No Modern Camo?

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:44 pm

I read 86er's post about a traditional levergun hunt (which just sounded like a levergun hunt to me), and the rule "no modern camoflauge" jumped out at me and reminded me of something I've wanted ask.

Why in the world do people where camouflage when hunting deer, or most other game for that matter? I've been hunting small game, foul, deer, and large game for over 45 years, and with the exception of turkey - where I wore tie-dyed pants and shirt and made my face look like Al Jolson - I've never worn camo. I've snuck close enough to game to kick them and never felt at any disadvantage with just jeans, shirt, and a stylish cowboy hat covering me.

Now when I venture out in the field, every one's got camo on, and I don't know if it makes it harder for the game to see them, but it sure makes it harder for me to see them. And I'm not sure that's good for anyone.

Other than giving me something to laugh at, why do people feel compelled to wear camo every time they go into the field? It is obvious by 86er's post and years of experience picked-up by myself and others that it isn't necessary. So please, if I'm missing something other than another gadget, enlighten me.

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:46 pm

Because Cabela's says so....of course. It's called fashion. Or fad...or something.

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:01 pm

That's a good question and deserves some discussion. I may be preaching to the choir, but some folks seem to not be aware of this. Modern clothing, including the best camo is created with UV brighteners. The brighteners make colors stand out and last longer. It also prevents fading from the sun (UV radiation). UV in new camo patterns makes the pattern more distinct. Almost all laundry detergent contains UV brighteners too. Now the deer. It is scientifically proven that they see best in the far and near ends of the UV spectrum, so their world is kind of black, white and blue. New camo might blend into a tree or a background to human vision, but it looks like a bright blue blob to deer. The only thing that looks like a blue blob to deer is humans. So, even the best leafy 3D superflauge is useless if it is glowing blue in the UV spectrum. You would be much better off with plain colored black, grey or tan clothes that are UV free! The most important thing you can do with hunting clothes is to use UV Killer spray after washing with Sport Wash or one of the few other brands with NO UV brighteners. I am a fanatic about UV, testing all my hunting clothes with a UV light to make sure they do not glow blue in the UV spectrum. (LEO's and military should be doing the same to keep from glowing blue to enemies night vision). Good camo with dark and light colors that is properly treated and doesn't glow blue shows dark shades of green and grey to the deer. The pattern just breaks up the color tones to help conceal a distinct outline of your form. This is one of the reasons the old red-black plaid worked pretty good. Wool is naturally scent free and resists absorbing scents. It is also very difficult to treat with UV brighteners. Back in it's heyday the detergents did not all have UV brightener so the wool stayed pretty well dull to deer's vision. The pattern broke up the clear human outline. This holds true in Africa as well. Eventually, all the camps laundry is done in fire boiled water with natural oils and plants added to remove stains and tumbled with rocks for aggitation. The traditional earth tones of the hunting outfits were not treated with UV and did not pick up any during the field laundry process. Therefore, the African outfits showed greens, greys and blacks to the deer.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:06 pm

How about because the clothes generally are relatively inexpensive and in some cases are available with good insulation for cold mornings. If anyone wants to wear a pair of bluejeans and a buffalo plaid jacket when it is 30 degrees out and the wind is blowing at 20 mph, they can, but i'll take some quilted camo coveralls or bibs *with a blaze orange coat in rifle season. There may be other colors available, but camo is generally what is on the rack at a lot of places

As well, when they are your "designated huntin' clothes" your less apt to care about blood stains -- snags and tears.

Personally, i wear the stuff because i can buy 2 or 3 complete outfits of gear at a local Army/Navy type store without busting 200 bucks. I keep a couple of complete sets of old style BDU's , a field jacket, and a MOPP suit (charcoal lined chemical warfare suit ) for bow season. The clothes are cheap, durable, and expendable, as well, i have yet to be in a situation where "Scentlock" brand stuff would have done me any better than my $30 US Army chem suit.

I'm prior service, and lived in clothes like that for years, so i may be more comfortable in that type of get-up than someone who may think its "playing army" though.

Incidentally, my last deer harvested , i was wearing jeans and a blaze jacket and hat though. I dont see a practical need for concealment when i am stand hunting 100 - 150 yards away from the draw where i expected the deer to walk out of. So yes, i wear camo a lot, but i'm not married to the practice.

Bowhunting though? Thats a different story for me and i will probably be constructing a ghillie suit this off season as well

EDIT: just read 86er's post and i am now wondering if mil-spec BDU's are treated with any UV brighteners -- hmmmm

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:18 pm

Streetstar wrote:Personally, i wear the stuff because i can buy 2 or 3 complete outfits of gear at a local Army/Navy type store without busting 200 bucks.

