Loose Dogs

[76/444]

I agree with Hobie.I don't know anyone who gets their jollies from shooting non threatening dogs. My neighbor (about 6 miles away) has brought home some of my earlier dogs (from years ago) who strayed. He has the state lease out my back pasture gate with $25,000+ bull calf stock out there,... so it's not like he hasn't anything to lose with stray dogs.

I had a male Anatolian stud that refused to stay home, many years ago. I fought with that dog for years about straying. I don't believe in chaining or fencing in a dog,... I think it is meaner than killing them, so I did.

Here in Az. ,.... dogs killing stock are liable for TRIPLE DAMAGES. Meaning, the owner of a dog just standing over a $25,000 bull calf, dead from bloat, and half eaten by coyotes could be liable for $75,000. Not a good way to start the day in my book!

[rangerider7]

It was back in the fifties when my uncle acted the way he did. He should have handled it a different way but the sheriff said they must be caught in the act. He was not willing to loose another animal. I don't shoot dogs unless I observe them killing stock or showing aggression toward me or my family while on my property. Common sense will tell you what action, within the law, you should take in most situations. Trespassing today is much more of a problem than it was many years ago. Be careful, neighbors don't get to know each other as well as they use to and are much less tolerable of strangers, two or four legged. Asking permission when in doubt is the best policy.

[FWiedner]

When I was a boy, my step-dad gave us instructions that if stray dogs were doing anything more than passing straight through, put 'em down. Same with cats.

Deliberate or mouthy trespassing hunters were a whole other genre of comedy involving firearms and law-enforcement. The hilarious part was when they said they had "rights".

More recently, but still a while back, I hunted a lease out in Palo Pinto county, where the owner insisted as a condition of maintaining the lease that any stray seen on the lease be shot, and then let him know about that and any other game taken at the end of the day.

If an owner doesn't care enough to control or stay with with his animal, oh well. Cry me a river.

[Doc Hudson]

I don't believe in chaining or fencing in a dog,... I think it is meaner than killing them.

There my friend we are in deep fundamental disagreement.

Look at it this way. At best a dog has the intelligence of
a small child.

Would you allow your small child to roam unsupervised? I doubt it.

You can teach a kid to "Stop, Look, Listen, then Look Again" before crossing a road. Even so a kid will still sometimes dash into a road heedless of traffic. You can't teach dogs to "Stop, Look, and Listen."

If for no other reason dogs should be confined for their own safety. Not only are they in danger of being hit by cars, they are in danger of being stolen (I've had it happen), or if they growl at the wrong person in the wrong place they will get shot.

For the sake of your dogs and your good relations with your nabers, I ask you to reconsider your position.

[76/444]

I don't believe in chaining or fencing in a dog,... I think it is meaner than killing them.

There my friend we are in deep fundamental disagreement.

Look at it this way. At best a dog has the intelligence of
a small child.

Would you allow your small child to roam unsupervised? I doubt it.

You can teach a kid to "Stop, Look, Listen, then Look Again" before crossing a road. Even so a kid will still sometimes dash into a road heedless of traffic. You can't teach dogs to "Stop, Look, and Listen."

If for no other reason dogs should be confined for their own safety. Not only are they in danger of being hit by cars, they are in danger of being stolen (I've had it happen), or if they growl at the wrong person in the wrong place they will get shot.

For the sake of your dogs and your good relations with your nabers, I ask you to reconsider your position.

Hey Doc,..... disagree all you wish. I have had dogs all my life, and even raised dogs for a living at one time. I have probably lived with a hundred dogs on and off in my life and only 2 or 3 could not learn to stop straying. So, I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you.

[Wes]

44shooter, I don't think you understand what I meant by 'winter'. Deer, elk, and antelope around here winter at 6-8000' elevation. Right now I've been chopping waterholes for livestock for a couple weeks. You can drive a Polaris Ranger across my stock ponds. Cattle will be on feed soon and I won't quit feeding until mid May.
Being run through the snow and having to survive tempatures that'll hit -40 w/o windchill takes it out of them. Typically they gravitate to the slopes that are windblown to get down to the feed easier than digging through crusty snow. Standing in wind when it's below zero will melt the fat right off them.
Winter starts early here and greenup won't hit until maybe mid May. It doesn't always have anything to do with too many critters, not enough feed. It has to do with typically severe winters more than anything. We have laws here about harrassing livestock on winter range (for people too) for the reason that it DOES increase winterkill. People in different climates don't understand the concept of winterkill apparently.
Another thing to consider is that dogs can stay on top of the snow a lot better than cloven hoofed animals who break through and go deeper. Not a fair race. Dogs can and do win these chases. I've seen them run a herd of antelope into a snowdrift and chew up a bunch of them. Fences catch a lot of deer and antelope when being chased by dogs as well. Elk too.

