Why bother with the 45-70?

HATCHETTJACK · Post by **HATCHETTJACK** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:38 am

i use nothing but +p loads in my 45-70 and out to 200 hundred yards nothing beats it in knockdown power... also i use only hardcast.. if you take out both front shoulders of any animal they tend not to run very far... nothing but one shot drt since ive owned my marlin xlr.. have hunted with many rifles and none of them can
compare... 444 is a good rabbit gun tho

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:11 am

ya, the 45-70 with the big loads sure does deliver soom great knockdown power. But got to say the .460 Weatherby is more gun! Honestly I personally dont think its that bad OFF THE BENCH.Shooting it ON THE BENCH it bruises you.But I dont hunt game on the bench.actually I might trade bro my 1969 Ruger #1 45-70 for his .460 Weatherby.Tell you what want to shoot a worse kicking Gun at least to me than the .460???? I have a tiny little Single Shot 22" H&R Handi Rifle right now took off the scout scope,has open sights(its about 6lbs soaking wet/loaded

) Stick some of the Buffalo Bore 405gr@2000fps and touch her off on the bench

Try about 5 or 6! Then after your arms gets its feeling back in it.The .460 OFFHAND isnt nothing.Offhand or on sticks I have yet to shoot somthing too much though I am sure there is some,but honestly on the bench(to enjoy)that little H&R with those loads are too much! Much worse that my Ruger#1 loaded with the 405grs at 2250fps on the bench.Though I have not shot a .577 Tyranosaur yet

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:57 pm

Because Ruger chambers the No.1 in 45-70. Duhhhhh......

And I want one....

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:16 pm

My .45-70 will shoot hard-cast 405- to 440-gr. bullets at 1850 fps -- comfortably and accurately -- all day long. For me, that is the epitome of .45-70 performance. I need nothing more for any critter (or rock, or stump) on this continent, and I have little likelihood of traveling to any other...

A .444 levergun cannot match that performance, even with bullets of similar sectional density.

The .444, as first introduced, was a bad joke, and later, heavier-bulleted loads did little to make up for the round's initial shortcomings.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:45 pm

C'mon Buck, that's a little harsh. I like to think of the .444 as a .44 mag with a 200 yard head start. It doesn't ever come close to the effects of the heavies from the 45/70, but that's old news.

For the youngsters who think the .444 is the be-all end-all lever gun, here's the effects of a 525g load in a 45/70 that recoils LESS than the stoked up .444s. BUT the .444 can't do this, to my knowledge. In fact, I've yet to see ANY load duplicate this effort. Not saying it can't happen, just that so far it hasn't shown up on the forum...

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:48 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:My .45-70 will shoot hard-cast 405- to 440-gr. bullets at 1850 fps -- comfortably and accurately -- all day long. For me, that is the epitome of .45-70 performance. I need nothing more for any critter (or rock, or stump) on this continent, and I have little likelihood of traveling to any other...

A .444 levergun cannot match that performance, even with bullets of similar sectional density.

The .444, as first introduced, was a bad joke, and later, heavier-bulleted loads did little to make up for the round's initial shortcomings.

a .444 loaded with 300-330 grain bullets will also take anything in north america, i'll bet the game will never notice the difference, plus, u get a little flatter trajectory. have both, love both, but you can't get a 45-70 in a model 94

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:57 pm

but you can't get a 45-70 in a model 94

you can't get a 525g bullet in a 94 either...

a .22 will "take" anything in north America too, but that's not a recommendation for it.

Grizz

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:16 pm

deleted

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:23 pm

You guys knocking the .444 would do well to read the following link:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/17

When you're finished reading it, read the other two .444 articles.

There is nothing that the .45-70 can do that the .444 Marlin can't.

There'll always be an argument over the .45-70 vs. the .444 Marlin. That's because the guys that shoot the .45-70 have had the sense knocked out of their little brains.

Actually, the argument of the virtues of the .45-70 over the .444 Marlin and vice-a-versa will never be settled.

Anyway, it's fun to sit back and read all the garbage spewed forth about how much better the .45-70 is than the .444 Marlin.

Personally, I don't think either the .45-70 or the .444 are heads and tails above the other. They've both got their place but either can do the job of the other.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:25 pm

Modoc ED wrote:You guys knocking the .444 would do well to read the following link:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/17

When you're finished reading it, read the other two .444 articles.

There is nothing that the .45-70 can do that the .444 Marlin can't.

There'll always be an argument over the .45-70 vs. the .444 Marlin. That's because the guys that shoot the .45-70 have had the sense knocked out of their little brains.

