Why bother with the 45-70?

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:37 pm

Why do shooters keep messin' with this antiquated cartridge? It's rainbow-like trajectory does nothing to help a hunters odds. The Marlin fans can get a rifle in 444 caliber or 450 caliber - both more modern renditions from Marlin with more than enough energy for most all of North America's critters. Winchester fans can get a Timber Carbine in 444 or 450 Marlin too. Oh sure, you can jack up a 45-70 to get a little more velocity than the 450. Who needs it? Do you think the animals can tell the difference between 150 fps more or less? The 444 and 450 are more efficient with less powder. You don't have to worry about whether a 444 or 450 load is a Level I or II or III load, and suitable or not for your rifle. Oh - your 45-70 is an anvil for big game? Why not just use a 458 Win or a 450 N.E. in rifles intended for dangerous game instead of playing the wrong side of the margin with a less reliable lever gun for potential life/death situations? You love your lever gun and like the .458 diameter? Well the 45-90 does everything the 45-70 does better. Real 250 yard usable trajectory with 300 grain bullets at 2550 fps (OOooo, sounds like a 375 H&H). Heavy 450 grain bullets at 2125 fps (can you say 458 Winchester?). 500 + grain lead bullets for steel, targets and game with low pressure and easy on the brass. Show me the 45-70 that can keep up with these figures! Get modern or get real and use something intended for or fully capable of todays hunting and shooting conditions throughout the world.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:41 pm

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:42 pm

Because it is better than the other two. Marlin 1895SS - handy package of power.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:44 pm

Here we go again ...

Joe

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:50 pm

Because you can't get one of those Johny come lately's in one of these.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:57 pm

Cause they don't make either the 444 or 450 in an '86! And since I already have a 45-90 and 45-70 in '86's, it doesn't make sense to have anything else

44

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:59 pm

Trying to stimulate the cortex again, eh, Joe?

I have a 45-90. I also have a 45-70. You can't have either. Neener, neener, neener.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:10 pm

they'll only come to that boy hollerin' wolf so many times.

Whit Spurzon · Post by **Whit Spurzon** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:14 pm

Cuz we ain't got any of those big Texas bulletproof Deer up here.

Of course living in a "blue" state we don't want to upset PETA so we use calibers like 45-70 cuz they just bounce off of Elk without hurting them.

crs · Post by **crs** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:16 pm

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:23 pm

No comment!!!

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:26 pm

Because they don't make a .46-70...

model55 · Post by **model55** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:43 pm

+1 J Reed.Besides would seem a bit odd loading a 444 or 450 Marlin with ffg!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:13 pm

My poor old .45-70 may not be able to take a cotton-tail at point-blank range, but it sure is pretty.

And shoots like this at 200yds. I keep tryin'.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:40 am

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:52 am

I got no use for a .45-70. The Army shoulda stuck with .50-70

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:14 am

Boy oh boy Joe, don't you just like stirring the pot recently!

Jeremy hit it on the head. Because getting a fine old rifle in the ol' "Government" round is simply worth it in and of itself!

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:11 am

What's a 45-70? It's a joke, right?

NOBODY can stuff a .70 caliber bullet in a .45 case!

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:11 am

Old Savage wrote:Because it is better than the other two. Marlin 1895SS - handy package of power.

+1

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:44 am

Troublemaker...!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:52 am

Oh Boy,

I think its because of the guns legacy.This gun has been doing it for what 137 years.When someone grabs one of those guns I think many people take a little of that Historic feeling with them(this was the great buffalo gun)(Spanish-American War)etc.and they still use it in the M32??? Its, its History and whats its done and how we feel carrying it.Same could be said for the 30/30 or .45Colt.How about the .375 H&H??? which honestly never impressed me at all.(300 grains??not that big/2550fps not that fast,for 300 grains???Aint impressed?? (Almost everything I hear being shot with it it takes a few.)Here we Go!

I had one and sold it for a .340 Weatherby which I think is more gun.Honestly if I am going after African Dangerous Game (and dont try my 45-70,more gun than a .375H%H

)here we go! I will use a .460 Weatherby period. Brother has one and Honestly it dont kick that bad/maybe if your a smaller guy?? Anyone who carries a 45-70 is a good ole boy/a true Patriot and God Bless em!

and yes I need a box of tissues.

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:08 am

Cause it's cool! and other than this forum most of the guys I know and at my range have never seen one. Tom

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:17 am

Because they still make ammo.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:19 am

Don't know what part of the Republic you are from 86er but it must be from one of our melting pot mega-cities!

Every rancher I know has at least two leverguns. One chambered in 30-30 and one in 45-70 Govt. There is no why to this! We don't feel the need to justify anything.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:22 am

This could tie in with the other topic about old or forgetten sayings "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:50 am

because this has been takin critters for well over 100 years. !

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:53 am

Pathfinder09 wrote:because this has been takin critters for well over 100 years. !

Amen to that Brother! I got your back! Besides I would have to change my Author Name??

madman375??????

NOT!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:05 am

Looks like somebody hacked into Joe's computer again, pretending to be Joe!