[Buck Elliott]

The rapidity with which "good" dogs can go "feral" (as part of a pack) is a true wonder of the World.

I long-ago lost track of the number of dogs I've shot, while they were in the act of harassing livestock or game animals. Until just recently, almost no-one ever showed up to complain about their missing pooches. It's become a different world, lately.

[76/444]

Now (thanks to the bear hunters who pack the DNR meetings) WV has a law that since dogs can't read, when they get on your land the hunter has a LEGAL RIGHT to come on your land to get his dogs. quote]

They better hurry or the dogs won't be found.

Rob

It's statements like that that really pee me off. As a long time houndsman I'll tell you flat out thare is no dang reason for me not to be able to go get my dog. Same applies for following game that was wounded on another property. I'll also tell you that shooting a dog for running game is as lame a reason as I've ever heard. The dog ain't hurting a thing and you just want to be a butt and act like you are king of whatever small part of god's green earth you happen to have title too. Some people think that because they have title to an acre of dirt they can control what happens in the whole darn county. We run into this all the time around here where city folk by a small acreage and then get mad when country life happens to continue around em. You don't like it get the laws changed or put up a better fence. You shoot my dog for doing what it's trained for and not hurting a dang thing and you'll be writing me a big fat check. If you're able.

LK

Kilkenny, you confuse me. You say there is "no dang reason for me not to be able to go get my dog" ,... do you really believe that? Are you that blind to the laws on personal property? Do you know what Nation you live in?

Now, I am sure if "The dog ain't hurting a thing",... there would be no reason for shooting it. But, if it just looks sideways at any stock in my county, it will more than likely be rotting in a wash before the sun sets.

Now, you can play the bigot card and call anyone who is contrary to your hunting habits a "city folk",... but I have never lived in a city in all my life and I am as country as country can be and I promise you this, I control every square inch of land and protect every dang critter I have paid my hard earned money for.

Now, in my state there is no law that says I have to put up a fence able to keep stray or hunting dogs out. I don't know where you live,.... and, I will take a wild guess you don't have such a law either.

Now , if " bad country habits" keep off private property, I don't see most folks giving a dang what goes on in the rest on the county. If a dog is trained to follow commands, and then let it come on someone's place uninvited, someone is either a lousy dog trainer, looking for trouble, or think that hunting allows them to claim the whole dang county as their private hunting ground.

Now, I can't speak for everyone in my county, but , I feel pretty confident in relating to you that if anyone were to trespass on most of the folk's little piece of God's green earth who I know, with attitude and threats, they could find themselves in a wash next to their dog.

We have a RANCHER'S STATE here in Arizona and we don't put up with stray dogs or disrespecting trespassers. From one country boy to another,...you may want to think about that if you're ever hunt'n down my way in the future.

[Malamute]

In the interest of the general peace and civility of the neighborhood, I nominate this thread be locked. I doubt anyone is going to change anyone elses mind about the subject at hand, and it seems to inflame emotions. I've decided not to further fan the flames, tho not everyone has that desire.


If we're going to get bent out of shape, lets do it about something that's really important, like the ongoing 30-30 vs 32 win spl controversy, or that little difference of opinion over whether round barrels or octagon are more acurrate. I'd hate to alienate anyone that may be backing me up on these issues by talking about dogs.

[Sixgun]

I doubt anyone is going to change anyone elses mind about the subject at hand, and it seems to inflame emotions.

Hey Malmute,
This is pretty exciting stuff here. I think its good we can all voice our opinions about some of the only things that matter in life, dogs and guns

I guess we can liken good dogs vs. bad dogs like we can to good people vs. bad people--some just need to catch the sixgun slug---thats all, plain and simple. Some people just have their own opinion on what constitutes "bad" or "good".

Let the film roll and enjoy the movie -------------------------Sixgun

[cowboykell]

I shoot dogs, cats, and fawns...and try like heck to run squirrels down on the highway.

[Doc Hudson]

We have a RANCHER'S STATE here in Arizona and we don't put up with stray dogs or disrespecting trespassers.

No offense intended, but the way Arizona is being invaded by California Liberals, Northeastern Liberals, and illegal aliens, I would not make book on how long your statement will remain true.

You know how thosed blank-dashed dirty-old-nevermind Liberals find some place they like, move there and immediately try to make it over into a mirror image of the sinkhole they left. Good luck holding on to a "RANCHER'S STATE."

