I'd blind plug them from the outside and carefully face them down to the surface and touch up blue them. That's just me though.

Joe

[kimwcook]

Someone sure wanted a scope on that carbine. Well, people do what they do. A couple more holes on the left side of the receiver surely isn't going to hurt anything. The advice about putting a bend in the factory rear sight is spot on. Good luck.

[BigBrad]

Thanks for the help guys. Really appreciate the guidance.

Joe,
Good idea on the blind plugs and blue. No sense in not trying to clean it up a little.
Thanks,
BB

[BigBrad]

ok, so it looks like the Williams FP is the choice. I'm looking to replace the front sight as well. i've shot fiber optics before and like them. I see that The Williams Fire Sight is the option. Any reccomendations on the starting point for the width and height?

[J Miller]

ok, so it looks like the Williams FP is the choice. I'm looking to replace the front sight as well. i've shot fiber optics before and like them. I see that The Williams Fire Sight is the option. Any reccomendations on the starting point for the width and height?

Hi there, it's me again ; Here is my modis operandi: I put the rear sight on first, line it up with the front and rear sights then remove the rear barrel sight. Then I shoot it at 100 yds using a 6:00 hold and see if I can get it adjusted to where I want with the original front sight.
If I can then I simply buy a new one (fiber optics in your case, post in mine) as close to that height without going shorter as I can.
That has worked for me for nigh on 35 years now.
So far ... knock on wood ... I've never had to have a taller front sight on a Win Mdl 94 30-30.

In the back of my old Williams paper catalog ( you can download them now on line now ) they have a chart of front sight heights. It shows the .312M sight as being the one to use with the FP94/36 receiver sight. They also show a FO sight at .312M. They also have them .343" and .375" high. All appear to have a tiny 1/16" FO bead.

So you could trust my experience and just measure the existing front sight and buy yourself a FO close to that, or mount the rear sight and work it out for sure.

Oh one tip on the rear sight: Set it up against the receiver with the aperture bar as low in the base as it will go. Then mark the holes. That way you get complete elevation adjustment. If the base is mounted too high you loose some.

I found this out on my Rossi some time back.

Joe

[AJMD429]

Once you get the rear sight on, determine its lowest possible setting, which will result in the lowest point of impact possible using whatever front sight is on the gun at that point. Shoot some at 50 yards, which you will never want below line of sight (typically you'd want to be a bit high at 50 yd to be 'on' at 100, or whatever). THEN if your group at 50 yards is still more than an inch above zero, you'll likely need a taller front sight, and if by chance the group at 50 yards is below zero, you may not need to do anything, IF cranking it up enough to get a couple inches high at 50 yards doesn't make it go so high it pops out of track or something.

To figure the height change needed, just do proportions to fit the geometry...

Im doing this in my head, but I think it's right; it illustrates the method, anyway.

Fifty yards to the target is 150 feet or 1800 inches. Figure out your sight radius next - probably about 24 inches. Now, if you visualize a long 'lever' balanced on the front sight, tipping the target end 1 inch would tip the rear-sight end how much? 1"/1800" would equate to xx"/24" - or xx"=24"/1800" or 24"/(18x100)" - since 24/18=4/3, xx"=4/300" or 0.0133" sight height per inch of desired impact change.