Because they're cheap is a really good reason. But the ones I usually see in the field look like they just came out of some fashion store like Bass Pro Outfitters or something similar. And the ones they sell around here are certainly not cheap. I can buy three good pairs of Wrangler jeans at Wal-Mart for the price of one pair of camo pants with "Realtree" embroidered on the back pocket. Now, a decade or two ago when my kids were in the "service" and I'd not yet learned to down half a ham at lunch time, I'd get plenty of BDU's for free - and you bet I wore them then - they were free.

Regarding UV's and such, I don't use soaps with "brighteners" so I'm immune to glowing in the field. And when I get real serious or have used glowing soap, I wash up a batch of clothes in Fels Nafta soap just clean out the glow. (I keep Fels Nafta around for thick hides that don't want to tan easily). I find keeping in cover, moving slow, and watching the wind to be more helpful when stalking than the clothes I'm wearing.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:25 pm

To tell the truth the main reasons I wear camo are these: a) People bought it for me as a gift and b) it gives me designated hunting clothes so I can keep blood and barb wire tears outta my work clothes.

I do wear full camo for callin coyotes. Even more so in winter (full white). But in general I think fasion is a good discription for todays camo.

Is it bad? No. Does it help? Yes, to some degree IMO. Is it a requirement? Heck no as is proof by the amount of solid orange I wear each deer season. The main reason camo works is it breaks up patterns and makes you look less like a 2 legged varmint that is trying to eat the critter looking at you. Color aside.

LK

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:28 pm

Although I do own some "brush country" camo for huntin' bucks on the ranch, I mostly just wear tan t-shirts and blue jeans. The only serious camo we wear is Max4D for duck and goose hunting. Good coverage, including a face mask, is a must.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:41 pm

I was out javalina hunting last year during the rifle season and had a couple boys in camo dogging me. I was hunting a wash and kept seeing one of the guys, in full camo carrying a heavy barreled bolt action rifle - in full camo with bipod - sneaking in and out of mesquites about 20 feet above me and 30 yards ahead. I'd see him moving and then he's disappear and leap frog ahead and I'd spot him again. I finally decided to walk directly toward him, making sure he saw me, and didn't lift that rifle to his shoulder. I walked up polite and friendly and asked if he's seen anything and what his plan was since we were obviously hunting the same wash. He said "we've seen you for a while now" and I asked who "we" were. He said he and another friend who was watching us now from the ridge across the wash. I noticed he had a walkie-talkie (I guess they still call them that) straped to his shoulder and a camo covered four-wheeler stationed behind some brush (that explained the leap frogging). I wished him "good luck" and went about my hunting - in a different direction. I also made a mental note to myself - hunt during the handgun season to avoid the getting the creeps from all the camo coated "hunters."

Not knowing where other hunters are and being surpised are really not good things. At least I don't think they are. I guess camo says "hunter" to many folks, to this old cowboy camo can whisper other things.

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:43 pm

I prefer guys in jeans and cowboy hats not to see me.

If you don't see them, you might not be doing as good a job as you think you are.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:48 pm

Mike D. wrote:The only serious camo we wear is Max4D for duck and goose hunting. Good coverage, including a face mask, is a must.

Why is it a must? I am curious. Before moving to Arizona, I killed so many ducks and geese my wife told me to stop unless I planned on eating the dozen or so I still had in the freezer (and she could make this statement all fall and winter long). And since I'd eaten so many ducks, cooked every way imaginable, in the previous few weeks, I stopped shooting ducks for a while. Now, everytime I visit my old stomping grounds in the fall and winter, I nail a bunch of ducks and geese - sans the camo.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:48 pm

cas wrote:I prefer guys in jeans and cowboy hats not to see me.

If you don't see them, you might not be doing as good a job as you think you are.

Ain't that the truth.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:14 pm

Streetstar wrote:How about because the clothes generally are relatively inexpensive and in some cases are available with good insulation for cold mornings. If anyone wants to wear a pair of bluejeans and a buffalo plaid jacket when it is 30 degrees out and the wind is blowing at 20 mph, they can, but i'll take some quilted camo coveralls or bibs *with a blaze orange coat in rifle season. There may be other colors available, but camo is generally what is on the rack at a lot of places

As well, when they are your "designated huntin' clothes" your less apt to care about blood stains -- snags and tears.