[L_Kilkenny]

I'll take on much of the responsibility for sending this thread sideways. I had no intention of turning it into a hound hunting vs. land owners rights thread. For that I am sorry. Hound hunters are on the defensive all over the country but it's not from good folk like you all but from anti-hunters and city folk. I'll defend the rights of hunters till I die. For the record: Iowa has the law that states I can go get my hounds "without" the permission of the land owner. I can also retrieve game without permission. That does not mean that we just willy-nilly go everywhere we want. We hunt on land we have permission on and if the dogs get somewhere they aren't suppose to be we go get em. Usually with the blessings of the land owner. Like stated, we have more issues with people who buy a 4 acre plot, move from the city and then call the sheriff every time we turn loose on adjacent property because they don't like us hunting. The sheriff deputies that show up are our friends (not literally but figuratively). We have also had to call the sheriff for people catching our dogs and locking them up so we can't find em. Good thing all of the idiots have been dumb enough to not be able to figure out what the heck the tracking collars we run actually do. Real easy to prove someone has your dog when you can break out the tracking system and point it right at their garage.

I also think much of the issue has to do with location. Iowa vs. Texas vs WV etc etc and a BIG lack of understanding about hound hunting. Even by other hunters.

Like I said, dogs chasing stock need shot. Maybe not as a first alternative but dang close. Vicious dogs need shot (Ask me about the time I was attacked by 3 red healers sometime, not fun). Most around my local will find out, or already know, who owns the problem dog(s) and will resolve it with the owner, the local authorities and then with a gun. Deer chases are a different matter since I have a lack of experience with that issue.

Again, I didn't mean to offend but being under attack for the last 3 decades wears thin. My apologies.

LK

[Malamute]

"...No offense intended, but the way Arizona is being invaded by California Liberals,..."


When I lived in Az 20 years ago, we called it "Californicating" it. We saw the same phnomenon back then, many would come and see the country and exclaim how great it was, and how much better it was than where they came from, then go about trying to make just like " back home". Never quite understood that.



"I'll take on much of the responsibility for sending this thread sideways. I had no intention of turning it into a hound hunting vs. land owners rights thread...."

Well, thanks for saying what's on your mind. Often, most of us get focussed on our own version of life and dont know how it is for someone else, and don't take the time to tell enough to get a good picture of what someone else is really thinking. The problems you have there are foreign to many of us in other places. Our concerns may not be problems where you or someone else is. Game being chased and killed is a problem in many places. I've seen peoples pet dogs out looking for antelope fawns, and seen dead fawns where they were roaming around looking. This was within sight of the peoples houses. Just sayin, it does happen. I'd be upset if folks tried to steal my dogs, or kill them for no good reason, but they are rarely out without supervision, they have a nice yard fenced in for them, and stay in the house when I do. The few times they went and "visited" the neighbors, nobody got too excited, and they didnt cause any mischief.

[rangerider7]

This was a good thread. Discussing problems before they happen or even after is almost always a learning experience. Like my dad always said "you learn more by reading and listening than you do by talking."

[44shooter]

I have to say I got a bit peeved last night too. I admit that know little about about western life although I have been around cows and dogs quite a bit. From some of the posts I have read, some of us do not understand hunting with hounds, or the very nature of hounds. I will let that go without further comment unless someone wishes me to explain. The issue of hounds is slightly off topic of the original post anyway.

Anyway I realize dogs can cause problems and sometimes need to be killed. I have never killed a dog, but my Dad had killed many. I have run them out of the yard by shooting them with an airgun or 22 shotshells to discourage them from hanging around my own dogs and eating their food. All I have to say is, think before you shoot. If you need to shoot, shoot well and be quiet about it. A dog coming home with extra holes in it has a way of invoking strong emotions in its owner. I would imagine seeing stock disembowelled for fun would too. Before you shoot someone's pride and joy remember that cows make bigger targets than dogs.

Also there are apparently cultural differences in play here. In the west attitudes about livestock are probably stronger as it is many people's livelihood. Here having cows, sheep or goats is usually a side gig to crop farming, or having hog or poultry houses. Here properties usually are not that big and you cannot expect a dog turned out to hunt to stay within the permitted land. People have been successfully procescuted for shooting hunting dogs on their own land.

[765x53]

Everyone has a right to defend his livestock. On the other hand, harmless, inadvertent trespass is neither a capital crime nor an excuse for destroying another man's property. In that case the shooter is the one liable for property damage.

[clc79092]

Even small dogs get shot sometimes. My brother has a bunch of rat terriers and they are killing little fiends. They work as a group and kill every stray cat that comes around his property. They even killed his cat which the dogs grew up around. He is proud of them. I no longer have a dog but I do have a cat and when his dogs cornered my cat on my porch I killed one and chased the others with 22 lr rounds all the way to our mutual property line. I told him I will kill them any time I see them on my property. He refuses to pen them or tie them up or fence his prperty. I will kill any dog or stray cat on my property, period. And if the owner doesn't like it I dont care.

[OJ]

Size matters - no matter what you've heard-







There should be no loose dogs and the real culprit is the dog's owner - that's the one who should be be shot.

We owe our canine partners this - most of them are more noble than their owners who treat them like that.

