30-30, Is it adequate?

[cshold]

An interesting and at times humorous thread I’ve been following.
http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=57958

[El Chivo]

somebody please tell that guy about the 35 Rem, same rifle, better for short range brush and bears...just what he wants.

[Bogie35]

somebody please tell that guy about the 35 Rem, same rifle, better for short range brush and bears...just what he wants.

+1

bogie

[nemhed]

Quote from OP of that thread:"I'll be using it mainly as a brush gun but also for hunting".

So how much gun does one need to kill brush?

[Hobie]

Well, if anyone can stand to read the whole topic we should have some interesting posts!

[nemhed]

Well, if anyone can stand to read the whole topic we should have some interesting posts!

That thread goes on for 7 pages, maybe it's the first time the subject came up over there. I wonder if they've ever discussed which is better a Marlin or a Winchester.

[Nath]

I have not read the thread, the title here made me chuckle enough

Nath.

[BigSky56]

Some people feel udergunned with a 458 mag, having killed moose, elk and deer with a 30-30 my dad has killed elk with a 25-35 know a guy up here that took a grizzly with a 25-35. What it boils down too is its the shooter not the gun. danny

[Steve Collins]

Do those people actually hunt? The .30-30 will take anything in the lower 48, and a lot of what is in the far north. IIRC, there are a lot of leverguns still in Alaska, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of them are .30-30.

[deerwhacker444]

That thread should have been locked after the first response, which answered his question completely.

[Rifleman336]

Yeah, I read two pages of that post and I'm under the impression that "leverite" thinks one needs a Bazooka for chipmunk hunting, and even then it might be "marginal".

Here their are countless pictures of ELK, killed with a .30-30 Win. But not a bull elk? Are they wearing interceptor armoured vests? And hunting pressure!!! All in his head. He comes off as impaitent or unskilled.

He then trys to say you see all the pictures of the ones that got "lucky" , but not the wounded animals, that got away. Funny does he have pictures of the ones that got away from his beloved .350 Remington Magnum??!!!

This guy is the guy that reads the gun rags and swallows hook line and sinker you shouldn't hunt elk with anything less than a .300 Win Mag, for the .30-06 is washed up and can't be trusted on shots over 100 yards!!!!

I wish I was making the last part up but it was in Guns and Ammo, in the Q&A section in the mid 90's. It was the most rediclious thing I've read. It obvious that some people can't shoot straight or lack any skill what so ever in stalking game and they blame their rifle and the cartridge for their shortfalls.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. And I'm under the impression that "leverite" is one of the last people to take advice or has the paitence to learn. And his results are experianced accordingly.

Rifleman 336

[NonPCnraRN]

Too bad they haven't read about the Win 94 by Sam Fadala. I think a 30-30 or 30-30 Imp with 190 gr Hawk bullets ( Fadala pulled 303 Savage bullets) should do the trick. He also has loads for little critters for meat in the camp cast iron dutch oven or skillet. What other chambering will take squirrels and rabbits to moose and elk as well as the 30-30? If charged by a bear I'd rather have a 30-30 than pepper spray. If I am going to get eaten, I sure as he!! ain't going to season myself for the bears gastronomic enjoyment.

[Rusty]

There's a guy near me that owns a gunshop. Our kids went to school together. He has a hunting lease in Georgia. A few years ago when they were just coming out with the short magnums he bought a .300 WSM. According to him he saw the buck of a lifetime sneaking through a clear cut so out comes the WSM and BLAM! Then the deer just runs off. He said he went to the area where the deer was standing and there was good blood on the ground. Couldn't find a thing. They even went and got some dogs to help him trail the deer. Nothing. When he got back from the trip he called a guy he knows at Winchester and asked him, what gives? The asked him how close were you? He says, pretty close about 40 yards. Mr. Factory rep says, yep. that's your problem. You were too close. The bullet was still traveling at a velocity so fast that the bullet wasn't preforming as well as we'd like it. When he told me the story I said, so if you'd have been using your uncle's old beat up Winchester .30-30 you'd be submitting that for the Boone & Crocket book about now? All he could do was nod his head.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I loved this quote from the thread ... "Nothing ruins a moose hunt quite as much as actually shooting one." I've not hunted moose, but I can't even begin to figure how one packs out a moose alone ... or even with a couple of guides. I'm sure some of you Canadians or Alaskans can explain it. I'm sure there's a horse or tractor involved though.