Personally, i wear the stuff because i can buy 2 or 3 complete outfits of gear at a local Army/Navy type store without busting 200 bucks. I keep a couple of complete sets of old style BDU's , a field jacket, and a MOPP suit (charcoal lined chemical warfare suit ) for bow season. The clothes are cheap, durable, and expendable, as well, i have yet to be in a situation where "Scentlock" brand stuff would have done me any better than my $30 US Army chem suit.

I'm prior service, and lived in clothes like that for years, so i may be more comfortable in that type of get-up than someone who may think its "playing army" though.

Incidentally, my last deer harvested , i was wearing jeans and a blaze jacket and hat though. I dont see a practical need for concealment when i am stand hunting 100 - 150 yards away from the draw where i expected the deer to walk out of. So yes, i wear camo a lot, but i'm not married to the practice.

Bowhunting though? Thats a different story for me and i will probably be constructing a ghillie suit this off season as well

EDIT: just read 86er's post and i am now wondering if mil-spec BDU's are treated with any UV brighteners -- hmmmm

+1 my m65 is camaflouged cause that's the way it was issued. in pa. you have a blaze orange requirement so it negates the camo anyway. mil surplus is good quality stuff that don't break the bank for the poor hunter like me.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:19 pm

You sir are no idiot! If you are, i'm the same sort of idiot!

it makes no sense to me for a person to spend a couple of hundred dollars on the latest camo clothing line, and then top it with legally required blaze orange vest and hat. That certainly makes him hard to see!

If i were hunting men, I'd wear camoflague and face paint, without the blaze orange vest.

IMO camflague hunting clothes is the height of silliness. When I hit the woods, I want other hunters to be able to see me. i don't want some doofus to try a "brush shot" with my jacket providing the brush. In a tree stand I want some squirrel hunter to see ME, not a big clump of branches that might be a gigantic squirrel nest.

Imo the popularity of camo clothes is nothing more than an example of superior salesmanship. Sort of like most fishing lures being designed to catch fishermen rather than fish.

I'll stick with my old-fashioned camoflague, khakis or olive drab shirts and pants.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:27 pm

90% of the reason I wear camo insulated coveralls is because they are insulated coveralls. You can't find any that aren't camo, unless they are very heavy denim fabric, which is noisy. I have a 20+ year old set of Walls Realtree Grey coveralls that have been ripped and torn and I dread the day the stuffing falls out of them. All the new coveralls seem to be made of fleece-like material that I don't care for because it snags on too much stuff.

About the only time I really think about color is hunting pronghorn. If it's cold I wear a white ski mask. Many an antelope has come to me after seeing me peek over the hill, rather than run away.

Joe, is a UV light the same as a blacklight? Or is it more than that?

Wind · Post by **Wind** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:19 pm

I've always wondered about the camo lighter and wallet concept!! "Hey Fred, how did your fly-in moose trip in northern Canada go?" "Never saw one, dropped my billfold and spent the whole week crawling around trying to find it. Never saw a moose....". Best regards. Wind

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:29 pm

Where I wear camo now it is because that is what is available. It also sets that piece of clothing aside for a different washing method. Most only clothing I have that is camo (now, I've gotten rid of my BDUs) is whatever that insulated/warm in cold weather. I'll just wear what I've got on to go hunting in earlier/warmer seasons.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:34 pm

Brown Carhartts seem to blend in pretty well around here... and every other place I've ever lived.

I have one cammo hooded jacket. UV or not... it's too "green" for Oklahoma.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:03 pm

Wind wrote:I've always wondered about the camo lighter and wallet concept!! "Hey Fred, how did your fly-in moose trip in northern Canada go?" "Never saw one, dropped my billfold and spent the whole week crawling around trying to find it. Never saw a moose....". Best regards. Wind

No kidding. How about a camo Bible? Same one that costs 9 dollars is 28 dollars with mossy Oak on the cover. I guess you don't want to spook the deer when you're sitting in the stand on Sunday morning. The lighting bolt might give you away though. (just dry humor-not knocking anyone's faith)

I have always wondered about camo knifes.

If you've ever tried to find a dropped knife in hip-deep sage brush, you'd want a blaze orange handled knife.

By the time I pull it out, I doubt it would spook the deer.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:29 pm

When I hunt, I wear my hunting coat. It's the one with my map, foil-wrapped TP, whistle, and drag rope in the pockets. Italso happens to be camo.

When I used to hunt in the doe zone (where the mantra of many is, "if it's brown, it's down" I wore a blaze orange camo pattern coat. Camo patterns break up a profile and a deer can't pull your shape out of the background even if it's orange. They simply lack the brain power to do so. Keep still and they will walk right up to ya if they don't recognize you as a predator (helps if they can't see both eyes).