[Doc Hudson]

Size matters - no matter what you've heard-


There should be no loose dogs and the real culprit is the dog's owner - that's the one who should be be shot.

We owe our canine partners this - most of them are more noble than their owners who treat them like that.

A man after my own heart!

[Wes]

Holy cow that's a big pooch!

As far as the law around here, if the dog is on your property, he's fair game. You won't be prosecuted for it. People have tried.
As far as cows making a bigger target. People have done that, and did get prosecuted.
I do think it's a different world east of the Mississippi.
I'd also like to point out that nothing was said about just shooting any dog on sight. Dogs travel and as was said, can't read No Trespassing signs. Most ranchers just weed out the problem dogs as they see them.
We are having to deal with a different sort of people here now. People don't respect property boundaries unless it's posted on every darn fence post.
I had a guy walking his dog all over the ranch this summer. The first time or two I thought he was just somebody visiting a friend or relative for a few days and I said nothing. Finally I figured out he was a new neighbor and I thought I'd better let him know just where he was. I politely told him he was on private property and that we'd shortly have a herd of cows in the field he was walking in which wouldn't be good with his dog in tow. Apparently this really ticked him off. He told me flat out that he didn't see any posted signs as he crawled through the barb wire fence every day and that basically I could stick it.
Calmly as I could I said I'd just go ahead and sit in his living room and watch T.V. and drinik his beer any time I felt like it because HE didn't have it posted either. This logic escaped him.
Finally I did have to get rude and threaten him with the sheriff, etc. Politeness didn't work. Why could he not see that a five wire barbwire fence is a property boundary? He knew for a fact that it was not his own.
I actually watched another new neighbor (5 or 6 years ago) standing with his arms propped on my corner brace watching his dogs chase my brothers sheep all over the sage brush pasture next to his 3 acres and house. He didn't notice me at the other end of the pasture watching him. He made no effort to call the dogs off for 10 minutes or so. This changed abruptly when I pulled up where he could see me and took my 300 Savage out the gun rack and aimed it at his dogs. Then and only then did he try and get them back. I didn't shoot them that time, but it wasn't 3 weeks later they were back at it and they didn't survive the incident. Of course his dogs couldn't hurt a flea and were only having fun (according to him). When he came to see the bodies and one of them had look at the blood and wool in their teeth he was convinced.
People like these (and many others like them) are the basic problem. I agree. But the dogs themselves doing the damage are all I can control. Shooting the owners isn't an option.

[Poohgyrr]

Yes, too many people have no respect for others. That is when we are forced to go back to the old fact that physical force does indeed solve problems.

And Lulu, our ankle biter Lhasa Apso, says "Hey! It's the size of the fight in the dog! Now throw my ball so I can fetch it!"

[765x53]

Regardless of the Mississippi, criminal assault remains the same.

Let's put this in perspective. If I turn into your driveway by mistake you do-not automatically have the right to kill me or to shoot up my vehicle.

If I am hunting on your neighbor's property and my beagle chases a rabbit across the corner of your back pasture without causing damage, you do-not automatically have the right to kill it.

If you do, you or your insurance company will compensate me for my property loss.

If I can prosecute I will. If I win, you will forfeit your right to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

That is a high price to pay for the momentary thrill of feeling like John Wayne.
Remember, most of the actions that thrill us in his westerns are and always were felonies.

Pulling a trigger is always serious business requiring rational forethought.

[pharmseller]

Regardless of the Mississippi, criminal assault remains the same.

Let's put this in perspective. If I turn into your driveway by mistake you do-not automatically have the right to kill me or to shoot up my vehicle.

If I am hunting on your neighbor's property and my beagle chases a rabbit across the corner of your back pasture without causing damage, you do-not automatically have the right to kill it.

If you do, you or your insurance company will compensate me for my property loss.

If I can prosecute I will. If I win, you will forfeit your right to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

That is a high price to pay for the momentary thrill of feeling like John Wayne.
Remember, most of the actions that thrill us in his westerns are and always were felonies.

Pulling a trigger is always serious business requiring rational forethought.

Wow!
When you read the posts on this thread did you really think anyone would condone shooting you for pulling into the wrong driveway by mistake?
Really?
Then you go all insurance and lawyer on us.
Then you insult the Duke.
Go make a call on your Bluetooth while driving in your hybrid to the fern bar to talk about your feelings.
You, sir, are no levergunner.

P

[44shooter]

Wes, I really don't think we disagree much on this issue. We both think that killing a dog that is a legitimate and ongoing threat to property is justified. We both agree that people should try to respect others' property whether it is dogs, livestock, or land.

However, there are posts on this thread that are saying things like any dog within their property lines is dead, trespessars lying in ditches, etc. Seriously? Does that mean if the electric fence down the road shorts out and a Hereford walks in my yard, I can kill it? After all it is running loose, unattended, and not trained to respond to commands If a foxhound stays close enough to respond to verbal commands, he needs to be shot by his owner!