[O.S.O.K.]

Given this statement by the thread starter: "Thanks for the replies guys. I think I will be getting that marlin now.

Like I said I will be hunting with it, but I mainly wanted it for bear protection. I wanted a rifle that would be short like a carbine so I could be quick with it, With a quicker reload than a bolt, but still have enough power to take down bears and other dangerous animals. So I thought the 30-30 was the best choice.

Again thanks for the replies!"

I'd recommend a Marlin M94 or Rossi m92 - 44 Mag. A little lighter, shorter but carries a big thump.

But the 30 WCF will do the trick very well.

[tman]

wonder how many hunters were eatin' trying to kill a charging brown bear with a 30-30. probablly none. at CLOSE RANGE, a 30 caliber bullet, wheter it's going 2000fps. , or 3500fps, will probablly have the same effect on the target. . 338 doesn't make THAT MUCH a bigger hole. always got a kick out the bear stories in gun rags. bet they sold a lot of bigbore magnums wonder if the gun magazines of the 1830's scared the mountain men out of their .50 calibers,assurring them that the inadequate .50 would bonce off the bears head. you need a .54, better yet a .72. do you want to get eaten?

[jlchucker]

The topic and some of the responses shown on that link are why I no longer subscribe to gun rags like "Guns & Ammo", "Gun World" or a few others.

[shdwlkr]

If you are going to have a lever action rifle for "bear protection" I would like to have a .375 winchester with 268 grain bullet or a 45-70 with 425 grain bullet. For no other reason then I can load a heavier bullet. Notice I didn't say faster as speed isn't as important as stopping that charging bear.
If all I had was a winchester 30-30 then I want a 311041 bullet and have it running about 1700-1900 fps just so the bear knows when I connect with him.
My one son-in-law got his black bear with a 30-30 170 grain factory load and only needed I think it was 2 shots might have been only one can't remember exactly. Seemed to be enough gun to me. I wouldn't feel under gunned with only a 30-30 but I like the caliber and understand it limits.

[Coldfingers]

"Nothing ruins a moose hunt quite as much as actually shooting one." I've not hunted moose, but I can't even begin to figure how one packs out a moose alone ... or even with a couple of guides.

One piece at a time Rimfire, one piece at a time. A trophy class moose from an area like Hess Creek or Koyokuk River (BIG bodied bulls!) will take about 10 trips by the time the antlers are out...add another for the cape. These are loads on a packframe that require assistance from another packer to get stood up with and usually require walking sticks to keep one from falling in the afroturf. I have been know to let em walk if they are more than a 1/4 mile from the boat. I am waaayyy to old for that kind of fun anymore.

Some folks have just never had to do their killin with small caliber rifles. Heck, I spend the better part of my early years here in AK feeding kids with a Mini-14. No one told me it would not kill big game. I guess the moose&bears we ate were pretty un-educated also. I'd shoot em behind the shoulder from about fifty yards and they would die in short order

Would have liked a 30-30, what a killer that would have been!

Scotty

[graham1]

I always chuckle when people wonder if a 30-30 is enough to kill whatever. Nobody seems to feel underpowered with a bow when hunting. I you can kill it with a pointy stick I reckon a 30 calibre bullet should do the job.

It's been said a million times before. "Shot placement is critical".
A .338 to the guts isn't going to achieve the desired results. It will likely go through more bone than a 30-30 but if your hitting the shoulder blade of a moose at 200 yards you haven't put the bullet where it should be.

[shdwlkr]

graham1
You haven't caught on to the modern way of shooting. You get the biggest magnum caliber rifle that you buy, never mind the flinch you have from shooting it or the fact you need a target the size of barn to shoot at. You are not a hunter anymore unless you shoot a 600 caliber magnum with thousands of tons of energy at a target that the military would consider long range.
Me I am stupid and use old calibers that are not worth mentioning as they are all underpowered and shoot at ranges I am sure of where the bullet goes. Let alone the fact that I shoot small diameter bullets according to those in the know, never shoot farther then I am confident in and always get as close as I can. Guess I had better stop hunting and go sit in my rocker and leave the hunting to those who shoot from one state to the next as that is how it is done in the real world.