As for me, I like rainbow trajectories, original bullet weights and velocities in ancient cartridges. For that reason, if I had a .45-90, I wouldn't crank it up. Why do people like flatter trajectories? Probably so they can shoot further. Why do they want to shoot further? Why not just sneak up, or figure some way to ambush your game. It's a lot more fun. My boys wonder why I go down to the alfalfa field and spend days or weeks trying to sneak up within iron sight, 32-20 range of one particular groundhog that can see me coming 200 yards away, when I could just get a modern varmint rifle, set up in comfort on my deck, and pick them all off at 400 yards while nursing a coffee. I just shake my head and tell them that it would take all the fun out of it. If it was just about getting rid of groundhogs, I could dump poison down all their holes and be done with it. Now for anyone that is not convinced by this, then forget about the 444 Marlin, the .458 Win Mag or the .460 Rem Mag. Just get yourself a 50 BMG. Why do people shoot those .458 Win Mags anyway, what with their rainbow trajectories and inferior stopping power when the 50 BMG is available?

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:22 am

fordwannabe wrote: and other than this forum most of the guys I know and at my range have never seen one.

Seriously?

2x22

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:27 am

Kirk, I think you are teaching your boys things it will take them years to figure out.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:28 am

adirondakjack wrote:I got no use for a .45-70. The Army shoulda stuck with .50-70

You've got that right. These darn itty-bitty bullets have been going crazy ever since some doofus made the switch from a good cartridge like the .50-70 to the .45-70. They went all crazy after that going to actual .30 caliber cartridges before moving to .224" cartridges! What in heaven's name is wrong with these people? If the .50-70 was good enough for Buffalo Bill and Nelson Story it for sure enough is good for me.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:31 am

KirkD, You are so dead on it makes me want to Hug ya! Also the way you shoot so well you are giving up nothing friend.I totally agree if I wanted to put out a bunch of Deer Lure/maybe some food/and sit in a tree where the poor little critters are helpless and then shoot them with a scoped rifle that I can see their eye lashes with the gun rested on the padded rifle rest,I will stay home and play the Cabelas Trophy Hunter game on my computer.

Your my idol!

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:02 am

Joe, you blasphemeth! 'Sides the 1886 was never offered in .444 or .450M. Those poor modern excuses for replacing the venerable .45-70 can't cut the mustard. In another 100 yrs both will be gone and forgotten, but the old tried and true .45-70 will still be around.

Of course, we are in agreement concerning the other old workhorse. Properly loaded, the .45-90 is a force to be reckoned with.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:05 am

Maybe Hobie is right on - 45/70 is a small bore.

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:17 am

I can give a fairly simple answer. The .45-70 works, it is available almost anywhere, and it is easily reloaded with components available to almost anyone in almost any state. The .450 and .444 are cartridges I have trouble obtaining where I live, and the .458 is one that makes many clerks behind the counter look crosseyed when I ask for it. Can you find fault with my arguments?
If the .45-70 has such a bad trajectory, then why is it that so many shooters know how to make it hit at such long ranges. I am talking 1,000 yards and more. Heck, even the .308 with its fairly high speed bullet out of the M60 has a rainbow trajectory at the 1100 meter targets that we used to shoot at. I always hit the target, but used a 6 round burst to do it. Many .45-70 rifles will hit it with one shot. How much better can anyone ask for?
Joe, if I hadn't shot your '86 and didn't know that you love that rifle, I might think that you are serious about saying the .45-70 is not as good as many other cartridges. If you really don't like the .45-70 anymore, I'll give you a couple hundred bucks to take that '86 off your hands.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:18 am

I wouldn't mind getting an old Springfield 50-70.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:25 am

Oh Heck Joe, I am still buying your book! "Pal"

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:25 am

KirkD wrote:I wouldn't mind getting an old Springfield 50-70.

I have been considering a .50-70 in a Shiloh Sharps for years but really started dreaming of the cartridge after reading about Nelson Story.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:46 am

JReed wrote:Because you can get one of those Johny come lately's in one of these.

+1

and because the 45-70 almost always equates to a lever action rifle in the minds of most guys AND this is a levergun forum. Besides, the .45-70 will handle any animal on this planet.

EDIT:

86er - Ya gotta be more careful how you insult people!! You said:

""The Marlin fans can get a rifle in 444 caliber or 450 caliber - both more modern renditions from Marlin with more than enough energy for most all of North America's critters.""

The .444 and .450 have more than enough umph to handle ANY animal found in North America and loaded with the right bullet and powder will again with enough umph handle any animal found on this planet.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:15 am

I dunno Joe, if any one else spoke like that on here they would get kicked off

As KD said,,,, I mean why do some folk use piddly self bows to hunt with when they can have more effective modern bows? Because more ain't allways better thats why!

Any way on a hi jacking question, does any one know if ScotT got his 50-70?

Nath.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:58 am

WHY "BOTHER...?"

B E C A U S E.......!

I don't have to justify that to ANYONE...