[76/444]

Well,... talk is cheap gentlemen. And those on a adrenalin high and whistling in the wind will always exaggerate to make their point seem valid.

It has been well over 15 years. But, I may be able to find the pics, if I look hard.

My lady has been raising high quality show milking goats for about thirty years, when she moved to Az. She cut down her heard to a few dozen of just her Grand Champions.

We lived in a remote section of a little town called Cave creek Az,... on a dirt road heading out towards the Tonto National Forest.

About 4 or 5 miles up the wash from our place, were folks living even more remotely. They had a wolf hybrid and a lab wolf cross.

One day they came down the wash and got into the goat pen. The ripped out throats, ate out rear ends and ripped open bellies on 75% of the stock.

There was a lot of rock around from the wash, and I lost their trail after a mile or so.

About a week later they came back and finished the job except for two animals. This time only one made it home. After taking pics and documenting everything we took the carcass up the dirt road and confronted the owners. They tried to hide the second dog, but I got to it and confirmed it was the second animal due to all the blood on it.

My lady explained that the total damages was around $6,000 and that since Az. has a triple dog damages law she wanted $18,000 or we were going take all the pics and dog carcass to the sheriff and start prosecution proceedings. They made one phone call to their lawyer while we waited and then asked if she would accept payments over the next few months. She said yes, and, they never missed a payment, and paid the full $18,000.

Anyone can sit on the internet and make a whole bunch of claims about shoulda-woulda-coulda,.... but I'm telling you fact! You let your dog, hound or not, run in Az. and they cause damage, your azz belongs to the person you damaged,.... PERIOD!!

[76/444]

Wes, I really don't think we disagree much on this issue. We both think that killing a dog that is a legitimate and ongoing threat to property is justified. We both agree that people should try to respect others' property whether it is dogs, livestock, or land.

However, there are posts on this thread that are saying things like any dog within their property lines is dead, trespessars lying in ditches, etc. Seriously? Does that mean if the electric fence down the road shorts out and a Hereford walks in my yard, I can kill it? After all it is running loose, unattended, and not trained to respond to commands If a foxhound stays close enough to respond to verbal commands, he needs to be shot by his owner!

44,... the remark on winding up in a wash next to your dog,.... was in response to the comment about "writing a big fat check for killing my dog "IF YOU ARE ABLE".

I can only speak for a few folks I know around my part of the desert. But, I am very confident in stating that anyone coming on private property around here, disrespecting and threatening bodily harm will be met with like attitude. It is one thing to quote a post ,... it is another thing to quote it in proper context!

[Doc Hudson]

You let your dog, hound or not, run in Az. and they cause damage, your azz belongs to the person you damaged,.... PERIOD!!

Which is exactly as it should be and the best possible argument for keeping your dogs penned or in the house when not under direct control.

[76/444]

Agreed, Doc.

[BigSky56]

I guess most people forget that there is different laws west of the mid-west states concerning dogs running loose whether they are hunting hounds, pets or feral and every county in each western state has a leash law which means that you have to have a dog under physical/verbal control or it can be shot on sight wolfing game/stock on public land and anytime on private land thats why the houndsmen out here use tracking collars and if a stockman sees one that dog generally gets a pass unless its chasing stock. Also out west we have open range laws which means I dont have to fence my stock in the other person has to fence them out of his property. Back east you guys have different laws than we do concerning dogs and getting upset about apply Mt/Wyo law in the east is a non issue. Life is tough on the frontier. danny

[76/444]

FWIW&FYI,...Here in Az. Rancher country,.... stock working dogs are exempt from leash laws.

[Paladin]

Any, any dog(s) found running animals needs dropped right there. We have a huge problem in the county with people, for what ever reason, not wanting their dogs anymore and they take them out into the county and dump'em. The dogs in that situation can't help it, they're just trying to survive. It's the people that need a lesson.

+1
As a LEO I have shot way too may dogs when the owner needed the punishment.

[20cows]

Regardless of the Mississippi, criminal assault remains the same.

...

If I am hunting on your neighbor's property and my beagle chases a rabbit across the corner of your back pasture without causing damage, you do-not automatically have the right to kill it.

If you do, you or your insurance company will compensate me for my property loss.

If I can prosecute I will. If I win, you will forfeit your right to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

Killing a dog is distruction of property (at most). Criminal assault is harming a person.

I think we're getting a little carried away here.

[Wes]

I didn't intend for this to sound like the wanton Wyoming dog massacre. Sorry.
By the way Wyoming is a 'fence out' state with open range laws as was stated by my Montana neighbor here.
I talked to one of the owners of the now deceased dogs. He wanted to know if I'd seen his dog. Told him the how and why of it and he was fine with it. He said they'd been having trouble keeping him home and out of the livestock. He even offered to help fix the fences.
I suggested he get a dog that was a little easier contained and less apt to wind up in the livestock, such as the little laso ahpso (sp?). He thought that might be a good idea.
I didn't know John Wayne was a dog shooting bad guy either.