[Griff]

It was good enough in 1895, it's good enough today. Whether the user is, is really the question.

Gotta love some of the comments, especially this one: "...Hunting has changed..."; no duh, it changes each and every trip to the field, sometimes during a trip! But... the ballistic data has remained effectively unchanged... the game has not undergone any environmental or physiological changes beyond the norms of the species. Which leads me to conclude that ammo that worked 100 years ago will work again today.

[shdwlkr]

Griff
You know that the animal has become so much resistant to bullets that you have to have one of those wiz bang calibers that knocks you on your behind to even get close and that is within 500-1000 yards anymore because the animals have gps sensing now and know when the hunter enters the field.
Also you know all those gun experts couldn't be wrong on your needing that wiz bang caliber with a real wizzer scope that lasers in on your game animal and tells you how far, the wind direction, which bullet to have in your wiz bang and also just how much lead you need on the animal.
Last but not the least is to make sure you have your helicopter warmed up so you don't have to walk that 1000 plus yards to find your kill.
Yep things sure haven't changed in the minds of those selling wiz bang calibers and all the other stuff you don't need. What ever happened to real hunting and the fact that you don't always come home with meat. How does that not make it a successful hunt? If all you are after is the game then you are not a hunter but a killer and I am saddened that is how our sport has grown.

[madman4570]

I couldn't do it(read it all) I quit after the guy said he wont even hunt bear and on and on????????
30-30 for Black Bear??-----------Ya, Its enough,especially for that guy!

[oldboot]

I once had a kid at a gun shop tell me that the 30-30 is good for a jackrabbit and nothing more. I hate this magnum-mania. I guess this kid has been reading Guns & Ammo. In last month's issue Guns & Ammo refered to a double action pistol as Double action only and on the first round and single action on the rest. It sound like a regular double action pistol to me.

[tman]

takes more skill to level a charging brown bear with a 30-30 than a 458. funny, lot of hunters do it with bows, handguns, and muzzle loaders. i admire the oldtimers who did it with .44-40's and 45 muzzleloaders. sad , that , the MODERN hunter needs a 416 magnum, with, a premium bullet, and, of course, a skillled guide, with a 460 weatheryby backing him up. least those old mountain men in heaven are getting a good laugh.

[Rifleman336]

I myself would be a little weary about going in to grizz country with a .30-30 Win, but I wouldn't rule it out. I had two men from my town in Ohio, that tryed going Grizz hunting with .30-30's and both came home in a box.

So granted theres no denying, there are dead grizzlys that died after being shot by the .30-30. But I don't know personally that I could be as cool under the fear of confronting such a dangerous and powerful animal.

But I have a 12 ga shotgun for that. The locals use it more than any other weapon, for their cheaper than any ubber magnum pistol, and cheaper than a ubber magnum rifle. So for the price of $200 and some quality hardcast slugs.

Ofcourse others like the "washed up" .45-70, and it's probably more common in stores than anywhere else in the lower 48. So the locals don't use things that don't work. And hats off to people, that are cool enough to pull it off with a .30-30.

But other than that I'll take the .30-30 for everything else in North America.

Rifleman 336

[NonPCnraRN]

Brush gun? I suppose you could use a gun for a brush but your hair would be frizzy from the powder burns.

[DBW]

I kill my critters with a '07 Kenworth. A couple of deer, several coyotes, a snake or two, some squirrels and several billion bugs.

[El Chivo]

I had two men from my town in Ohio, that tryed going Grizz hunting with .30-30's and both came home in a box

the same box? sorry, but I get the image of one big box full of mixed parts...

