.45 Colt w/ 300gr Hornady question

[J Miller]

I load 23 gr. H110 under the 300 XTP-Mag in my .45 Colt Rossi carbine. This gives slightly better ballistics than the .45-90 BP load in a light gun. I don't think it hurts to shoot. I think (IIRC here!) 45Stomp used 25 gr. under a cast 325 gr. bullet in his .45 Colt Winchester.

I have a .45-70 barrel for my Contender (24") that brings that gun's weight to about 5½-6lbs loaded. 300 gr. FACTORY ammo goes 1800+ fps from that gun. At first the recoil bothered me a bit as the gun went to vertical in a nano-second, or so it seemed. After 20 rounds or so I was enjoying a pleasant plinking session. It was a lot of fun to bust cow paddies out to 100-150 yards with that gun and load.

I think recoil is so subjective that most comparisons are a moot point. Stock design can really change that perceived recoil.

Thanks to forum member msmith1228 I have some H110 and a box of Hornady 300gr .45 Colt bullets.
I'd like to take a second to thank him for his great generosity. We met yesterday briefly and chatted about this and that. Mac it was good to meet you and your wife. We should do it again sometime when we can take the time to sit and have something to snack on and chat a bit longer ..... where it's warm .

Hobie,
You said in the quote above you used the 300 XTP-Mag, my box does not say Mag. What is the difference and how do I tell? I don't have the current or even a late Hornady manual to check it out on. Gonna go look in their site in a few.

Joe

[TedH]

The 300 gr. XTP Mag bullets are just constructed a little stouter. If they are in the original box it will say Mag on it. Also, I think the non-mag 300 grainers had two cannelures where as the Mags only had one. I don't think it makes much difference though. I've seen a regular 300 gr. shoot plum through an elk with no problem.

[Buck Elliott]

The XTP MAGs have a thicker jacket, to withstand higher pressures and velocities. If it doesn't say "MAG" on the box, they aren't.

[J Miller]

Ok, thanks for the info. This is a box of regular HP/XTPs, the bullets have the two groves on them.

I did look them up in the Hornady site and there was exactly ZERO information about the difference. So much for that.

Now one more question. The most popular load seems to be 23 grs of H110. Gonna try that. Which crimp grove should I seat them to? Seat them long, or seat them short?

Joe

[RKrodle]

I did some water test with the 300 xtp mag out of my trapper and they are tough. I couldn't get them to expand, I think your better off with the regular 300 XTP.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the Info, Gentlemen.

[CowboyTutt]

I can only share my personal experiences with both bullets. Out of a Ruger Bisley at about 1200 fps, the XTP mag acted like a solid and did not expand when I shot it through dry wall. However, the mag bullets do expand well in soft dirt at 1400 fps plus change. Therefore, I think anything below 1400 fps I would stick to the non-mag bullets.

-Tutt

[Hobie]

Sorry for the late reply.

Hornady does have a chart showing the recommended velocity range for their XTPs. I found that there is a good correlation between the chart and reality. Since I start the XTP-Mag at over 1700 fps, I figured it was a good fit. The other XTPs are accurate, that was not a problem.

I really like the Sierra 300 gr. FP but the XTPs seem to do well. If I could only get out with them more!

[J Miller]

Sorry for the late reply.

Hornady does have a chart showing the recommended velocity range for their XTPs. I found that there is a good correlation between the chart and reality. Since I start the XTP-Mag at over 1700 fps, I figured it was a good fit. The other XTPs are accurate, that was not a problem.

I really like the Sierra 300 gr. FP but the XTPs seem to do well. If I could only get out with them more!

Hobie,

That makes sense. About what velocity do you get from your rifles from the 23gr H110 load? I'll be trying these from my 94AE Trapper (16") and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy (20").

I've seen those little charts. Hornady normally puts one in each box of ammo. But this box didn't have one.

Also eventually I will be trying the Speer bullets as well.

RKrodle, Tutt,
I will be shooting these from my lever guns. So I suspect the velocity could be higher than the 1400 fps.


Last June I was slinging 250gr Hornady HP/XTP load to standard pressure levels at the 200 yard target at the IN get together. I never heard one hit, but I could see the steel target swing when hit. I kinda got hooked on that. So we shall see what happens.