Anyway, it's fun to sit back and read all the garbage spewed forth about how much better the .45-70 is than the .444 Marlin.

Personally, I don't think either the .45-70 or the .444 are heads and tails above the other. They've both got their place but either can do the job of the other.

I always appreciate a voice of reason.

I could not agree more with the above post!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:46 pm

45-70: Holds MORE powder. Fires HEAVIER boolits FASTER. Yet, you choose to ignore physics

Show me you're 525 grain .444 load that will actually function. BTW, concerning Grizz's video? HELL, I was there, and that 525 gr load shot just fine out of the BFR I had at the time.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:09 pm

Man this is gonna be fun. Happens at least once a year....

There is nothing that the .45-70 can do that the .444 Marlin can't.

The .444 CANNOT SHOOT 525 GRAIN BULLETS.

but just keep straining at it, it's fun !!

HATCHETTJACK · Post by **HATCHETTJACK** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:31 pm

BlaineG wrote:45-70: Holds MORE powder. Fires HEAVIER boolits FASTER. Yet, you choose to ignore physics Show me you're 525 grain .444 load that will actually function. BTW, concerning Grizz's video? HELL, I was there, and that 525 gr load shot just fine out of the BFR I had at the time.

they cant show you one... and by the way nice elmer keith reference there

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:52 pm

Grizz wrote:
but you can't get a 45-70 in a model 94
you can't get a 525g bullet in a 94 either...

a .22 will "take" anything in north America too, but that's not a recommendation for it.

Grizz

a .444 330grn at about 2000fps. is a far cry from a .22. still say the biggest, baddest, brown bear won't know the difference.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:55 pm

76/444 wrote:Well,... I am no ballistician, but since Sectional Density has been brought into the conversation. If one were to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges,.... and if my notes/memory serve me correctly................

A .458 bullet of 300 grains has a SD of .204,.... where as a .310 bullet of 300 grains has a sectional density f .419.

Now, I guess I could find some other heavy weight SD slug data, but I believe the overall results will be comparative.
-------------------------------------------

Found the SD on a 400 grain bullet for both.

.458...SD .272
.310...SD .595

p.s at twice the SD as a 45/70,... when dealing with dangerous game,..... I think I'll stay with the 444.

OK Guys, Someone help me out! Where are you getting a .310 diameter from a .444?? I thought the .444 bullets dia is .429 inch diameter

which would greatly change the above .444 SD??????? Also dont get me wrong,I would love to have a 94 in .444(I think that is a great cal and I will give you that respect.)

Here is a recomended 444 bullet for the Win 94(check the dia)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=835162

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:04 pm

I LOVE my .444. I kid thee not! Like old Grizz sez, it's a .44 Mag with a head start. A .44 mag with a 300grain hard cast will take down anything in North America, but that does not make it a .444, nor can you make a .444 into a 45-70, nor can you make the 45-70 into a .50-110

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:09 pm

How about:

This is a dumb question.

Why do we need any cartridge?

Can't you do it all with a .50 Hawken?

45-70, 444, 30-06 blah, blah, blah.

Dead is dead. As long as the shot is good just about any bullet will do.

jb

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:22 pm

madman4570 wrote:
76/444 wrote:Well,... I am no ballistician, but since Sectional Density has been brought into the conversation. If one were to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges,.... and if my notes/memory serve me correctly................

Now, I guess I could find some other heavy weight SD slug data, but I believe the overall results will be comparative.
-------------------------------------------

OK Guys, Someone help me out! Where are you getting a .310 diameter from a .444?? I thought the .444 bullets dia is .429 inch diameter which would greatly change the above .444 SD??????? Also dont get me wrong,I would love to have a 94 in .444(I think that is a great cal and I will give you that respect.)

Here is a recomended 444 bullet for the Win 94(check the dia)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=835162

Sorry, my typo. should be .4310. I transposed the SD from my files as well. I am way off. here's my correction.......

.458 @ 300 grains = SD of 204

.431 @ 300 grains = SD of 231...... .429 @ 300 grains = SD 233

Try here for large diameter 44's.....scroll down menu on left.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

44's at Beartooth Bullets come in .429, .430, .431, .4315, and .432. diameters.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:48 pm

Hey 76,

my .44 mag handgun load is a .432 405g hard cast from BTB. I kid you not. I don't know if you can cycle one thru the .444, but it wouldn't matter if the barrel had the stupid marlin 1:38 twist rate. Won't stabilize. So in a way, my redhawk will out-perform your .444 near the muzzle. It penetrates douglas fir firewood like a 405g 45/70 load. No, really, I'm not kidding..... I'm pretty sure that your .444 won't do it with your favorite load. But I gave my son's .444 back to him and I can't check it out.

