thoughts on the 375 BB winchester?

[txpete]

as well as the 444 ???

[Buck Elliott]

RSY -- yup. That's right. to a point. There is NO "extra strength" built into the Big Bore.

Winchester/USRAC engineers should have increased the sidewall thickness of the '94 receiver -- even 0.015" per side, and eliminated the AE feature on the Big Bore series. THAT would have been the correct answer to their "problem." Instead, they left the reconfiguration up to the bone-heads in marketing... I'd love to have been around the water cooler when the subject was debated.

txpete -- The .444 Marlin cartridge is rated at 44,000 CUP (42,000 psi...), making it more than acceptable in the '94, in almost any configuration.

[txpete]

hmmm from paco (444)
The Marlin is a fine leveraction so I’m not comparing good verses not good. I’m rating strength to withstand pressure over a sustained life time of active shooting with each design. The Marlin is rated at tops 45,000+psi and the Winchester 94 Big Bore (that’s the fatside action, not the common action 94) is rated at 55,000+psi.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm

I am very sure paco did his homework so what gives ??.not trying to stir the pot but something here is wrong.

[Sixgun]

Mike,
The 375 is nothing more than a hot 38-55. Some of my 38-55's run .377 and I run the same ammo in both of 'em. In fact, I even shoot my 38-55 ammo that is sized .379 out of my .375. With a good semi- to hot load, it will easily kill anything (in the thin skinned list) out to 200.-----------Sixgun

[Buck Elliott]

hmmm from paco (444)
The Marlin is a fine leveraction so I’m not comparing good verses not good. I’m rating strength to withstand pressure over a sustained life time of active shooting with each design. The Marlin is rated at tops 45,000+psi and the Winchester 94 Big Bore (that’s the fatside action, not the common action 94) is rated at 55,000+psi.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm

I am very sure paco did his homework so what gives ??.not trying to stir the pot but something here is wrong.

As I stated before, the .444 Marlin runs at allowable SAAMI Maximum Average pressure of 44,000 CUP (42,000 ANSI psi), which is safe enough in either the 336 Marlin or the '94 Winchester. The .307 and .356 Winchester cartridges top out at 53,000 CUP -- same as the .308 and .358 Winchester rounds, and they are consideed safe in the '94 BB as well as the Marlin 336.

Winchester did nothing to the "chamber area" of the BB to increase strength there, as far as I know, yet those guns in .307 and .356 seem to work well enough. The guns in question just don't have the safety margin to let me be completely comfortable with them for other applications, and are NOT adaptable to the .454 or similar cartridges.

A large part of the problem with conversion to the .454 Casull ctg. arises from the rapid acceleration of heavy bullets, combined with the peak chamber pressure, which can be up to 65,000 psi for that round. The battering effect of that combination is severe, to say the least. The 300-gr. +/- CAST bullets used in my testing are punishing enough, but the old FA factory loaded 260-gr JFP bullets are even harder on the guns.

"PSI" and "CUP" are NOT the same, although the terms have been used (erroniously) interchangeably for years, especially before the advent of piezo-electric straingauge measurement. The two systems can be correlated, however, and the means for doing so have been laid out in an article by Denton Bramwell, copyrighted 2002. http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

I'm sure Paco "did his homework," just as I have, and I don't really see the problem you're having. Neither am I completely certain where the above-mentioned "rating" system comes from, other than someone's personal observations and conclusions, which are open to debate and question, just the same as mine...

IOW, nothing is particularly "wrong" here. Just a difference in approach and conclusions. If you shoot factory ammunition or factory-equivalent handloads, you'll be fine.

[txpete]

did you test the orginal BB rifles top eject or just the AE BB's??.
pete

[Buck Elliott]

did you test the orginal BB rifles top eject or just the AE BB's??.
pete

The only BB "volunteered" for testing was the AE model.

[txpete]

did you test the orginal BB rifles top eject or just the AE BB's??.
pete

The only BB "volunteered" for testing was the AE model.

I am not going to volunteer my BB 375 top eject its kind of a mute point as 99% of what I shoot is cast anyways.

pete

[Buck Elliott]

Testing was done over the winter/spring of 1986/1987.

I feel no need to make any further tests of that kind right now. But who knows what the future might bring...?

The Winchester folks got wind of the tests -- probably through someone at Freedom Arms -- and determined to have FA do some parallel testing, a year or two later. The FA tests proved the same conclusions I reached. Which is why the '94 was never offered in .454 Casull chambering.

[bobbyjack]

Well Buck that seems kind of useless as in just what rifles were recomended for use with the 454Casull?