Joe

[deerwhacker444]

Here's the XTP chart..

[RKrodle]

RKrodle, Tutt,
I will be shooting these from my lever guns. So I suspect the velocity could be higher than the 1400 fps.

Joe

Joe, the load I was using for the 300gr XTP MAG was 22gr of H110 and that was out of my Winchester Trapper for a speed of 1444fps.

[J Miller]

deerwhacker444,

Thanks for the chart. I saved it for future reference.

Ricky,
Thanks, that gives me an idea of what to look for.


Now for the regular 300gr XTPs they have two crimp groves. Should I crimp them short or long with H110?
I looked at the pic on the Hornady site and the crimp grove on the XTP-MAG is about in the middle of the two on the regular XTP.

Joe

[BrianSH]

For the regular 45 XTP's think 45 Colt velocities, regular and plus p.

For the XTP Mag's, think 454 Casull.

- Brian

[RKrodle]

Now for the regular 300gr XTPs they have two crimp groves. Should I crimp them short or long with H110?
I looked at the pic on the Hornady site and the crimp grove on the XTP-MAG is about in the middle of the two on the regular XTP.

Joe

All I could find was MAX C.O.L of 1.600" and that's from Hornady.

[J Miller]

Thanks Ricky.

Joe

[CEMENTHEAD]

Joe,
The Hornady XTP bullets are easy to tell apart.....The MAG version has the bullet jacket rolled over the nose INTO the hollow cavity. the regular version stops at the rim of the cavity. I was told this by the Hornady technicians.

Thanks, Tom

[TedH]

Joe,
I was getting right at 1650 fps out of my 20" Trails End Winchester. That was with 23 gr. of 296 and the 300 gr. XTP Mag bullet.

[CowboyTutt]

Ricky and everyone, I can't explain why his bullets did not expand at similar velocities to mine which did. Perhaps it was that mine were shot into dirt enbankments that made the difference, I'm not sure. Probably the safest bet is to use the bullets somewhere in the middle range or more of what Hornady shows in their chart.
-Tutt

[RKrodle]

Ricky and everyone, I can't explain why his bullets did not expand at similar velocities to mine which did. Perhaps it was that mine were shot into dirt enbankments that made the difference, I'm not sure. Probably the safest bet is to use the bullets somewhere in the middle range or more of what Hornady shows in their chart.
-Tutt

I tested those in water, along with a few other brands, because of the result I was getting with the much softer 250gr XTP. I shot though a piece of 1x12 and then into one gallon water jugs from 25 yards. I also had trouble getting the 240gr XTP mag to expand but I know cnjarvis has had good results with the 240 mag on hogs. I wound up settling on the 265gr Swift A Frame as a primary hunting bullet. The 300gr A Frame also tested very well with the same powder charge as the 300 mag Hornady.

[TedH]

These are all three Hornady XTP bullets fired from 20" leverguns into soaked phone books from about 20 yards. All were loaded near max with velocities between 1650 and 1800 fps.

Left to right, 240 gr. 44 cal., 250 gr. 45 cal., 300 gr. 45 cal. XTP MAG




Retained weight for the 44 cal 240/223gr., 45 cal 250/214 gr., 45 cal 300/275.



Did I mention I am quite fond of the XTP bullet in a variety of calibers?

[CowboyTutt]

Ricky, I find it curious that your bullets did not expand after being shot through wood, and that my XTP mags did not expand at 1200 fps in wall board despite Hornady saying they should at that velocity. I wonder if it is a classic case of a hard material jamming/filling in the hollow point and not expanding????? The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is why would the bullets I've tested still work so well when fired into dirt then???

-Tutt

[RKrodle]

Tutt, of the 6 bullets that I tested, all the same way, the 240mag and 300 mag are the only ones that failed to expand. Now I only did a small sampling so it's not very conclusive. You could be right about the hollow point clogging up but I did not find any wood in the hollow points of the bullets when recovered.

[CowboyTutt]

Wow, I'm stymied then!

[TedH]

It is my belief that you simply can not test the ability of a bullet to expand by shooting into a hard material such as wood, drywall or dirt. The bullets are designed to expand in flesh which is comprised of something like 70% fluid.