This really is fun Blaine!

Grizz

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:06 pm

Grizz wrote:Hey 76,

my .44 mag handgun load is a .432 405g hard cast from BTB. I kid you not. I don't know if you can cycle one thru the .444, but it wouldn't matter if the barrel had the stupid marlin 1:38 twist rate. Won't stabilize. So in a way, my redhawk will out-perform your .444 near the muzzle. It penetrates douglas fir firewood like a 405g 45/70 load. No, really, I'm not kidding..... I'm pretty sure that your .444 won't do it with your favorite load. But I gave my son's .444 back to him and I can't check it out.

This really is fun Blaine!

Grizz

Remind me, and I'll bring the .444 next shoot.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:09 pm

Guys, You got laugh with all this going back and fourth.(as long as we can all laugh

) Actually any of these will take anything we need to take.Look at JIM SHOCKEY with his muzzle loader(he has taken everything there is)Guys killing everything there is with Bow/Muzzle loader/Handgun/and we are stressing over our big bores of which will kill it faster.

Tell you what bring any game on the planet up to my land and I will shoot it with my Ithaca deerslayer(5--- 550grs of super hardcast stuff)Or if someone wants to pay the trip I will go anywhere and shoot whatever there.

(if 5 rds in 2 seconds dont stop it,and I end up getting killed for the team --Then thats cool too!

Though I doubt it!

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:23 pm

Grizz wrote:Hey 76,

my .44 mag handgun load is a .432 405g hard cast from BTB. I kid you not. I don't know if you can cycle one thru the .444, but it wouldn't matter if the barrel had the stupid marlin 1:38 twist rate. Won't stabilize. So in a way, my redhawk will out-perform your .444 near the muzzle. It penetrates douglas fir firewood like a 405g 45/70 load. No, really, I'm not kidding..... I'm pretty sure that your .444 won't do it with your favorite load. But I gave my son's .444 back to him and I can't check it out.

This really is fun Blaine!

Grizz

"stupid marlin 1:38 twist" ? How old are you?

Here is BTB's load tech sheet on 444 cal up to 405 grains w/.432 HC specific for the stupid 1:38 twist marlin,with stabilized group sizes. As Detective Friday use to say,... " Just the facts lady, just give me the facts!"

The following data was developed using Winchester Large Rifle Primers and Remington Brass Cases in all loads tested and resultant data listed.