[shdwlkr]

I believe that the 30-30 has taken all the game animals that exist in North America, but that doesn't mean any fool can do it. First you have to know how to shoot and hit the animal in a vital area and if you are hunting a grizzly bear then you had better know where to put those bullets and I would want the heaviest that put in a 30-30 and know how to use them.
I believe the original post mentioned black bear and they are not as hard to kill with a 30-30 as my son-in-law has done it and is looking to do it again. Me I would rather have my 375 winchester and 270 grain lead bullets or my 45-70 with 425 grain bullets for any bear as I really don't like getting the excitement up beyond a certain level as it gets the heart pounding to hard and then I can't hear a dang thing.
If all I had was a 30-30 and 170 grain bullets I wouldn't feel under gunned more like really close to being not a good thing and I would unload that rifle into the bear and also reload as I was shooting until the bear stopped coming and showing any signs of life.
What most "hunters" today don't know is how to hunt and that is sad as one day it just might be the last for them. The Eskimos and Canadians have been using 30-30's and less and they have been successful hunting, so that leaves the American hunter looking a little less qualified to be in the field. Maybe is it the lack of the 600 wiz bang rifle that is the reason for the failure rate or maybe the gun rag writers forgot to mention that bears do bite when mad, wounded or protecting their young and you go and shoot at them.

[tman]

I myself would be a little weary about going in to grizz country with a .30-30 Win, but I wouldn't rule it out. I had two men from my town in Ohio, that tryed going Grizz hunting with .30-30's and both came home in a box.

So granted theres no denying, there are dead grizzlys that died after being shot by the .30-30. But I don't know personally that I could be as cool under the fear of confronting such a dangerous and powerful animal.

But I have a 12 ga shotgun for that. The locals use it more than any other weapon, for their cheaper than any ubber magnum pistol, and cheaper than a ubber magnum rifle. So for the price of $200 and some quality hardcast slugs.

Ofcourse others like the "washed up" .45-70, and it's probably more common in stores than anywhere else in the lower 48. So the locals don't use things that don't work. And hats off to people, that are cool enough to pull it off with a .30-30.

But other than that I'll take the .30-30 for everything else in North America.

Rifleman 336

sorryto hear about those two poor souls. but, would a 300 or 338 had made a difference? just curious

[Chas.]

That thread should have been locked after the first response, which answered his question completely.

And this thread should have been locked before the first response. The virus has spread and now this one is well on it's way to several pages. Ford or Chevrolet? Or in my day, Ford, Chevrolet, or Plymouth?

[cshold]

That thread should have been locked after the first response, which answered his question completely.

And this thread should have been locked before the first response. The virus has spread and now this one is well on it's way to several pages. Ford or Chevrolet? Or in my day, Ford, Chevrolet, or Plymouth?

[Rifleman336]

[quote="tman"][quote="Rifleman336"]I myself would be a little weary about going in to grizz country with a .30-30 Win, but I wouldn't rule it out. I had two men from my town in Ohio, that tryed going Grizz hunting with .30-30's and both came home in a box.

So granted theres no denying, there are dead grizzlys that died after being shot by the .30-30. But I don't know personally that I could be as cool under the fear of confronting such a dangerous and powerful animal.

But I have a 12 ga shotgun for that. The locals use it more than any other weapon, for their cheaper than any ubber magnum pistol, and cheaper than a ubber magnum rifle. So for the price of $200 and some quality hardcast slugs.

Ofcourse others like the "washed up" .45-70, and it's probably more common in stores than anywhere else in the lower 48. So the locals don't use things that don't work. And hats off to people, that are cool enough to pull it off with a .30-30.

But other than that I'll take the .30-30 for everything else in North America.

Rifleman 336[/quote]
sorryto hear about those two poor souls. but, would a 300 or 338 had made a difference? just curious[/quote]


From what was said they emptyed, there rifles and and were using there .44 Mag back up guns, when the bear took them out. The bear died of it's injuries after it was all said and done. Who knows what happened, as far who missed and hit and where. But it only takes one swipe from a Grizz to break the neck of a cow, and thus a punny human doesn't stand a chance. So could a Magnum calibered gun made the difference, for the two guys who knows. But I think what could have made a difference is if they had a local hunting guide, one that could tell'em what to do and not do, and live to tell about it.

In all the exeitment, they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. You can have a world champion target shooter, that gets in to a real honest to good gun fight and they can't hit anything they're going for. Fact of life.

For me I don't know if I could deliver if it counts. I don't know until I'm in trouble. But even with my choice with a 12ga with slugs, I could fail.

Rifleman 336

[tman]

I myself would be a little weary about going in to grizz country with a .30-30 Win, but I wouldn't rule it out. I had two men from my town in Ohio, that tryed going Grizz hunting with .30-30's and both came home in a box.