The bullets that were fired through boards in front of water jugs may have lost too much velocity going through the wood and weren't in their velocity "window" when hitting the water? Or the HPs were filled with wood debris.

[CowboyTutt]

Ted, I would totally agree with you. But I have always found it encouraging that the XTP mag bullets that I have recovered over the years expanded well but also did not shed the jackets or separate when fired into hard earth. One tough bullet. I cannot for the life of me find my pictures of the recovered bullets on my computer, so I'm just going to post a link to the article I wrote that has the pictures as part of it.

http://www.gunblast.com/AndyTuttle_SW460ES.htm

-Tutt

[RKrodle]

It is my belief that you simply can not test the ability of a bullet to expand by shooting into a hard material such as wood, drywall or dirt. The bullets are designed to expand in flesh which is comprised of something like 70% fluid.

The bullets that were fired through boards in front of water jugs may have lost too much velocity going through the wood and weren't in their velocity "window" when hitting the water? Or the HPs were filled with wood debris.

I would think that a piece of 1x12 pine would be softer then a bone, but it would be more apt to clog the point. But my point, no pun intended, in using what I did for testing was to simulate to some degree an animal. So if the bullet decelerated enough to not expand hitting bone/wood, or it did not expand on the bone/wood then it still would not make a good hunting bullet. When it boils down to it, the only true way to test a bullet is to shoot real flesh and bone. Shooting real flesh and bone and not liking the result is the reason I did the testing I done. I was using 250 xtp's in my trapper and noticing explosive results on small game such raccoons. This worried me that at the speeds I was getting with my trapper that that bullet would be to soft for deer size game. In testing I had a similar problem with the 240 xtp mag, some expanded but some didn't. I'm in no way knocking the Hornady bullets, I shoot lots of them. Now my testing is not the end all be all by any means and also could be flawed. But I didn't have any problems with the 250gr XTP's, 260gr Nosler Partition, or the 265gr and 300gr Swift A frames, all of them hollow points, expanding. And to see how the point on the 300gr mag broke up on one sample instead of expanding makes me have reservations about using it on game. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it .
If anyone wants some of the 300gr XTP mags I have some left and would be willing to share a few for testing proposes.

[TedH]

No doubt the 250 gr. XTP is quite explosive when fired at carbine velocities. The one in my picture is pretty much turned inside out and lost the largest percentage of weight of the three tested. I wasn't knocking your testing Ricky, it was probably a good indicator of what a large heavy animal would do to a bullet. I was just saying I've seen lots of guys complaining about bullet expansion, or rather lack of it, when they fire bullets into lumber or a dirt bank. It's nothing like shooting into flesh and blood.

[RKrodle]

TedH, I never thought you were knocking my testing. I hope I didn't sound offended. I like discussing this kind of thing and am always willing to learn. I would like to see the results of other peoples testing to see how they correspond to my test. I do believe if a bullet won't expand going through wood/bone then it's not what I want to use for game hunting, with the exception of large dangerous game of course. Maybe some of us could get together long distance and coordinate some testing.

[243dave]

In my trapper I shoot both 300gr xtps and 300gr xtp mags in front of 23 grs of h-110. I don't have a chrony but I always figured about 1600fps. I started out with the regular 300gr xtp and killed a couple WV whitetail. Both were one shot kills but no exits because a shoulder was hit. I like exit wounds in case I need to track them. The first one dropped in its tracks. The second I almost lost because it bled very little. The bullets expanded really big and retained weight well. The problem seems to me is that they over expand limiting penetration. The 300gr xtp mag is a whole different bullet. I can't get them to stop in deer even when the bullet travels length-wise. When I tested the xtp mags on phone books they didn't expand at all but they seem to on animals. I have killed a total of three deer with the xtp mags and I can't justify using anything else, my trapper will let me hit a 6" gong everytime at 200yds(I got a 1.5x4.5 banner on it) and they hit deer hard with nice size exit holes. IMO at around 1600fps, if you like exit wounds go with the mags but the regular xtps will do if you don't hit shoulders. Dave

[J Miller]

Dave,

Thanks for the hunt reports.

I've ask this question here three times so I'll ask you and hope you see it and answer me. When you loaded the regular HP-XTP, which crimp grove did you crimp it in?