.444 Marlin Heavy Cast Bullet Load Development
All Loads Listed Below Developed Utilizing Bullets Of .432" Diameter
Beartooth Bullet Powder Charge Test Gun Ave Vel E.S. S.D. TEMP Group
325g WLNGC H322 49.0 444 S 2153 24.76 11.35 78 F 1.479"
325g WLNGC H322 49.0 444 P 2067 45.04 20.61 78 F 2.832"
325g WLNGC H322 51.0 444 S 2251 39.71 15.81 78 F 1.094"
325g WNGC H322 51.0 444 P 2122 39.81 16.73 78 F 1.189"
325g WLNGC H335 54.0 444 S 2191 62.92 28.87 78 F 1.043"
325g WLNGC H335 54.0 444 P 2057 36.48 13.85 78 F 0.997"
325g WLNGC H335 56.0 444 S 2249 64.15 32.00 78 F 1.343"
325g WLNGC H335 56.0 444 P 2170 38.86 19.51 78 F 1.844"
325g WLNGC AA2015 49.0 444 S 2085 26.87 11.48 72 F 1.646"
325g WLNGC AA2015 49.0 444 P 2060 29.63 15.68 72 F 0.939"
325g LCMNGC H322 49.0 444 S 2201 50.52 24.94 72 F 0.514"
325g LCMNGC H322 49.0 444 P 2072 36.82 18.76 72 F 1.494"
325g LCMNGC H322 51.0 444 S 2284 11.74 8.48 72 F 1.194
325g LCMNGC H322 51.0 444 P 2143 11.41 6.40 72 F .0.868"
325g LCMNGC VARGET 51.0 444S 1976 N/A N/A 84 F 1.254"
325g LCMNGC VARGET 51.0 444P 1829 31.00 15.26 84 F 0.441"
325g LCMNGC VARGET 53.0 444S 2016 9.93 2.44 84 F 1.472"
325g LCMNGC VARGET 53.0 444P 1896 13.18 8.89 84 F 0.541"
325g LCMNGC AA 2015 50.0 444S 2238 72.97 37.72 84 F 0.149"
325g LCMNGC AA 2015 50.0 444P 2130 32.54 16.52 84 F 0.736"
325g LCMNGC AA 2015 52.0 444S 2285 24.79 12.56 84 F 1.108"
325g LCMNGC AA 2015 52.0 444P 2163 56.51 38.28 84 F 2.352"
325g LCMNGC IMR 3031 46.0 444S 2015 64.68 35.00 82 F 1.805"
325g LCMNGC IMR 3031 46.0 444P 1929 71.41 40.70 82 F 1.285"
330g LFNGCDCG H335 54.0 444 S 2176 11.04 6.40 72 F 0.784"
330g LFNGCDCG H335 54.0 444 P 2080 15.91 8.06 72 F 1.886"
330g LFNGCDCG H335 56.0 444 S 2244 3.16 2.29 67 F 0.344"
330g LFNGCDCG H335 56.0 444 P 2080 32.50 16.79 67 F 1.566"
330g LFNGCDCG H322 48.0 444 S 2171 11.63 9.76 67 F 0.339"
330g LFNGCDCG H322 48.0 444 P 2024 31.46 15.22 67 F 1.448"
330g LFNGCDCG H322 50.0 444 S 2204 50.74 25.96 67 F 1.111"
330g LFNGCDCG H322 50.0 444 P 2113 9.67 6.40 67 F 1.969"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 50.0 444 S 1952 57.86 32.04 64 F 3.472"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 50.0 444 P 1806 21.67 11.91 64 F 0.318"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 52.0 444S 2027 7.98 7.64 79 F 1.039"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 52.0 444P 1919 17.84 8.71 79 F 0.924"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 54.0 444S 2100 11.75 8.90 79 F 0.863"
330g LFNGCDCG VARGET 54.0 444P 1977 8.28 9.89 79 F 1.209"
330g LFNGCDCG RL-7 45.0 444 S 2157 42.15 21.00 68 F 1.832"
330g LFNGCDCG RL-7 45.0 444 P 2050 31.52 15.55 68 F 0.555"
330g LFNGCDCG RL-7 47.0 444 S 2190 N/A N/A 68 F 1.786"
330g LFNGCDCG RL-7 47.0 444 P 2007 28.86 14.37 68 F 1.630"
355gWLNGC H322 43.0 444S 1974 10.07 5.29 81 F 0.978"
355gWLNGC H322 43.0 444P 1914 83.17 43.00 81 F 0.914"
355gWLNGC H322 45.0 444S 2034 25.94 13.60 81 F 1.588"
355gWLNGC H322 45.0 444P 1927 33.69 16.79 81 F 1.020"
355gWLNGC RL-7 43.0 444S 2063 39.83 20.09 81 F 0.752"
335gWLNGC RL-7 43.0 444P 1986 16.76 8.60 81 F 1.363"
355gWLNGC RL-7 45.0 444S 2154 61.45 30.99 81 F 0.762"
355gWLNGC RL-7 45.0 444P 2059 19.12 9.89 81 F 1.228"
355gWLNGC VARGET 49.0 444S 1887 50.99 26.34 80 F 0.802"
355gWLNGC VARGET 49.0 444P 1761 16.27 8.18 80 F 0.671"
355gWLNGC VARGET 51.0 444S 1964 73.29 39.35 80 F 1.813"
355gWLNGC VARGET 51.0 444P 1836 17.96 8.30 80 F 0.671"
405gWLNGC RL-7 37.0 444S 1837 N/A N/A 79 F 7.025"
405gWLNGC RL-7 37.0 444P 1794 16.34 8.48 79 F 2.284"
405gWLNGC VARGET 43.0 444S 1771 N/A N/A 79 F 5.942"
405gWLNGC VARGET 43.0 444P 1635 51.42 26.09 79 F 2.604"

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:53 pm

A 1:38 twist is a bit too slow to do a good job of stabilizing heavier bullets over 400 grains. Taking a look at the data provided above, you can see the groups for the 405 grain bullets are beginning to loosen up. The 2 inch plus groups are okay with iron sights, but if those were shot with a scope, that is no great shakes. The 5" and 7" groups are downright bad. Having said that, I would allow that the 444 was not designed with 400 to 500 grain bullets in mind (which is where the 45-70 takes over). I like the 444. In fact, it was the introduction of the Marlin 444 many years ago that first got me seriously considering getting my first levergun. I never did get a 444, being wooed by a Marlin 45-70 instead, but it is an excellent levergun cartridge just the same, at least in my books.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:59 pm

Gosh, guys - don't scare me like that...