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:02 pm

Every place I've lived requires about 4000 sq-in of Blaze anyway, so what's the point?

As for the UV thing 86er mentioned - Yep, Yep & Yep. Go buy a cheap Blacklight and see how much your camo glows... then wash the heck out of it in good old Lye Soap.

That or just hit the Army Navy as mentoned before.

Tumbleweeds II · Post by **Tumbleweeds II** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:50 pm

Couple of years ago I was sitting on the ground, leaning against a tree, waiting for a deer to come to water. As required, I was wearing orange vest and cap. Along came two turkeys, and one of them stood and stated at me for a good five minutes. I sat completely still, as I had been doing anyway, and didn't even move my eyes, and she was clearly wondering what that huge blob of inert orange was. Eventually, they decided I was either dead or as dumb as I looked and moseyed off eating acorns.

I still wear camo when turkey hunting, but it makes you think.

I saw a book the other day about turkey hunting, and the author always wears two different camo patterns, as in pants in one and shirt in another. Claims it breaks up his outline, but hunters can see it. Based on the pictures in the book, he's right.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:45 am

Hillbilly wrote:Brown Carhartts seem to blend in pretty well around here... and every other place I've ever lived.

I have one cammo hooded jacket. UV or not... it's too "green" for Oklahoma.

I purposely dont wear solid brown or gray colors when hunting. I am an Okie too, and i agree that they would blend in as well as anything, but after hearing hunters in diners and gas stations talk about the 800 yard shots they attempted (western Oklahoma) ---- i dont want to be on the receiving end of some fool's 7-Mag because he cant distinguish a 2 legged animal walking to a stand from a 4 legged animal eating acorns (just paranoid i guess)

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:41 pm

Lets see...I have woodland camo...Realtree, Mossyoak, 3D fusion...
and I may even have some treebark camo from way back....This time of year,
I like wearing camo when hunting....around the house...anywhere really....
It tells you who and what I am.....a Country boy who just loves the outdoors!
We dont have to wear blaze orange on private land
I think camo helps out a lot in the woods.....Helps break up your outline..movement
I have had just about every critter in the florida woods walk right up to me....
Deer, turkey, bears, foxes, ....had owls land in the tree right next to me....
Even had tree frogs jump on my green camo shirt and try to get under a leaf...
As long as I play the wind right....it helps....
Even my snake boots are camoed...

But I love wearing my red and black plad shirts, with an old pair of jeans...
and carrying and old winchester....or shotgun...
its just the way we dressed when I was growing up....

on public land we need to were a vest and thats all.....
It cracks me up when I see guys up north, completely decked out in a blaze
orange suit from head to toe....

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:48 pm

Okay...I understand why some wear camo in the field.....but this??

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... 01724&rid=

Camo long underwear?? Really?? I guess it goes with the camo bed sheets and camo seat covers too.....

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:12 pm

Well, I guess I'm just plumb out of touch and and devoid of any fashion sense. Now if I can just find that camo lighter my grandkids gave me so I can start this fire and get these bisquits going.

Doc Hudson wrote:I'll stick with my old-fashioned camoflague, khakis or olive drab shirts and pants.

Add to that blue jeans, an old shirt, cowboy hat, and a good shooting iron. Hey Doc, we could be kin, except I hear you make far better bisquits. I got mine too close to the coals last night a burned the whole works!

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:49 pm

Some of ya'll take this stuff too seriously.

I fly fish, ride a motorcycle, play poker and hunt. I have boxers with fly rods, some with motorcycles, some with little cards, and yes, some camo. I get em as gifts from my wife, who thinks the idea is cute. I could care less, and she's happy.

MT Gianni · Post by **MT Gianni** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:50 pm

One other reason to wear camo is it is so cheap after hunting season closes. Warm clothes that hopefully are silent at 1/3-1/4th retail.

Why it is pushed is visible at the SHOT show. Most of the $s in hunting come from the clothes.

OK357 · Post by **OK357** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:02 pm

When I crawl around the bush hunting beaver I tend to do it naked.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:36 pm

stew71 wrote:Okay...I understand why some wear camo in the field.....but this??

Camo long underwear?? Really?? I guess it goes with the camo bed sheets and camo seat covers too.....

Don't forget the camo nighties and camisoles. They're pointless, but fun nonetheless. Of course, if I bought 'em, they would end up stuffed in a drawer along with all the red, black and pink ones....

