Marlin 1895g vs 1895 in 45-70

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:42 pm

Which do you think would be the better choice for PA deer and black bear? I might use it for elk/moose/brown bear too, someday. The 1895 is supposed to be more accurate. Is that true? Does the 1895g loose enough velocity to make a difference?

Thanks.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:52 pm

Guide gun vs what? Standard 20"? I don't think there's any difference in accuracy unless you are sticking with open/iron sights and then the shorter sight radius of the guide gun will allow for more sighting error. If you're going with optics, then no diff.

As to velocity, the 45-70 has a large expansion ratio being such a large caliber and beyond a certain point the velocity lossi is minimal compared to a smaller caliber. So, IMHO thats not a reason to choose one or the other.

The guide gun will carry easier, is lighter and will recoil a bit more... handles fewer rounds in the mag...

For the brown bear, the standard version's extra magazine capacity would be comforting...

Really depends on what your personal preferences are. Either one will be fully up to the tasks that you list.

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:55 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Guide gun vs what?

The 1895. It's the standard 22" barreled version.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:56 pm

if you hunt the mountian ridges in the middle of the state the g is pretty handy. a 100 yard shot is LONG ONE in the brush country. older i get i want the lighter and shorter i want my rifles to get. the 45-70 drops a lot after 200 yards, which, again is a long way off in that terrian. don't think the extra barrel will give you much advantage at those ranges.

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:59 pm

tman wrote:if you hunt the mountian ridges in the middle of the state the g is pretty handy. a 100 yard shot is LONG ONE in the brush country. older i get i want the lighter and shorter i want my rifles to get. the 45-70 drops a lot after 200 yards, which, again is a long way off in that terrian. don't think the extra barrel will give you much advantage at those ranges.

I'm over east 50miles north of Pittsburgh. It's pretty brushy and hilly. Thanks for the replies guys! And thanks to those who will!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:01 pm

I find the shortest barrels to be more accurate than longest. At least at farther distances. Longer barrels, with slightly better velocity, does not result in better accuracy.

My choice would depend on what kind of hunting condition .

Heavy woods? Shorter barrel.

Open country? Longer barrel.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:03 pm

Hmm - 22" you are right. I just checked the Marlin site and they both have the same 4 round mags too.

I have a Davidson's LTD 24" cowboy type model that has an 8-round mag.

I would go with the Guide Gun and its 18.5" barrel and standard capacity mag. For sure.

And no ports! I hate ports.

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:09 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Hmm - 22" you are right. I just checked the Marlin site and they both have the same 4 round mags too.

I have a Davidson's LTD 24" cowboy type model that has an 8-round mag.

I would go with the Guide Gun and its 18.5" barrel and standard capacity mag. For sure.

And no ports! I hate ports.

Me too! Those hurt you eyes (not to mention ears)!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:16 pm

Just to be ornery, I like shooting my 1895 CB much mo betta than the 1895GS. Just balances better with the 26" BBL. I always feel like if you can't manuver a longer BBL rifle thru the thick stuff, better take up knitting

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:40 pm

Of the three generally available barrel lengths, I prefer the guide gun length. You don't really give up enough accuracy, in fact some guides maybe more accurate than the others and vice versa. And, I doubt the reduction in muzzle velocity is worth worrying about. For me the guide guns handle better. Being shorter, they swing faster, and are easier to carry, both because of the length and weight. Then too, I prefer the straight stock as opposed to the pistol grip. Although I admit I like the look of pistol grip stocks, they don't feel as good to me as a straight stock.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:50 pm

[And no ports! I hate ports.]

'Sounds like the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner !

.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:26 pm

bearhunter wrote:
tman wrote:if you hunt the mountian ridges in the middle of the state the g is pretty handy. a 100 yard shot is LONG ONE in the brush country. older i get i want the lighter and shorter i want my rifles to get. the 45-70 drops a lot after 200 yards, which, again is a long way off in that terrian. don't think the extra barrel will give you much advantage at those ranges.

I'm over east 50miles north of Pittsburgh. It's pretty brushy and hilly. Thanks for the replies guys! And thanks to those who will!

i like to hunt chestnut ridge were routes 22 and 119 intersect. anywhere by you?

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:56 pm

Bearhunter...forget the 45-70, its very overrated. Find a .444 Outfitter with the ports...you won't believe how little they recoil. Power...rivals the 45-70 with almost no difference & much flatter shooting. Strap on a good .44 mag pistol & you can use the same bullet in both! Like a 310gr. Lee. A 290gr. Ranchdog. Take your pick pard.

I like the ports. On either rifle. There...I said it!