I had to go check my .444 Marlin to see what the twist rate was, after all that bad-talk about the 1:38".

Mine is an 'XLR' so the twist is 1:20" - so I can breathe easy...

I haven't shot heavy bullets in it yet, but plan to someday.

Next we need to post about the .45 Colt vs .44 Mag (...again...

)

Jay Bird · Post by **Jay Bird** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:05 pm

If you have to ask, you will never understand.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:06 pm

This reminds me of a very lively discussion that took place about five years ago. Got pretty heated. Can't recall the fanatic's handle anymore. Anyway, I have a soft spot for both the 45-70 and the 444, so I think I'll just get some popcorn, sit back, and watch the free-for-all.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:08 pm

Ok, Lets just settle it here and now!

I will take my itty bitty Ruger#1(all I have had done was in 1993 had its throating lengthened.This is my 405gr HOT LOAD and the velocity "has been verified as true".

56.0 grs of H-4198
Magnum Rifle Primer
Lee Factory Crimp Die
2300 fps and thats out of a 22" barrel

dont try this at home!!!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:16 pm

Ok, Lets just settle it here and now!
I will take my itty bitty Ruger#1(all I have had done was in 1993 had its throating lengthened.This is my 405gr HOT LOAD and the velocity "has been verified as true".

That gives me an idea...

Someone get them a Ruger No. 1 made up in .444 Marlin, so we can have 'identical' guns to compare, and push to the max. I'll watch from a safe distance.

This reminds me of a very lively discussion that took place about five years ago. Got pretty heated. Can't recall the fanatic's handle anymore. Anyway, I have a soft spot for both the 45-70 and the 444, so I think I'll just get some popcorn, sit back, and watch the free-for-all.

Me, too.

Paco says it all, as madman4570 notes in his post:

Paco wrote:Where the 444 excels in better long range drop figures, the 45-70 has more power...it’s a trade off. You the shooter must decide. Personally if I found a levergun that was sweet, fit me well, pointed and carried to suit me...either caliber 444 or 45-70 would make little difference in my buying it. Either one with the right load, will cleanly take any living creature on earth.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:18 pm

With a load like that we need a chronograph set up behind you to clock the velocity of your shoulder!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:29 pm

Come on you guys are being too nice!

You know as I was writing this I am thinking ya,sure like they are impressed.Someone is going to ask and how about when you are backing up "Fast" trying to reload that Ruger Single and not falling down or just start crying/drop the gun and run while wetting yourself

Your 444 can empty your full mag into the critter. Got a point there. No honestly any little carbine shooting a 250gr@almost 2700fps or a 300gr @ 2400-2500fps is to be respected!Remember article below????
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:32 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Next we need to post about the .45 Colt vs .44 Mag (...again... )

madman4570 wrote:Someone is going to ask and how about when you are backing up "Fast" trying to reload that Ruger Single and not falling down or just start crying/drop the gun and run while wetting myself"

Hell, I've been known to do that with a single shot .22...

Mike Rintoul · Post by **Mike Rintoul** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:44 pm

Yeah - why bother (after you shot the Big 5, most of North America's game and been to Europe with yours) when you can shoot a 50 Alaskan in a Marlin or Winchester.

The rain in Texas must be affecting the drinking water.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:46 pm

BRAGGER!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Where the heck is that .32 auto ammo???????

Quit hunting so much

Mike Rintoul · Post by **Mike Rintoul** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 pm

Mr. Madman, I was talking about Joe! What got into his soup? Well it does seem the provokative questions get the most in-depth replies and tend to be some of the longest posts, page wise.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:56 pm

Mike Rintoul wrote:Mr. Madman, I was talking about Joe! What got into his soup? Well it does seem the provokative questions get the most in-depth replies and tend to be some of the longest posts, page wise.

Methinks that is his plan. Stir the pot with an on-topic (at least levergun caliber) thread and watch everyone debate the merits of said cartridge(s), mostly in good humor.

Either that or he's bored and wants something fun to watch while eating popcorn...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:58 pm

Sorry Mike!

I think that Joe still has a lot of kid in him(trouble maker

) and he needs a good spanking!

So, Who is going to spank em??I live to far away!

I better quit and go to bed before I get into trouble more than I am!