Joe

[243dave]

Joe, I had to load mine in the top groove(making it shorter). I tried the bottom groove but it made the cartridge too long to chamber in my winchester trapper(it fed fine but just didn't chamber). If I was you I'd load it at the bottom groove and see if it will feed and chamber, just don't put a crimp on it yet and if it don't just use the top groove making it shorter. Dave

[J Miller]

Joe, I had to load mine in the top groove(making it shorter). I tried the bottom groove but it made the cartridge too long to chamber in my winchester trapper(it fed fine but just didn't chamber). If I was you I'd load it at the bottom groove and see if it will feed and chamber, just don't put a crimp on it yet and if it don't just use the top groove making it shorter. Dave

Dave,
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out with a dummy round before I load any for real.
I think though from past loads I've concocted that it will chamber them seated out long just fine.

I hope.

Joe

[nemhed]

Being another XTP fan I really appreciate the info in this thread. Thanks!

[J Miller]

Being another XTP fan I really appreciate the info in this thread. Thanks!

I think the best answer to my question of which crimp grove to use is simply this: Seat it out as far your gun will function with it.

Anyway, a small story while I'm sitting here.
Long long ago, far far away, in the days of yore I use to shoot the Hornady 250gr JHP with great success from my Ruger, S&W, and Winchester. Great accuracy when seated over 8.8grs of Hercules Unique.
Then Hornady in their desire to increase sales discontinued the JHP and came out with the HP-XTP. A totally different concept of a hollow point with a different shaped nose and a pronounced shoulder just forward of the crimp grove. My S&W did not like them, my Winchester couldn't have cared less, and I couldn't chamber them in my Ruger BH. Hmmm, says I what's up with this. THAT was my first educational experience with Rugers undersized chamber throats. Ammo that would not chamber.
Well, time has passed, my S&W still don't like them, the Winchester still couldn't care less, my Ruger has a new cylinder with proper throats and I still prefer the old JHP design. I have one box stashed for nostalgia I guess. They were much more accurate in my guns than the XTP versions, and I'll bet they still would be if I could find enough to do a comparison test.

The one thing that makes the Hornady bullets the ones I buy is most stores have them in stock. If you want some other brand you get the old tired comment: "Oh I don't stock those, but I'll order 'em for ya." Nah, too much trouble.
Oh, there's really no moral or ending to this little story.


Joe

[RKrodle]

I know what you mean Joe. I have more Hornady setting on my reloading bench then any other brand. Some of it is because of the calibers I shoot, namely 348 and 358, Hornady is the only one who makes a readily available inexpensive bullet for them. They make good inexpensive bullets for a lot calibers and they work. Kind of like the Rem core loks.

[J Miller]

Well, the issue of the seating depth has been settled ... by the rifles.
243dave you were correct, my Win 94AE Trapper would not chamber the Hornady 300gr with the bullet seated to and crimped in the bottom grove.

The Marlin could be forced, but that's not good either.

My Ruger BH is fine with them.

So, I'll seat them short and go from there.

Joe

[m48shooter]

just the info i was looking for... two more questions...

what is the bore/ bullet dia for your 300 gr hp... i have two boxes, one is the xpt with a bd of .452, the other is 300 gr hp w bd of .458...?

is anyone running 4227 under the 300 gr hp... found the load data in my speer manual, but look for personal experience... the rds will be run through a hartford trapper 92, and a ruger bh... thx again..

[RKrodle]

m48shooter, the .458 dia. bullets are for the 45-70. the .452's are for the 45 Colt. I like 4227 and use it in some of my 45 Colt loads.

[J Miller]

just the info i was looking for... two more questions...

what is the bore/ bullet dia for your 300 gr hp... i have two boxes, one is the xpt with a bd of .452, the other is 300 gr hp w bd of .458...?

is anyone running 4227 under the 300 gr hp... found the load data in my speer manual, but look for personal experience... the rds will be run through a hartford trapper 92, and a ruger bh... thx again..

Ricky covered the bullets but the grove diameter of my Marlin and Winchester are at the .451" to .4515" point.
I have use IMR 4227 with the 250gr Hornady HP-XTPs and it worked very well. I don't have any to try with 300 gr bullets right now.

Joe

[m48shooter]

thx u gents.. i will be moving the .458's into the trade box...