Me & Marshall Stanton...Yeah, that's it!

LB

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:02 pm

Ballistically speaking, I don't think any animal will ever be able to tell the difference.

While I once owned a new M1895 in the mid-80's, then an 1895S (sporter), - when the guide Gun was introduced I found it (and it's concept) exciting, and so bought/shot/hunted with it for two years.

I then sold it after the 2 years (even though I wasn't bothered by the porting), to try first a .444 BB94 Timber Carbine, and then a .450M BB94 Timber, before settling back on the regular 2/3 mag, 22" bbl M1895 after realizing that it really did handle the best - not necessarily the fastest, just the best for me.

I usually hunt thick, swampy & brushy areas, and have never found the extra 3 1/2" of barrel to be a hinderance - but I've never scoped a .45-70 in my entire life.

YMMV, of course.

All that said, bearhunter, I think that a .45-70 just might be a bit too much gun for a young teenager to handle, and you would be better served with a .44 Magnum rifle.
My son's been using one successfully for the past 25 years, or so.

.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:22 pm

BlaineG said it my way!! I do have an 1895 with the short 22" barrel also. Both are shooters.

win92 · Post by **win92** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:30 pm

I prefer the slightly longer barrel 22" But that being said I don't want to carry a 26" either.
There will be a tiny bit more muzzle blast with the 18" guide gun but this topic all boils to personal preferance!!

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:50 pm

I have tried them all and prefer the 22" 1895SS.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:19 pm

Strap on a good .44 mag pistol & you can use the same bullet in both!

Why, then you'd have two .429 +P shooters instead of a .459 Mag

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:29 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Strap on a good .44 mag pistol & you can use the same bullet in both!
Why, then you'd have two .429 +P shooters instead of a .459 Mag

BWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAA.......

LB

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:29 pm

Actually,... most 444 seem to be micro groove barrels which demand the use of a .432 diameter bullet. At least that is what I will be casting. I believe the 45/70 uses a .457 diameter bullet. Anyone want to claim "mine is bigger than yours" bragging rights,... have at it. But your only bragging on .025 of an inch difference.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 pm

I shoot .459`s in my .45-70`s. Hay, that`s way bigger (.027??? ) than any .444 bullet.

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:07 am

tman wrote:
bearhunter wrote:
tman wrote:if you hunt the mountian ridges in the middle of the state the g is pretty handy. a 100 yard shot is LONG ONE in the brush country. older i get i want the lighter and shorter i want my rifles to get. the 45-70 drops a lot after 200 yards, which, again is a long way off in that terrian. don't think the extra barrel will give you much advantage at those ranges.

I'm over east 50miles north of Pittsburgh. It's pretty brushy and hilly. Thanks for the replies guys! And thanks to those who will!
i like to hunt chestnut ridge were routes 22 and 119 intersect. anywhere by you?

I'm not shure. I google mapped it and it looks south of pitt.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:17 am

Chuck 100 yd wrote:I shoot .459`s in my .45-70`s. Hay, that`s way bigger (.027??? ) than any .444 bullet.

I guess you got me, that is a HUGE difference

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:18 am

Bear hunter, my go to gun is a 1895ss. I tried the guide and kept the full size. just my opinion. Great shooters though. Tom

bearhunter · Post by **bearhunter** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:59 pm

fordwannabe wrote:Bear hunter, my go to gun is a 1895ss. I tried the guide and kept the full size. just my opinion. Great shooters though. Tom

Is it a good woods gun with the long barrel?

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:17 pm

Buy both and have them sent to me. I will conduct a thorough evaluation of both rifles. Upon completion of the evaluation, I will immediately send you the best one!

Honestly, 18 1/2" vs 22", there really isnt much of a difference in weight, or velocity. Its all going to be which feels better when handling.
I would go to a store where I could handle both and make that decision when I was able to compare. For me, it might take several trips!

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:41 pm

I bought the standard 1895 22" last spring.it is neither too long or short and I won't change a thing on it 'cept I put a sling on Her and it took 10 minutes to mount the Williams FP. Life is Good.

.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:02 pm

bearhunter wrote:
tman wrote:
bearhunter wrote:
tman wrote:if you hunt the mountian ridges in the middle of the state the g is pretty handy. a 100 yard shot is LONG ONE in the brush country. older i get i want the lighter and shorter i want my rifles to get. the 45-70 drops a lot after 200 yards, which, again is a long way off in that terrian. don't think the extra barrel will give you much advantage at those ranges.

I'm over east 50miles north of Pittsburgh. It's pretty brushy and hilly. Thanks for the replies guys! And thanks to those who will!
i like to hunt chestnut ridge were routes 22 and 119 intersect. anywhere by you?