Later Guys!

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:12 pm

You know 86er, you are right!!! as a matter of fact I am going to by a 375 Remington Ultra Mag and use it for everything in North America, Powerful and Flat shooting! I can use the wood stocks of my leverguns as firewood this winter, that's all they are good for anyways! LOL

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:18 pm

I would just like to add that those of you who are fanatical proponents/supporters of a 500 + grain bullet in the .45-70 are too dang old, weak, and decrepit to even lift a 500 + grain bullet let alone a completely loaded .45-70 cartridge loaded with a 500 + grain bullet.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:24 pm

Just one more thing. For those of you that like to hunt game behind a fence (inside a fenced area) you don't really need any kind of gun. You can just find some game animal and follow it around all day and keep beating it over it's head with a club until it finally gives up and falls feet up for you to get it over with, slice it's throat, and finally kill it.

Now not to start a fight but I think a 16-ounce ball-peen hammer is vastly superior to any primitive club made out of a tree limb or plant root.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:39 pm

KirkD wrote:A 1:38 twist is a bit too slow to do a good job of stabilizing heavier bullets over 400 grains. Taking a look at the data provided above, you can see the groups for the 405 grain bullets are beginning to loosen up. The 2 inch plus groups are okay with iron sights, but if those were shot with a scope, that is no great shakes. The 5" and 7" groups are downright bad. Having said that, I would allow that the 444 was not designed with 400 to 500 grain bullets in mind (which is where the 45-70 takes over). I like the 444. In fact, it was the introduction of the Marlin 444 many years ago that first got me seriously considering getting my first levergun. I never did get a 444, being wooed by a Marlin 45-70 instead, but it is an excellent levergun cartridge just the same, at least in my books.

This Tech load chart was, obviously, to compare certain loadings to confirm and deny certain powder and bullet conbinations, ... if I am not mistaken. I believe that all calibers have positive and negative loadings. Unless someone wants to claim that all powder and bullet combinations work with the 45/70,... I see no difference between the two calibers.The fantasy that the micro groove with proper .432 bullets will not stabilize is an internet myth, disproved by many writers, loaders, and component merchandisers.

IF THE ONLY THING GOING FOR THE 45/70 COMPARED TO THE 444,... IS A COUPLE OF SLUGS THAT WEIGH MORE THAN 405 GRAINS, I THINK THIS IS REALLY MUCH-A-DO-ABOUT- NOTHING.

Especially since their is nothing in North America that can't be taken with a 265gr. slug.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:44 pm

Especially since their is nothing in North America that can't be taken with a 265gr. slug.

same can be said for a 250g slug, a 225g slug, a 125g slug, etc. I think the expression is reductio ad adsurdum, or something close to that.

you've consistently missed the point of about half the posts on this thread, but it's OK with me 'cause I'm enjoying the show.

I've got a marlin with a 1:38 twist barrel that won't stabilize a 355g or a 325g bullet. So far I've NEVER seen a 405g bullet shot from and stabilized by a 1:38 barrel. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just have never seen it. 1:20 is great for heavy for caliber bullets.

What the paper ballistics says should happen and what actually happens at the business end of the meplat are two entirely different things. I'm just relating what I've done, nothing theoretical about it.

Folks are more than welcome to believe whatever they want. If someone wants to believe that there's no difference between a 500+g bullet and one around half that weight, fine by me. It speaks loudly of inexperience. But it's good for a laugh and another page or two of math and paper ballistics.

I'm still waiting for someone to launch their whiz-bang .444 against some water jugs. Show me the POWER, dude!

bwaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaaaaa

good night Mrs Calabash, wherever you are..,

Grizz

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 am

Grizz wrote:
Especially since their is nothing in North America that can't be taken with a 265gr. slug.
same can be said for a 250g slug, a 225g slug, a 125g slug, etc. I think the expression is reductio ad adsurdum, or something close to that.

you've consistently missed the point of about half the posts on this thread, but it's OK with me 'cause I'm enjoying the show.

I've got a marlin with a 1:38 twist barrel that won't stabilize a 355g or a 325g bullet. So far I've NEVER seen a 405g bullet shot from and stabilized by a 1:38 barrel. I'm not saying it can't happen. Just have never seen it. 1:20 is great for heavy for caliber bullets.

What the paper ballistics says should happen and what actually happens at the business end of the meplat are two entirely different things. I'm just relating what I've done, nothing theoretical about it.