[44shooter]

You know, the fact that there are such regional differences is one of the truly great things about this country. The ability of individual states to reflect the customs, needs and economics of the region is so much better than blanket laws for the whole country, except for those concerning basic rights. I find some of the western state laws odd, such as triple damages. Why should anyone owe three times the damage he caused, unless there is harmful intent? That's a rhetorical question, no need to answer. Your law, not ours. That's my point.

It is also curious to me that livestock may roam freely yet dogs are expected to be contained. Here generally both are expected to be confined to one's property. Yet a loose dog is more acceptable to most. There are too many roads, golf courses, crops, yards, strip malls and so on to allow stock to roam here. If either type gets loose and comes onto one's property, that person cannot legally harm the animal unless it is defense of person or property. Again, different laws for different places.

For the record, I will not shoot anyone's animal of any type unless I feel I really need to and I expect the same consideration. I will also try to keep any animals I may own from negatively impacting my neighbors and I expect the same.

This is my last post on this topic. I have learned a few things and I hope somebody got something from my perspective. I am now going to focus my energy on this site to reading about rifles and cartridges again.

[Doc Hudson]

My dog has his own fenced in yard . If he would get out and chasing not killing my neighbor's cattle and if he shot my dog . He better hope I don't see it happen since I'm armed 24/7 . He will never keep cattle in that field ever again , I would poison all his cattle .

I sympathize with your sentiments, but as the old saying goes. "Two wrongs don't make a right."

And poisoning cattle is definitely wrong. Wrong, sneaky, and underhanded.

[TX Gun Runner]

Your right ... He would know I did it but couldn't proof it . I love my dog . Just because a person J Walks don't give you the right to run over him with your car ....

[76/444]

Regardless of the Mississippi, criminal assault remains the same.

...

If I am hunting on your neighbor's property and my beagle chases a rabbit across the corner of your back pasture without causing damage, you do-not automatically have the right to kill it.

If you do, you or your insurance company will compensate me for my property loss.

If I can prosecute I will. If I win, you will forfeit your right to own a firearm for the rest of your life.

Killing a dog is distruction of property (at most). Criminal assault is harming a person.

I think we're getting a little carried away here.

Ya think?

[Malamute]

[quote="tn gun runner"]My dog has his own fenced in yard . If he would get out and chasing not killing my neighbor's cattle and if he shot my dog . He better hope I don't see it happen since I'm armed 24/7 . He will never keep cattle in that field ever again , I would poison all his cattle .


Interesting post.

It's probably good you don't live in the west. Laws where you are may, or may not be sympathetic to the cattle owner shooting dogs harrassing their stock, but you just implied that because you are armed full time, that would be bad for the cattle owner protecting their stock. It sounds like that means you would shoot someone that protected their stock. If the law was on their side for protecting their stock, your action would constitute murder, or at least assault with intent to commit murder of they survived. You could also find that you aren't the only person that goes armed. You also stated openly that you would poison livestock in retribution, even if the cattle owner was in the right. I believe that may be a felony, and setting yourself up for a long visit in the state pen.

I'm 100% a dog person, my dogs are like part of the family, but the laws are what the laws are. If I don't like it I can move, but I don't disagree with the laws. Sadly, many come to the western states and want to change things to make them "just like back home", then wonder why people don't act happy that they're here. Those that make enemies instead of friends generally dont last long, and often tell others how unfriendly those nasty western folks were.

Not meaning to stir up an unpleasantness, but your post was exceptionally ill advised.

[76/444]

You know, the fact that there are such regional differences is one of the truly great things about this country. The ability of individual states to reflect the customs, needs and economics of the region is so much better than blanket laws for the whole country, except for those concerning basic rights. I find some of the western state laws odd, such as triple damages. Why should anyone owe three times the damage he caused, unless there is harmful intent? That's a rhetorical question, no need to answer. Your law, not ours. That's my point.

It is also curious to me that livestock may roam freely yet dogs are expected to be contained. Here generally both are expected to be confined to one's property. Yet a loose dog is more acceptable to most. There are too many roads, golf courses, crops, yards, strip malls and so on to allow stock to roam here. If either type gets loose and comes onto one's property, that person cannot legally harm the animal unless it is defense of person or property. Again, different laws for different places.

For the record, I will not shoot anyone's animal of any type unless I feel I really need to and I expect the same consideration. I will also try to keep any animals I may own from negatively impacting my neighbors and I expect the same.

This is my last post on this topic. I have learned a few things and I hope somebody got something from my perspective. I am now going to focus my energy on this site to reading about rifles and cartridges again.