I'm not shure. I google mapped it and it looks south of pitt.

yea, se of pittsburgh in the old appalaichan mountain chain. beautiful country!

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:15 pm

The .45-70 is what the .444 wishes it could be when it grows up...

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:05 pm

I prefer the standard 1895 with a 22" barrel. I like the pistol grip stock. I'd like the Cowboy if it had a 20" barrel.

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:55 am

I like it but at 6'1" and a used to be 400 pounds it really didn't matter that much weight wise and the extra barrel lenght hasn't been a problem either. Tom(now down to a svelt 330 and going down)

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:58 am

I'm with Buck - if you are going to throw a big slow bullet, throw a BIG slow bullet.

Paul LC · Post by **Paul LC** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:10 pm

Old Savage wrote:I'm with Buck - if you are going to throw a big slow bullet, throw a BIG slow bullet.

I agree completely. Use a BIG SLOW bullet.

Wasn't there a time when a 405 grain bullet traveling at 1200 - 1300 fps was considered to be very effective?

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:44 pm

76/444 wrote:I believe the 45/70 uses a .457 diameter bullet.

Some do, some don't. All groove diameters are not EXACTLY the same. SAAMI spec. is .458 but if you're using cast, you'll want another .001-.002 in bullet diameter. Either way it IS a true 45 caliber, and almost a 46.

I do agree that it's nice to have a handgun same caliber as your rifle, so I bought a BFR in 45-70.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:24 pm

I get a kick out of the guys who think they need a pistol-length carbine to manage "Heavy Brush." If the brush is that thick, you won't be doing any shooting anyway, no matter WHAT you're packing. How do you think men ever manage to get through thick willows and alders with an Eight-Foot Fly Rod, fer Heaven's sake...?

The thick-brush argument is a complete sham, perpetrated by long-forgotten Gun Writers, who had to blame something for their momentary (or persistant) lack of success.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:35 pm

What I got a kick out of was the carbine length pistol in 45-70 that I briefly owned a couple of years ago!

No joke, I had a T/C Contender with a 12" 45-70 barrel, that I got on trade. I fired about 3 rounds out of that configuration and did some more trading!

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:12 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:I get a kick out of the guys who think they need a pistol-length carbine to manage "Heavy Brush." If the brush is that thick, you won't be doing any shooting anyway, no matter WHAT you're packing. How do you think men ever manage to get through thick willows and alders with an Eight-Foot Fly Rod, fer Heaven's sake...?

The thick-brush argument is a complete sham, perpetrated by long-forgotten Gun Writers, who had to blame something for their momentary (or persistant) lack of success.

i don't hunt from a jeep or a helicopter. i don't do the canned hunt thing. for me, a 20" barreled lever works. it gets to my shoulder quick. as i get older, the lighter and shorter, the better. cause bearhunter and i hunt in simillar country i threw my opion out there for that reason. i get cold faster now, so i do more stalking than tree stand sitting. just my peabrain 2 cents worth.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:18 pm

tman wrote: i don't hunt from a jeep or a helicopter. i don't do the canned hunt thing. for me, a 20" barreled lever works. it gets to my shoulder quick. as i get older, the lighter and shorter, the better. cause bearhunter and i hunt in simillar country i threw my opion out there for that reason. i get cold faster now, so i do more stalking than tree stand sitting. just my peabrain 2 cents worth.

No canned hunts or jumpin' out of choppers here either, and the roads are usually a long way from the game... A 20" carbine would be about minimum length for me. The shorter ones just don't swing right in my hands. OTOH, my '86 Extra Light has its 22" barrel -- uncut -- and it's just about Perfect.

BTW, A 405-gr. bullet at 1900 fps ain't exactly slow...

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:25 am

Buck Elliott wrote:
tman wrote: i don't hunt from a jeep or a helicopter. i don't do the canned hunt thing. for me, a 20" barreled lever works. it gets to my shoulder quick. as i get older, the lighter and shorter, the better. cause bearhunter and i hunt in simillar country i threw my opion out there for that reason. i get cold faster now, so i do more stalking than tree stand sitting. just my peabrain 2 cents worth.
No canned hunts or jumpin' out of choppers here either, and the roads are usually a long way from the game... A 20" carbine would be about minimum length for me. The shorter ones just don't swing right in my hands. OTOH, my '86 Extra Light has its 22" barrel -- uncut -- and it's just about Perfect.

BTW, A 405-gr. bullet at 1900 fps ain't exactly slow...

yea, its more important how the gun fits the individual as opposed to some minor gains or losses of FPS. if you can't get it on target, you are just wasting powder and lead.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:27 am

Well,... seems like this is heading down the same old road again!!