Folks are more than welcome to believe whatever they want. If someone wants to believe that there's no difference between a 500+g bullet and one around half that weight, fine by me. It speaks loudly of inexperience. But it's good for a laugh and another page or two of math and paper ballistics.

I'm still waiting for someone to launch their whiz-bang .444 against some water jugs. Show me the POWER, dude!

bwaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaaaaa

good night Mrs Calabash, wherever you are..,

Grizz

Agreed on slug weight,....I was just speaking for myself. I would not want to go against, even a black bear, with anything smaller than 265 gr..

Please do educate me to what point you think I am missing,... I am always willing to learn. But if it turns out I was aware but just chose to ignore, don't be surprised. Sometimes these threads get real froggy and I would rather circumvent some conflict opinions. I can't understand how anyone can argue one caliber over another, when both are loaded with the same slug, at the same velocity, out of the same length barrel. But , oh well,.... it is entertaining!

As to power, I will see what I can do about getting some jugs together. Posting pics may be another story. I may have to call upon you to accept an e/mail and post them for me. I can't get any pics up at his point. I have posted about "burning through 1/2 inch steel plate at 75 yds",.... but I guess that is insufficient for you?

Contrary to your opinion, I do understand the difference between 500 gr. and 250 gr. bullets. That is why I mentioned the comparison of apples to apples. I.E. 300gr. to 300 gr. or 400gr. to 400 gr. out of both calibers. If the argument is that the 444 can't shoot a 500 gr. slug,.... I agree, I give up, you win!! But if you want to compare same size slugs,... that's another story. Both are equal when compared on an equal level in my opinion. Except for sectional density, where the smaller diameter shines a bit.

Again, please enlighten me to the point I missed?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:35 am

Honest, no frogs here...... But:

Contrary to your opinion, I do understand the difference between 500 gr. and 250 gr. bullets. That is why I mentioned the comparison of apples to apples. I.E. 300gr. to 300 gr. or 400gr. to 400 gr. out of both calibers. If the argument is that the 444 can't shoot a 500 gr. slug,.... I agree, I give up, you win!! But if you want to compare same size slugs,... that's another story. Both are equal when compared on an equal level in my opinion. Except for sectional density, where the smaller diameter shines a bit.

Again, please enlighten me to the point I missed?

NoSir, you hit it right on the head.....You can't fit a 500+ in the .444.......

I might be missing a point, Sir......How can the two EVER be compared on an equal basis, when the 45-70 is and shall be forever and ever, Bigger In All Ways?

When I hunt with my .444 someday, I believe I shall use a 265 grain Hornady and take advantage of it's flatter trajectory. (Which is where your argument should be: Highly effective, and flatter shooting

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:06 pm

flat shooting is highly overrated in my opinion, it's a passing fad.

The following is offered to everyone EXCEPT 76/444, who doesn't wish to be educated.

Here's where my interest in all this comes in. I lived and hunted in Alaska for over thirty years. I lived in a hughly overpopulated tribe of coastal brown bears. Bears known to eat people and anything else they feel like, bears known to TAKE GAME AWAY from hunters who'd shot it. Bears that foraged under my house and smashed my garbage cans whenever they felt like it. Bears that eviscerated large healthy adult deer and ate the guts after breaking the back across a fallen tree. Stuff like that is what informs my choices about bullet throw weights.

I know a lot of people who've killed bears, and some who had to kill them in self defense, and I know what worked for them and what didn't work in some cases.

The 265g bullet referred to isn't a great performer when it hits something solid at point blank range. I had a 275g .338 that was way more energetic than the .44 cal 265, and it turns out that it also isn't ideal for close encounters of the claw and tooth kind. The bullets are too frangible IMO and are less certain of producing a CNS stopper shot than a slow moving large meplat heavy for caliber load.

All of this stuff rolled around my imagination while I was packing venison down a bear trail past a den. When you're armed with a .33 or a .44 and have an animal strapped to your back, you better have a pretty good idea what's gonna happen to the bear AFTER he jumps on you, and how you're going to achieve it. I decided I did NOT want a bullet that might break up before the bear ate my guts so I started doing a lot of penetration testing to find out what exactly does happen to the bullets. I'm satisfied with my choices now. I am totally satisfied THROUGH EXPERIMENTATION that I am better off with a 525g bullet than with a 265 grain one.

So, while a 265g bullet is certainly capable of 'taking' anything in north America, I contend that it is not necessarily capable of 'stopping' everything in north America before it kills you. Plenty of people have been eaten by bears that they've emptied their guns into. My point is that the odds are on the side of the PileDrivers.