So granted theres no denying, there are dead grizzlys that died after being shot by the .30-30. But I don't know personally that I could be as cool under the fear of confronting such a dangerous and powerful animal.

But I have a 12 ga shotgun for that. The locals use it more than any other weapon, for their cheaper than any ubber magnum pistol, and cheaper than a ubber magnum rifle. So for the price of $200 and some quality hardcast slugs.

Ofcourse others like the "washed up" .45-70, and it's probably more common in stores than anywhere else in the lower 48. So the locals don't use things that don't work. And hats off to people, that are cool enough to pull it off with a .30-30.

But other than that I'll take the .30-30 for everything else in North America.

Rifleman 336

sorryto hear about those two poor souls. but, would a 300 or 338 had made a difference? just curious

From what was said they emptyed, there rifles and and were using there .44 Mag back up guns, when the bear took them out. The bear died of it's injuries after it was all said and done. Who knows what happened, as far who missed and hit and where. But it only takes one swipe from a Grizz to break the neck of a cow, and thus a punny human doesn't stand a chance. So could a Magnum calibered gun made the difference, for the two guys who knows. But I think what could have made a difference is if they had a local hunting guide, one that could tell'em what to do and not do, and live to tell about it.

In all the exeitment, they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. You can have a world champion target shooter, that gets in to a real honest to good gun fight and they can't hit anything they're going for. Fact of life.

For me I don't know if I could deliver if it counts. I don't know until I'm in trouble. But even with my choice with a 12ga with slugs, I could fail.

Rifleman 336

thanks for the update. i'd choose my 45-70 with the biggest, hardcast bullets at the highest MV. if i was going brown bear hunting. but, probably more brown bear were killed with 30-30's than were wounded with .338 magnums. it doesn't matter what i'd choose. from what you described i don't think a 460 weatheryby mag. would have helped those guys. fact is fact. enough hunters have killed brown bear with a 30-30 to say it's more than a stunt. i'd prefer my .45-70, but , i wound'nt pass up a ALL EXPENCES PAID HUNT, if all i had was a 30-30 ,using 170grn. corelocts.

[Malamute]

The thread was interesting to read, and it was somewhat humorous seeing how people get worked up about things.

Yes, certainly the 30-30 is an adequate black bear rifle. However, I'm also amused when people start in with the "magnumitis" and other such comments, and also imply that anyone that chooses a heavier caliber rifle, or one with a different action type or a scope, arent "real" hunters, or the assumption that anyone using a heavier caliber gun will be gut shooting their game, or simply is incapable of shooting. The fact is, there's enough people that can't shoot well, period. It happens with 30-30's as well as anything faster or larger, it's just a fact of life. Anyone that isn't capable of shooting their rifle well needs to practice, go down in power until they can handle it, or take up another sport. I've heard of guides that make their hunters shoot a target, and if they can't shoot their gun well enough, they go home with no hunt. There's plenty if guys that can shoot heavier caliber guns very well, it gets tiring hearing the old lame saws about anyone using a magnum anything or a "modern" rifle are duffers. I'm no spectacular shot, but have been able to shoot both the 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H well enough to shoot 1 1/4" groups @ 100 yards sitting or kneeling. I think the 338 is an outstanding hunting round, with high enough velocity for relatively flat trajectory and decent shock effect, and enough bullet weight for excellent penetration on large sharp edge varmints. One of my greatest regrets is trading off my 338 several years ago.

I like all sorts of guns. I own more levers than anything else, and carry a lever regularly. What difference does it make if I like (and shoot well) something different? Because you choose one thing, for whatever reason, doesn't neccesitate critisizing or putting down anyone else that chooses something different, or throwing all the slob shooters/hunters into one big pot, because they really don't fit. It makes us look silly to try to do so.

[JerryB]

Thanks Malamute, well said and enough.

[a357lever]

when i was in northern canada a saw a big bull caribou at 90 yards or so it took one shot he hit the heart i saw the blood pump out in seconds and it fell dead. i won't forget that shot i had it on video but it never aired of course. we were all thiking that the 30-30 with a 4x scope he was shooting w/150gr silvertips was not enough gun but a good shot is a good shot.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I hear, if you jerk the trigger real hard ,you can get an extra 20 f.p.s. out of the .30-30. That aught to make those bears stand up and listen!