I'll answer this one!

"Triple Damages " is the result of uncontrolled dogs, either outright killing a momma cow, or, running her through a barbed wire fence and dieing from that, or being run to the point of aborting, or killing/running off her calf to the point it doesn't survive etc. etc.

You see, it's like this, most ranchers don't just have "a cow" out there on his private property or private lease,.... he has a momma cow, usually pregnant, with a suckling calf at her side. That makes THREE as in TRIPLE!!! So, when your dog runs a cow to death, it ain't just A COW! The potential of having major loss from one cow kill is very likely and very costly.

Just the running of a steer can take pounds off,... POUNDS that took many acres of feed to put on, over many months. Feeding this nation beef is a family business, not an entertainment facility for wayward spoiled house pets. Every pound run off a meat animal, are dollars out of a ranchers pocket!

Do you,... GET ,... TRIPLE DAMAGES NOW?

Now,.... LIVE STOCK ,.... historically have "roamed freely" because they needed to EAT! I don't know what the latest stats are, but, a few years ago here in Az. it was about TWO HUNDRED ACRES (200 acres) to feed a single animal !!! Maybe now you can understand why cattle/rancher states like Az. have "fence out" laws, not "fence them in laws"?

Welcome to the real west, from a Rancher's state that feeds you so you can have the energy to bitch about dogs taking money out of Rancher's pockets!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
p.s. for anyone playing the "I'll poison his stock' game,.... go for it guy!!! I don't know a rancher here in Az. that wouldn't take TRIPLE the animals value for your stupid move of poisoning them!!! Hybrid bull calves run around $ 5,000 to $30,000 each around here,... some places a WHOLE LOT MORE. You want to start dishing out $15,000 to $90,000 per head for poisoning, have at it!!!

[Doc Hudson]

I love my dog . Just because a person J Walks don't give you the right to run over him with your car ....

You are right.

I love my dog as much as you love yours. And if someone shot her without good reason, I'd be in a homicidal rage, and might do something very stupid.

Just because someone behaves like a jackass is no reason o behave like a criminal yourself.

Consider also, cattle can be poisoned, and maybe no legal proof can be made. But the homes of poisoners are not generally fireproof. Would you really want to risk escalating the dispute to the point it jeopardizes your family?

[L_Kilkenny]

The west in "pure geological terms" doesn't raise very much beef and doesn't feed the nation. But it seems odd that most of the issues I hear about with livestock and dogs are from western states. Also most of the most protective laws regarding livestock are in the west. The plains states including Texas and my home state of Iowa raise far more beef than states like New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, etc etc. When you break it down to cattle raised per square mile Nebraska is #1, Kansas #2, Oklahoma #3, Iowa #4. Texas per square mile raises only 75% as much beef as Iowa. BTW, the state quoted as having the triple penelties raises about 1/10 the beef that Iowa raises per square mile.

Go here if you want a list that DOES NOT take area into consideration and you will see that most of the western states rank very low in terms of beef produced.

http://www.bamabeef.org/NewStateandCountyrankings05.htm

Now my question is: Why is it that western states, with far fewer cattle and far fewer loose dogs, have more problem with dogs and livestock than Iowa which has more cattle and more loose farm dogs?

Just a thought,
LK

[76/444]

LK wrote,....

"Now my question is: Why is it that western states, with far fewer cattle and far fewer loose dogs, have more problem with dogs and livestock than Iowa which has more cattle and more loose farm dogs?"

=====================================================
Well, if you educate yourself to the historical facts , over the past one hundred years,... you could answer your question yourself.

I live in Cochise County Az., just outside the little home town of country western singer and movie star, Rex Allen.

The Cochise valley I live in the middle of, during the 20's, was classified as the " LARGEST CATTLE PRODUCING COUNTY IN THE NATION" Some historical reports claimed,... Cattle Capitol of the World,... others claim just the West, you decide! Overall, in it's hay day, some where around 40 to 50 thousand head were shipped out of its rail/stock yards. Sadly, we have had a long running drought that has hurt this reputation over the past half century.

Now, if you would, you can educate me,... just where do you get your info on how this (or any) western state has more problems with dogs and livestock,... than Iowa, which has more cattle and more loose farm dogs?

This inquiring mind wants to know?

[L_Kilkenny]

this inquiring mind wants to know?

Why the internet of coarse!!!!

Obviously my information with Iowa has to do withy my personal experience and that of the people I know. Also based on relationships with farmers, animal control and the game officials. Will dogs chase cattle here? Heck yes. Is it a widespread problem, Heck no.

My information with the western states has much to do with their laws, interaction with people and sites like this. This subject comes up quite often and 9 times out of ten it's started by someone based in Texas or the west.