If there is some EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that PROVES otherwise I am most interested in seeing it. Otherwise it's ballistic theory against the real world. Last bears I saw weren't looking at the internet, they were sizing me up for lunch.

WAIVER: None of the above is meant to educate anyone who cannot benefit from my experience. It's simply offered to augment those who might learn something or might have their curiosity piqued for a new investigation.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:16 pm

Grizz wrote:flat shooting is highly overrated in my opinion, it's a passing fad.

Amen brother! Preach it! Reminds me of that famous statement, "Flat shootin! ... Flat Shootin! ... We don't need no stinkin' flat shootin'!" ... (or was that badges?)

Real men don't need a flat shootin' iron to hit their target! (Now how's that for fightin' words?).

I just figured I'd pour a bit of coal oil on the campfire before it died down too much.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:19 pm

All depends on far you are shooting.

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:27 pm

I like the post by Grizz. I have relied on the 45-70 when my life, my livelihood and my license were on the line. In spite of several warnings to advance to something like a 338 Win or a 458 Win or whatever more or less I used the 45-70 and I'm still here with ho-hum stories of animals going down. This includes a few charges and a few close encounters with bears, water buffalo and African dangerous game. The bears are softer than the bovine and definitely hippo and elephant so the real heavy cast bullets work very well on them. Personally, since I use my rifle worldwide for anything/everything I rely on 430 -450 grain solid bullets (Punch, Northfork, etc) for stopping a stomping. For bears, I use the 405 grain Kodiak as a first, well placed shot but have a full magazine of the heavy cast or solid bullets to compliment the Kodiak if need arises. Thankfully, there hasn't been a need very often. There are about 3, maybe 4 types of hunting/animals where I would not choose my 45-70 as a first choice hunting rifle and this is mostly due to conditions that dictate a 200 yard plus shot as common and possibly "only". Notice I said as a hunting rifle. There are even less occassions where I would take something other than my 45-70 as a PH rifle. Rogue hippo on land and elephant come to mind. The 450 NE gets the nod here. Buffalo I could go either way on depending on what my client was shooting. Overall, the 45-70 is my most utilized rifle for hunting and as the PH.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:12 pm

KirkD wrote:
Grizz wrote:flat shooting is highly overrated in my opinion, it's a passing fad.
Amen brother! Preach it! Reminds me of that famous statement, "Flat shootin! ... Flat Shootin! ... We don't need no stinkin' flat shootin'!" ... (or was that badges?)

Real men don't need a flat shootin' iron to hit their target! (Now how's that for fightin' words?). I just figured I'd pour a bit of coal oil on the campfire before it died down too much.

Thanks Kirk, I knew you appreciated the humor there 'cause you're smiling!

Thanks 86er, I appreciate your experience. I'm no big game hunter, but I'm glad that you chipped in with some more real-world stuff. Only big thing I'd like to kill now is a bison for the meat. They don't look like they are tough to kill. But they are GOOD EATING!

'night guys, I'm outa here for the afternoon. maybe someone can turn a fan on the embers........

Grizz

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:18 pm

hard cast .444 and 45-70 bullets will both penetrate completely thru a bears skull. the extra bullet weight is wasted, use what u want it don't matter.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:03 pm

I feel better if the bullet not only penetrates the skull, but the rest of the bear too, in the bargain.

Most of us will never have to shoot our way out from under a bear, but out here, the possibility always exists.

For that matter, most of us really never have to shoot at much of anything beyond about 200 yards, so the "flat-shooting" aspect is not terribly important. If it's "attacking" bears you're concerned with, you'll never need to shoot one at more than a dozen yards or so, anyway, and whatever you shoot it with had better STOP it as suddenly as possible.

You're not gonna have much time to react, and get your arsenal into the game.

The .444 is (and always has been) viewed as a "how-come" cartridge in these parts. There is NOTHING it can do that the .45-70 wasn't doing -- and doing better -- already.

It just made the poor benighted Marlin lovers feel a little better about their rifles of choice...

Back to another part of the original question...: The .45-70 vs. .45-90 debate is also a bit of specious palavering. The .45-90 had a twist of 1:32", the better to stabilze 300- and 350-gr. bullets, compared to the .45-70's always-standard 1:20" twist. In Black Powder context, the .45-90 made some sense, as its velocity (with its lighter bullet) was marginally greater than that of the heavy .45-70, but that "usefulness" has been practically done away with, since the advent of smokeless powders. Take a good look at which cartridge survives in greater numbers in today's market.