Why does Dog Child have a Japanese sword?Dog Child, a North West Mounted Police scout, and his wife, members of the Blackfoot Nation, Gleichen, Alberta, ca. 1890. Photographer: Trueman and Caple Photo, Vancouver, British Columbia. Silver gelatin print. National Archives of Canada
Can anyone explain this oddity?
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Can anyone explain this oddity?
The photo is
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Well doing a little google mapping, it's a pretty straight shot from Japan to Vancouver, Seattle, etc. Since Gleichen appears to be outside of Calgary perhaps some enterprising trader from Japan made his way to the NW Coast or from the NW Coast to Japan and back with it.
Add in some horse trading of one sort or another and I suppose I can see where a guy a few hundred miles inland could wind up with it. Maybe even confiscated from an illegal gambling joint since he's part of the NWMP?
Add in some horse trading of one sort or another and I suppose I can see where a guy a few hundred miles inland could wind up with it. Maybe even confiscated from an illegal gambling joint since he's part of the NWMP?
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-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
The Japanese were not known for trading in their swords, even of munitions quality, because the design was more traditional in their rather limited sphere. Also, they had had a big surrender of swords (which means what since there are still some 800 year old blades extent?). I consider it an oddity not easily explained by a flippant response. Surely some Canadian knows.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
The story would be interesting. danny
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Not trying to be flippant, just thinking through the options.
AFA not trading in swords, it would not surprise me to find out someone in Japan or a Japanese traveler trying to get back home was desperate enough to part with a prized possession.
AFA not trading in swords, it would not surprise me to find out someone in Japan or a Japanese traveler trying to get back home was desperate enough to part with a prized possession.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Are you certain it's Japanese? There are cavalry pieces that have that blade shape, and the pommel may have been altered. The grip looks western to me also, but it may be my eyesight.
Grizz
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Can't help you Hobie but that is a very interesting picture, thanks for posting
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Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
The sword scabbard appears to be a metal cavalry style. danny
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Hobie, that don't look all that Jap to me but what the heck do I know
Do Japanese swords have a guard like that??
Nath.
Do Japanese swords have a guard like that??
Nath.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
To me, it doesn't look like it could take the blade he's holding.BigSky56 wrote:The sword scabbard appears to be a metal cavalry style. danny
Perhaps these people could help:
http://www.japaneseswordsocietyofcanada.org/
Last edited by Bruce Scott on Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
That sword is definitely a Japanese katana. Of that I have no doubt. It brings to mind the movie "The Last Samurai" with Tom Cruse. Knowing the Japanese's interest in western military equipment and tactics at the end of the civil war, I wonder if there wasn't some interaction between military officers, U.S. or Canadian and Dog Child ended up with a katana. First time I've even heard of such a thing, let alone a picture. Cool, Hobie.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Too much Fire Water for got um stick bow
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Hobie, the scabbard tells more than the sword, IMHO. It appears to be a steel military scabbard as opposed to a traditional Japanese sheath. It seems to be reinforced with at least three possibly four metal bands around it, along with the tip which protects the scabbard if it gets dragged a little on the ground. What do you think?
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
I asked the Japanese Consulate if they could provide info. This is what I got"
In approximately 1899 the Emporer General of Japan accompanied an expedition to Alberta to meet with the Chief Marshal of the Calgary Mounted Unit. The primary goal of the visit was to set-up a sugar and honey exchange for Japanese herbs and the education and roots to start Japanese gardens with plants that are native to a similar elevation and climate as that in the area of Alberta. This gave way to an open trade agreement with Japan has lasted over a century. The Alberta/Japan Twinned Municipalities was formed. Cities in each Country were sistered based on similarities and share holidays, traditions and cultural events.
Not a direct answer, but I guess Dog Child was either a guest at one of these expeditions or the sword came from one of those and ended up with him indirectly.
In approximately 1899 the Emporer General of Japan accompanied an expedition to Alberta to meet with the Chief Marshal of the Calgary Mounted Unit. The primary goal of the visit was to set-up a sugar and honey exchange for Japanese herbs and the education and roots to start Japanese gardens with plants that are native to a similar elevation and climate as that in the area of Alberta. This gave way to an open trade agreement with Japan has lasted over a century. The Alberta/Japan Twinned Municipalities was formed. Cities in each Country were sistered based on similarities and share holidays, traditions and cultural events.
Not a direct answer, but I guess Dog Child was either a guest at one of these expeditions or the sword came from one of those and ended up with him indirectly.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Definitely not an American sword. All U.S. swords had finger/hand guards, this one does not have one. Scabbard does appear to be more European than Oriental though.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
"I asked the Japanese Consulate if they could provide info. This is what I got""
Good golly man you know the Japanese Consulate ?
I feel pridefull when I know my kids teachers !
Gosh I love this place.
Good golly man you know the Japanese Consulate ?
I feel pridefull when I know my kids teachers !
Gosh I love this place.
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
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Jeff Cooper
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Maybe the Charles Bronson western with the samurai was based on a true story?? I think it was called "Red Sun" or something like that.
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Not true here is the Marine Officer Mameluke Sword.Gun Smith wrote:Definitely not an American sword. All U.S. swords had finger/hand guards, this one does not have one. Scabbard does appear to be more European than Oriental though.
But I do agree not an American blade. I go with it being a Katana.