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:53 pm

Mike D. wrote:Joe, you blasphemeth! 'Sides the 1886 was never offered in .444 or .450M. Those poor modern excuses for replacing the venerable .45-70 can't cut the mustard. In another 100 yrs both will be gone and forgotten, but the old tried and true .45-70 will still be around.

Of course, we are in agreement concerning the other old workhorse. Properly loaded, the .45-90 is a force to be reckoned with.

Actually the historical 444 predates the adoption of the 45/70.......................

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

"Starting in 1872, the Ordnance Department started conducting a series of tests in which they were evaluating a variety of centerfire black powder cartridges for possible adoption as the new military rifle round. Basically they were comparing straight-tapered cases to bottle-necked cases, in calibers from .40 through .45, with lead bullets weighing from 290 to 484 grains. A tremendous amount of shooting was performed, mapping the various trajectories, group sizes, penetration and wind drift out past 1000 yards. This work was summarized in the "Report of a Board of Ordnance Officers Convened Under Special Orders No. 107, Dated Adjutant General's Office, May 7, 1872, For the Purpose of Determining the Proper Caliber for Small Arms" (how's that for a title?), published in 1873. Ultimately, this research led to the adoption of the .45-70 as the standard cartridge for the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield rifle. However, it's interesting to note that as a part of this evaluation, the Ordnance Officers developed a cartridge (test fired in "Gun Number 15") with a straight-tapered 2.3" rimmed case, with a .430" diameter 365 grain bullet, that bore a remarkable resemblance to what would later be called the ".444 Marlin", differing only a few thousandths in certain key dimensions. While some have described the .444 Marlin as "a modern .45-70", the historical record shows that the basic concept behind the case design actually predates the adoption of the .45-70 as the official military cartridge!"

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:11 pm

And the .458 won over the .429 back then, too

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:39 pm

Old Savage wrote:Maybe Hobie is right on - 45/70 is a small bore.

Correct:
"In days past, "small-bore" referred to any calibre significantly less than .577" -

From:
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/index-31.html#

SmokeEater2 · Post by **SmokeEater2** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Old Savage wrote:Because it is better than the other two. Marlin 1895SS - handy package of power.

Yeah! What Old Savage said!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Old Savage wrote:Maybe Hobie is right on - 45/70 is a small bore.

yeah, right as rain. who in his right mind would want a smaller bore than that?

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:24 pm

BlaineG wrote:And the .458 won over the .429 back then, too

And maybe there was just as much political, and, or, private business lobbying back then, that effected weapon contracts,... as much as today,... or maybe even more?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:40 pm

76/444 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:And the .458 won over the .429 back then, too
And maybe there was just as much political, and, or, private business lobbying back then, that effected weapon contracts,... as much as today,... or maybe even more?

I have several 45-70s and a .444........I can't see not having at least one of each.....I mean, after you're thru shooting buffs and elephants and stuff with the 45-70, you're still gonna need a squill gun

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:48 am

BlaineG wrote:
76/444 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:And the .458 won over the .429 back then, too
And maybe there was just as much political, and, or, private business lobbying back then, that effected weapon contracts,... as much as today,... or maybe even more?
I have several 45-70s and a .444........I can't see not having at least one of each.....I mean, after you're thru shooting buffs and elephants and stuff with the 45-70, you're still gonna need a squill gun

That SQUARELY hits the nail on the head. The Army was pressed for cash coming out of the late unpleasentness between the states, and Springfield was their pet as they had done the conversions of muskets and had tons of the trapdoor actions. Springfield went with the .45, while Remington favored the .50 (which predates it) in the much stronger rolling block. Only NYS stayed with the .50, as Remmie was a NY concern, but nearly the rest of the world went with the rolling block, and many of those were 50s.
It should be noted that More buffalo were taken with 50-70 than any other round, largely due to the availability of cheap or even free ammo available as surplus.

The only thing the .45 did a LITTLE better than the fifty was hit a huge target at TWO MILES, a feat never used in combat, but it made for impressive junk science at Sandy Hook.

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:25 am

As I have posted on another thread here, I am a strong believer in loading a caliber up to as close to its full potential as possible. I believe that all calibers should be shot with their heaviest projectile and as heavy a powder charge as the shooter can handle,... except for .22's..

Following that train of thought,... if I owned a 45/70, and loaded it accordingly, there would be nothing else on the market that would hold a candle to it in the power dept., in my opinion (except in trajectory specs) for very specific use.

But, in reality, most of the 45/70 shooters I have talked with down load for comfort. Which, in my opinion, defeats the need for a 45/70. If a particular caliber hurts too much to shoot at a comfort level that affords good consistent accuracy,.... I personally don't have a lot of use for it.

I would not have a 45/70 and load it down to a lesser caliber? I would rather have a lesser caliber and load it up to it's peak performance level? I like to shoot what I own without flinching at the thought of using it before I even take it out of the safe. For me, the 444 fits that bill. I like shooting it, all day long, without the side effects of something with more power than I personally will never need. On my last outing with the 444, I was burning through 1/2 steel plate at 75 yards,.... what more do I need?

This subject is always interesting to me,.... especially when documented facts are presented, compared to gut feelings.