It seems to me that certain areas of the country are more apt to shoot first, ask questions later. While other parts are more apt to give dogs the benifit of the doubt. Not saying one way is better than the other but it's just the way it is.

To answer you're question directly: I have eyes, ears and can read. Amazing what you can learn using those three things Pretty much the same things we all use to learn about any subject.


LK

[Blaine]

Just one dog rarely bothers anything, but if I see two or more moving together, I get this code red feeling, get small and quiet and ready myself to shoot. As to this Massive Dog Kill-Off in the west, I'm not really seeing much of that. If my animal hurt your animal, I'll shoot mine myself, but if he ain't doing no harm and it gets shot, there will be war.

[76/444]

this inquiring mind wants to know?

Why the internet of coarse!!!!

Obviously my information with Iowa has to do withy my personal experience and that of the people I know. Also based on relationships with farmers, animal control and the game officials. Will dogs chase cattle here? Heck yes. Is it a widespread problem, Heck no.

My information with the western states has much to do with their laws, interaction with people and sites like this. This subject comes up quite often and 9 times out of ten it's started by someone based in Texas or the west.

It seems to me that certain areas of the country are more apt to shoot first, ask questions later. While other parts are more apt to give dogs the benifit of the doubt. Not saying one way is better than the other but it's just the way it is.

To answer you're question directly: I have eyes, ears and can read. Amazing what you can learn using those three things Pretty much the same things we all use to learn about any subject.


LK

Good enough for me!!

[morgan in nm]

I am not sure I really wanted to comment on this thread but with my background and personal experience, I will. I have had to shoot many dogs, even my own over the years for roaming as well as killing livestock. I have shed my tears over each one as I am a dog lover. The reason why the "west" has such a problem is that we are in a drought. Cattle need several acres to find enough to eat and if cattle are spread thin, feral dogs have to pack and travel great distances to be successful. I don't know how many people who have commented thus far have had the experience of having their livestock killed, and not just for food as I lost many animals who were killed and their carcasses were left to rot. Usually, if a stray wonders up on the place chasing animals, I will catch the culprit and call my neighbors to pick up their dog. Unfortunately, the next day its back and when that smell or taste of a dogs first kill sets in, I take care of the animal in the most humane method I know. I have put down several dogs that I have loved and taken good care of for roaming and chasing. It seems here that people will buy a dog when its a puppy but when they can't afford it, they want to imagine the fairy tale where the dog is running and jumping in the country side with the rabbits and what not. They turn them loose and the destruction begins. I have called animal control many times and their response most often is what do you want us to do about it.

Just my $.02 worth.

[TX Gun Runner]

Now if my dog would come over everyday and runs your cattle , I could see taking some action , but shooting him because he a dog on your land and chasing a cow or steer . I don't think a 100 lbs Pitbull is a good match for a 700 plus lbs steer . I would gladly pay 3X times the lost or damage to your steer . If your unarmed teen age son would break into my house , do you think I have the right to shoot him if he not threading me or a family member but he is kicking my dog .

[pharmseller]

tn gun runner,
With all due respect I've read your posts on this thread and I cannot see your logic. Your statements appear to be, well, inflammatory at best.
Poisoning cattle.
Implied threat because you're armed.
Running people over.
Shooting unarmed teenagers.

I have to wonder what your agenda is.

P

[prebans]

Now if my dog would come over everyday and runs your cattle , I could see taking some action , but shooting him because he a dog on your land and chasing a cow or steer . I don't think a 100 lbs Pitbull is a good match for a 700 plus lbs steer . I would gladly pay 3X times the lost or damage to your steer . If your unarmed teen age son would break into my house , do you think I have the right to shoot him if he not threading me or a family member but he is kicking my dog .

Actually, yes. You DO have the legal right to shoot burglars in many states.

Burglary IS often considered a violent felony and the criminal may be fired upon. Legislators have wisely recognized that it is impossible for the violated homeowner to easily determine if the burglar is or is not armed. Therefore, the burglar may be fired upon with or without knowledge of any weapons being present. In addition, the homeowner is also immune to civil suits in most states for firing upon the burglar.

You may want to review the concept of Castle Doctrine. This is especially wise given that you're in Tennessee, a state with VERY powerful "Stand Your Ground" laws that would put that burglarizing teen - LEGALLY - in a box as soon as s/he entered the structure. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doc ... ted_States for more information.

Also, having dealt with pit bulls, I can assure you that a pit bull is a solid match for a 700 pound steer. All the dog needs to do is take out one leg and the steer goes toppling over. Then go for the neck and it's done.

I love dogs and don't ever want to shoot one, but I completely and totally sympathize and support the right of ranchers and farmers to shoot dogs harassing their livestock on sight. Frankly, the owners of such dogs should be held liable for treble damages in ALL states; when those dogs kill livestock, they kill that farmer's/rancher's livelihood as well.

Mike