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
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GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Nath you guys have me wondering if we're looking at the same photo. That's a long grip from the tsuba up past his wrist. Maybe I should blow up that portion...Nath wrote:Hobie, that don't look all that Jap to me but what the heck do I know
Do Japanese swords have a guard like that??
Nath.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Now that is interesting.86er wrote:I asked the Japanese Consulate if they could provide info. This is what I got"
In approximately 1899 the Emporer General of Japan accompanied an expedition to Alberta to meet with the Chief Marshal of the Calgary Mounted Unit. The primary goal of the visit was to set-up a sugar and honey exchange for Japanese herbs and the education and roots to start Japanese gardens with plants that are native to a similar elevation and climate as that in the area of Alberta. This gave way to an open trade agreement with Japan has lasted over a century. The Alberta/Japan Twinned Municipalities was formed. Cities in each Country were sistered based on similarities and share holidays, traditions and cultural events.
Not a direct answer, but I guess Dog Child was either a guest at one of these expeditions or the sword came from one of those and ended up with him indirectly.
BTW, the Consulate wouldn't answer/return my calls. You must have some pull there...
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Maybe that outfit has some historical records and photos:86er wrote:...The Alberta/Japan Twinned Municipalities was formed. .
http://www.ajtma.com/about.php
Bruce
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
JReed wrote:Not true here is the Marine Officer Mameluke Sword.Gun Smith wrote:Definitely not an American sword. All U.S. swords had finger/hand guards, this one does not have one. Scabbard does appear to be more European than Oriental though.
But I do agree not an American blade. I go with it being a Katana.
The Mameluke is not a sword of western design (and you know that )
I was thinking that the photo was a cavalry saber that had the guard removed, but that grip IS awfully long.
Last edited by FWiedner on Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
I was referring to this comment "All U.S. swords had finger/hand guards," The blade design is American it is the grip/hilt that is not. Either way it was in use by the Marine Officer Corps around the time in question which makes that statement false.FWiedner wrote:JReed wrote:Not true here is the Marine Officer Mameluke Sword.Gun Smith wrote:Definitely not an American sword. All U.S. swords had finger/hand guards, this one does not have one. Scabbard does appear to be more European than Oriental though.
But I do agree not an American blade. I go with it being a Katana.
The Mameluke is not a sword of western design (and you know that )
I was thinking that maybe it was an old cavalry saber that had the guard removed.
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
During that period, Japan and Russia both, had exploration parties in the Pacific Northwest. Trading with the Natives would be a given.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
I had a WWII Japanese military katana at one time in military furniture and the saya/scabbard was in appearance a lot like the one shown. I still have one and the tsuka/handle is in military furniture, but the saya is leather wrapped with wooden core.
Old Law Dawg
Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
From what I've read, fur traders were notorious for acquiring exotic items in the course of their travels. I would imagine that he got it in some sort of trade, probably with very little fanfare. It is a super interesting photo though. Thanks for posting it.
bogie
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Dog Child count coup on samurai; top-knot not worth taking. Settled for katana...
Seriously, another great old image. Thank you, Hobie.
Seriously, another great old image. Thank you, Hobie.
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
+1 This place never ceases to amaze me!Bullard4075 wrote:"I asked the Japanese Consulate if they could provide info. This is what I got""
Good golly man you know the Japanese Consulate ?
I feel pridefull when I know my kids teachers !
Gosh I love this place.
- El Chivo
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
yes, but if this photo was taken in 1890 that kills that.In approximately 1899
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
The sword, I'm sure is Japanese and I have seen Japanese scabbards just like one that too.
To add to the confusion, does Dog Child have a Remington revolver ????
To add to the confusion, does Dog Child have a Remington revolver ????
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
I received these responses from The Japanese Sword Society of Canada:Bruce Scott wrote: Perhaps these people could help:
http://www.japaneseswordsocietyofcanada.org/
"Greetings Bruce.
Yes this is a photo that has been widely circulated and published widely as well.----The most applicable explanation is that at that time a contingent of Japanese emissaries were traveling thru out the US and Canada observing our customs . for this photo the most likely explanation was that it was loaned to him for this specific photo by one of the visiting Samurai.---------Fred"
"Hi Bruce
I just thought I would comment further-----If you look closer at the photo. you will see that the scabbard or saya has double Hangers indicating that this sword is a tachi and further that it is a navy saya of 1934 vintage ??? which leaves one to ask whether this photo indeed was photographed in 1890. I also have grave doubts about the gun as well it also was probably loaned for this photo. the holster also looks like a 1930 model made for film work and that's another possible explanation for the sword it could be a film prop.--------Fred"
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Terminology aside, that is definitely a 2-handed Japanese sword.
The holster is also correct to the period, (1890) and looks to have been mildy "decorated" after Indian fashion.
Silver-gelatin prints went by the wayside LONG before the 1930s.
The holster is also correct to the period, (1890) and looks to have been mildy "decorated" after Indian fashion.
Silver-gelatin prints went by the wayside LONG before the 1930s.
Regards
Buck
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
There is the possibility that he came into possession of the sword after the former owner had "no further use for it".
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Re: Can anyone explain this oddity?
Never mind the sword.
That looks like a Remington 1875 in the holster. Grip's to long for a SAA.
Well heeled fellow for sure!
jb
That looks like a Remington 1875 in the holster. Grip's to long for a SAA.
Well heeled fellow for sure!
jb
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