Let me quess Rossie ,Right? So what you say is in effect that the Win BB,Marlin,Savage 99,and the Rem Nylon 66 and hundreds of other rifles can't handle that kind of pressure!

I thank you for your observation!

Bob

[txpete]

not the 66 also....

[C. Cash]

Well Buck that seems kind of useless as in just what rifles were recomended for use with the 454Casull?

Let me quess Rossie ,Right? So what you say is in effect that the Win BB,Marlin,Savage 99,and the Rem Nylon 66 and hundreds of other rifles can't handle that kind of pressure!

I thank you for your observation!

Bob

Buck was obviously trying to show folks that they were gonna hurt themselves(those bent on trying this conversion)...a noble effort, and the effect of the overpressure cartridge on each action, fascinating. We are lucky to have his input on this forum. BTW Buck's answer to the 454 Casull was not the Rossie but his own hybrid that is a scaled down 1886, or scaled up 92, depending on how you look at it, and of a harder steel.

[Buck Elliott]

There have been many Rossi/Puma .454 Casull carbines of my aquaintance. each and every one of them has experienced problems related to the pounding delivered by the cartridge. One local gunshop had the same gun come back for trade THREE times, after each new owner had parts break or become unserviceable.

The little '92 action requires unusual modifications to allow for the extra length of the .454 cartridge. It can be done, but the angled locking geometry remains a persistant problem.

The 99 Savage is bigger than needed for the cartridge, and may not hold up anyway. I have my opinions about that, but have done no definitive testing of that rifle/action.

The Nylon 66 --- Surely you jest...

The rifle I designed is perfect for the cartridge, and most of the other big-bore, high-intensity revolver cartridges, up to and including the .500 Linebaugh Maximum and the .500 S&W.

[Old Time Hunter]

Well I can't say much about the 454 thingy as it would never trip my trigger (pun intended) anyways. But, I've done worn out two barrels on my '94 .375 Win and work'n on my third (but I've slowed way down over the last couple of years with that one). Tote'd that one clear across the country multiple times in various competition events against some pretty new fangled stuff made to look old and yet always finished near or on top of the board. Even won one event using standard Wisconsin Cartridges loads (220 grain Hdy's). I will say that mine is well broken in and I can probably cycle it without touch'n the lever, 'course the trigger sets off with a hardy 1.25# too, so ya gotta be careful. Over time, I've had to reduce my 220gr JSP bullet load from 32 grains of H4198 down to 30.5 as the pressure signs have started to show, but since I've gone to AA1680 (34 grains) and increased velocity with no inclination to high pressure. So I am very fond of the '94 BB375 and will gladly compete with my rules against anything with a 454 thingy in it.

[RSY]

Well I can't say much about the 454 thingy as it would never trip my trigger (pun intended) anyways. But, I've done worn out two barrels on my '94 .375 Win and work'n on my third (but I've slowed way down over the last couple of years with that one).

OTH:

What signs cropped up that indicated you needed barrel replacements? Just curious, so's I can keep an eye out on mine.

Thanks,
Scott

p.s. Buck, your rifle you described sounds like one slick design. Do you market them for sale?

[Old Time Hunter]

OTH:

What signs cropped up that indicated you needed barrel replacements? Just curious, so's I can keep an eye out on mine.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott, at around 12-13 thousand rounds, and multiple re-crowning the first barrel was losing some of the rifling. Especially just past the chamber in the throat. It was hard to keep a consistant five shot group on an 8" pie plate from 75 yards to 200 yards without changing sight settings (I use a ghost ring set up). Changed out the barrel, a little tweeking and got another 10k of rounds out of the second. That is when the high pressure started showing up, first sticky ejection, then hard ejection along with flat primers. Could be the receiver might of stretched a bit as headspace went to the higher end of go, but after putting the third barrel on and setting the headspace to min, replacing the locking lug (mic'd the bolt, it was within tolerance), still had sticky ejection. Backed down a grain of H4198, everything is fine, but it will only spit out the 220 gr at 2090 fps (chrono' at 15'), whereas the AA1680 load flies out at 2275 fps. Had to tweek the sights as this load tended to shoot high and slightly left for some reason.

[txpete]

hmmm I just picked up 2 pounds of 1680 for the 357 max and I might have to try it in the 375 win.I walked into a local shop and it was on the bottom self covered with dust @ 14.99 a lb.
pete

[jbm1968]

I have one. It is everything you could want in a lightweight carbine. Mine holds 2.5 inches from the sitting position at 100 meters with a Williams FP and is powerful enough for anything in North America. I like it because it is light weight, carries easy, is accurate and powerful.