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:51 pm

When I could and for everything I could legally I hunted primitive with either a muzzleloader or an antique rifle. I hunted in period clothing including breechclout and moccasins down to -20. I never felt handicaped and ussually brought home my game. The only time I wera anything other than a wool shirt and pants is when i am required by law to wear hunter orange. I find camo less important than movement in al my hunting. I do prefer a grey or light brown capote for most work, but have done almost as well with dark green in the cedar thickets. In fact the only camo I own is oon my sneak boat for duck hunting as with black powder like to get into 30 yards or so and I have to hide a whole kayak.

rock-steady · Post by **rock-steady** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:16 pm

I mix and match camo, most often a mossy oak or realtree shirt and woodland bdu pants. It is seldom cold enough for a coat around here. I wear a blaze orange vest and hat nowadays. I never wear Carhardtt brown in the woods though. I don't want some gomer looking at me through his scope. I never understood one of these either, maybe a hunter with a deathwish would wear one.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Depends on what king of hunting. I only wear camo on sit and stalk hunts. I'm with Cas,.... I prefer not to be seen by anyone when hunting,.... old habits never seem to die.

I have grown to appreciate 3D leaf over cloths in Advantage Timber pattern, with hood and mitts. It has excellent subdued colors for year round use here in Az.. And it is loose and bulky enough to fit over my jean pants and jacket,... but I do have to take my "cowboy" hat off.

My old BDU's are relegated to bucking hay, mending fence and shoeing horses.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:57 am

Around here, modern camo clothing is the most economical hunting gear to be had, especially after deer season. Not a lot of plaid wool on sale then!

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:41 pm

I never wore camo until about two years ago. I started because it is made of heavy durable fabric that is resistant to thorns, barbed wire, nails, etc. It is also cut very full and lose something important for a fat man like me. It is also cheaper than 'regular' clothes because my wife buys all mine at WalMart after the hunting season when it is 75% off.

win7094M1 · Post by **win7094M1** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:37 pm

It is all about efficiency and practicality. 75 percent off after hunting season is good. Anytime a dollar can be streched is usually great!

SubDoc · Post by **SubDoc** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:52 pm

Camo is mostly a commercial scam. I watch some of theTV hunting shows where guys are shooting 450 yard shots at elk across canyons all camo'ed up like the elk could see them anyway.

The Schulz family has been hunting big game including pronghorn for the last 50 years using traditional Howard Hill style longbows. Even if you are an amazing shot..and they are you still have to limit your range to less than 40 yards or so. They do not wear camo and it doesn't seem to limit their take in the field.

Since I met them I have gotten away from camo all together and learned to hunt. No camo, no tree stand, no rifle scopes and enjoy my self much more. My rifles are iron sighted leverguns or single shots, my shotguns are doubles my hunting handgun is a 4 5/8" fixed sight Linebaugh 45 Bisley Vaquero and my bow is a longbow.

Here is a link to the hunting gallery on their archery site.

http://www.americanleathers.com/photoga ... allery.htm.

Check out the big deer, pronghorns and lions.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:05 pm

This is all a little like arguing if my neighbor is a "real" gardener because he uses a rototiller. Just sayin'....

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:28 pm

nemhed wrote:This is all a little like arguing if my neighbor is a "real" gardener because he uses a rototiller. Just sayin'....

That's funny right there.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:46 pm

As far as gun season goes, I agree, Camouflage is a little over the top and not required. Especially if BLAZE ORANGE is required!
In Gun Season, I typically wear a pair of KEY Denim Overalls with a pair of thermal underwear and any color of sweat pants/shirt that I have. The older I get the more I am convienced overalls are AWESOME!

When it comes to bow hunting and varmint hunting (Coyote, Bobcat, Fox) you definately need CAMO.

+1 on ensuring it is cared for properly. I wash mine in Baking Soda, and dry it without a dryer sheet and store it outside in a bag underneath a big evergreen in my front yard. It is clean, but smells like the outdoors!

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:31 am

Actually for deer hunting, gun season I wear an orange vest over my camo jacket.

I bought my hunting coat because it's quite, warm, with lots of pockets. The camo didn't enter into it.

SFRanger7GP · Post by **SFRanger7GP** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:08 am

All military fatigues issued since the 80's (BDU's, TCU's, etc.) have been UV treated. If I'm stalking, I wear what's most comfortable and quiet to walk in. If I'm in a "Texas tree house", it doesn't matter what I wear as long as I'm comfortable. The only time what I am wearing seemed to matter was turkey hunting with a shotgun.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:40 am

86er was right in that you just need to break up your outline. The old plaid works just fine. I don't wear blue jeans but my greenish brown brushpants. The last pair of insulated bibs I bought were camo because they were on close out. I just use them when I sit . When walking around that is when a little break up pattern helps , but it doesn't haven't to be camo . I'll stick with my wool stuff.