So ,.... I'll just add my nickles worth.

If you take two 405 grn slugs, loaded at the same speed, from a 45/70 or a 444 ,... the only difference I am aware of (please correct me if I am wrong) would be better sectional density/penetration from the 444.

I personally carry on horse back, and my 22" barrel was FAR MORE uncomfortable to deal with than the 16.5" I cut her down to. And the balance greatly improved for me!!

No, I am not interested in crawling/hunting/shooting through thick brush to put meat in my belly,... but, I wouldn't think twice about defending my butt from a bear (where I pack in), that was coming from thick brush.

FWIW,
76/444

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:21 am

76/444 wrote:Actually,... most 444 seem to be micro groove barrels which demand the use of a .432 diameter bullet. At least that is what I will be casting. I believe the 45/70 uses a .457 diameter bullet. Anyone want to claim "mine is bigger than yours" bragging rights,... have at it. But your only bragging on .025 of an inch difference.

I don't know of any 525 gr Piledrivers for the 444.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:14 pm

NonPCnraRN wrote:
76/444 wrote:Actually,... most 444 seem to be micro groove barrels which demand the use of a .432 diameter bullet. At least that is what I will be casting. I believe the 45/70 uses a .457 diameter bullet. Anyone want to claim "mine is bigger than yours" bragging rights,... have at it. But your only bragging on .025 of an inch difference.
I don't know of any 525 gr Piledrivers for the 444.

Duuuuuuh, geeeeeee,.... and I don't know of any 750grn. piledrivers in 45/70!!

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:55 pm

think the bottom line is how dead is dead.I shoot the 45/70,444 and my 375 win.I like all 3 but I am a gun nut which I thought all of us here are??.
everytime the 45/70-444 comes up I just shake my head.the truth is there isn't anything here in texas you can't kill with a 30/30 if you can shoot.
now flame this

.
pete

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:44 pm

"...now flame this

"

I like

rjroberts · Post by **rjroberts** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:34 am

nemhed wrote:What I got a kick out of was the carbine length pistol in 45-70 that I briefly owned a couple of years ago! No joke, I had a T/C Contender with a 12" 45-70 barrel, that I got on trade. I fired about 3 rounds out of that configuration and did some more trading!

How about the Magnum Research BFR revolver in .45-70? But, I saw something one time that really took it: a DERRINGER (forgot the mfr.) in .45-70. I wanted to buy that just for novelty. No way would I be dumb enough to shoot it.

To toss another possibility to the original question, it is possible that the shorter barrel might be more accurate because of barrel resonance or, a lesser amount than the longer one.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:59 am

I thought this thread was about which Marlin 95 configuration was preferable for the stated uses.

I'd still go with the guide version.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:50 pm

There is nothing the 444 can do that a 45-70 cant, but there is a lot the 45-70 can do that the 444 cant, and a lot the 444 can do that I wouldnt waste my time doing with a 45-70.

As to the 444 shooting flatter, Ive seen that argument, and seen it disproved thoroughly over and over. Its a myth.

Regarding the .457 45-70 bullet, most will start at .458 and go up from there, most cast bullets are .460. The .457 dia is meant for paper patching.

Now, to the question, I have both rifles, and here is my take. For the heavier bullets like my 560gr There is no need for the longer barrel, the shorter barrel gets all the velocity that bullet needs within its useable range, bit a nice flat shooting 300gr gets a lot fo help from the longer barrel.

Bubba w/a 45/70 · Post by **Bubba w/a 45/70** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:40 am

If you haven't shot either style yet, that is the first thing that I'd recommend for yourself (the OP).

Getting something that is comfortable for yourself is the best thing that you can do for hunting.

I have the fun of being able to choose between the standard and my SBDB: a 16" "personalized" guide gun in 45/70 that started life as a standard. The SBDB really does handle much more quickly, but the standard 1895 has it when the overall hunting package is considered.

Just in case you needed a picture:

I don't have the reddot on it anymore, as that didn't work very well in the field with me. Otherwise, it works very well for everything else, just like it's bigger brother.

maddog · Post by **maddog** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:47 am

I have a guide gun. I've used it on bears, hogs, and took it to Africa for plains game in 2008. The big difference, I see, between it and the standard model, is the pistol vs. straight grip. With extremely stout loads, the pistol grip is easier to control, than the straight grip, for optimum accuracy. That being said, I've killed critters successfully out to 200 yds. with the guide gun. It is also extremely easy to put into action in brush or an enclosed blind. JMHO.

maddog