OT-Lilgun and problems.

[Kansas Ed]

A few months ago, I picked up a pound of Lilgun to try...especially in the Hornet, and debated using it in a couple of other calibers llike the 38-40 and 45LC. But now I'm scared to even try it because of the posts linked below. Especially considering what Bob Baker had to say about it and the tests they've run on it....so now what....dump it in the yard? It certainly won't go in any of my handguns now, and probably won't go in my rifles either. So for those of you who weren't aware of this condition make your own judgements on the following information. Maybe someone local reloads .410 I can give it to.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/ ... 437.0.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61522

Ed

[L_Kilkenny]

It's strange that you bring this up. It also worries me a bit. If you look back a page or so you'll see a post I did on pressure vs. velocity. I had major pressure issues using Lil'gun and MAG primers. I was putting most of the blame on the MAG primers. But someone else brought up pressure issues and full cases. After reading the links you posted I'm seriously considering pulling the 100gr XTP's (.32H&R, glad I didn't crimp) I have loaded up in front of Lil'gun, dump the powder, resize without decapping and load up some thing else. I have a 4lbs jug of Lil'gun that might sit for a long spell. I bought it off a buddy who received it with a bunch of shotgun reloading stuff and I only paid $20 for it so I'm not out much. Will I dump it? No, might NEED it someday.

I only fire 12 rounds thru this gun so far with the Lil'Gun reloads and didn't notice excess heat at all. Then again, I shot it and shoved it back in the holster. Wasn't looking for problems.

LK

[Hobie]

Well, I hesitate to call out Mr. Baker or others. I've neither the lab facilities nor the anecdotal evidence to dispute their claims. I can only know what I've experienced.

Lil'Gun seems to work just fine in my .357 Max and .357 Mag rifles. I've had no problems in the .22 Hornet, .218 Bee or .41 Mag rifles either. I don't always use mag primers, in fact, I use standard small pistol primers in the .22 Hornet. I wonder if there is some sort of "jet" or venturi effect in the gas column moving from the cylinder to the forcing cone on revolvers. I know that lots of people use Lil'Gun and don't seem to have (perhaps don't notice?) problems. We don't know what bullet weights and charges they are using either. In the straight revolver rounds it seems to me that Lil'Gun's best ballistic performance is with bullets at the upper end of weight for that caliber/cartridge.

Now I have to note that all the guns in which I use it are SINGLE-SHOTS although I did fire 6 rounds of Lil'Gun charged loads from my Speed-Six.

I think I will continue to use it in my single-shots.

[CowboyTutt]

I've been using it for years in my 454 Puma and 454 Raging Bull. I have noticed that the rifle gets very hot but I give it a chance to cool down between shots as with all my rifles. Sounds like I do need to do a visual inspection of the barrels and forcing cones though. Thanks for passing on the info, Ed.

-Tutt

[Tycer]

I only use it in rifles. 357 and 32-20.

The 16" Win 94 after five shots of 17.5 grains LG under 207 grain cast plain base hard cast and mag primer seated to 1.850" heats the barrel to within 3" of the muzzle. Not too hot to touch, but hot.

I've never shot it in my revolvers. Won't now, but I'll continue to use it in the rifles.

[L_Kilkenny]

Keep in mind, I wouldn't stop using Lil'Gun solely based on the 2 links provided. If I wasn't already seeing possible issues like flattened primers with a load 10% under starting I may not think anything about it. Maybe it's the powder or maybe it's the MAG primers, but the links and my personal experience combined lead me to believe that there are better options. IIRC, In my .32 Mag, Unique will get me to within 50 fps of Lil'Gun and Titegroup within 150 fps. Both will require far far less powder per case. As for my .357, I'd like to try Unique but I'm getting such great accuracy in my hottish 180gr XTP BlueDot loads that I don't know if I ever will.

LK

[Don McDowell]

When Hogdons first introduced Lilgun I wrote them about different uses for it I had in mind.
They told me then it needed to be used just like H110, but was quite as case volume sensitive but still needed to be 90% load density, and they did not recommend its use with cast bullets unless those bullets were gas checked.
I shot a couple of pounds of the stuff, still have part of the 3rd pound. It will make a 357 sizzle, and I loaded a bit under their recommended start load for the 45 colt at the time with some smoked cases, but excellent accuracy. I could not get it to achieve the accuracy and velocity in the 41 that was supposed to be it's stellar point.
If I were loading the 38-40 in a rifle or a Ruger I wouldn't sweat it abit.
The cast bullets thread is almost incomprehensable,(often happens over there) Did not read the other one, but I'm going to throw the BS flag anyway, as it sort of smacks to me of the same flavor as the Mossberg thread here a while back. Someone senslessy abuses the stuff out of a firearm, and then starts whining cuz it broke.....

Use lilgun the way Hogdons recommends and enjoy it. Stray into some of the internet recommended uses, and take the consequences.

[BigSky56]

So only FA is having problems with cones and bbls not rugers or TC sounds like FA needs to check their quality control, any of the ball powders can cause strap cutting and erode the cones and bbls I dont shoot my guns as fast as I can pull the trigger unless something is trying to hurt me, a person abuses a gun then whines when it breaks. Lilgun has a appeal that it gives as good or better velocity than 110-296 with less psi. danny

[marlin shooter]

My Marlin 1894 .41 mag loves LILGUN, I don't use a max load and just use large pistol primers. I have had no problems that I can tell. It is accurate and fast enough that I have never upped the charge. I'll keep using it.
Karl

[Hobie]

Keep in mind, I wouldn't stop using Lil'Gun solely based on the 2 links provided. If I wasn't already seeing possible issues like flattened primers with a load 10% under starting I may not think anything about it. Maybe it's the powder or maybe it's the MAG primers, but the links and my personal experience combined lead me to believe that there are better options. IIRC, In my .32 Mag, Unique will get me to within 50 fps of Lil'Gun and Titegroup within 150 fps. Both will require far far less powder per case. As for my .357, I'd like to try Unique but I'm getting such great accuracy in my hottish 180gr XTP BlueDot loads that I don't know if I ever will.

LK

I've never had your issues. There was a recalled lot, you don't happen to have that, do you?

[meanc]

I've got 3lbs left out of an 8lb purchase.

7000gr/18gr = 388rds x 5 = 1940rds


So, that's appx. 1940rds of 158gr JSP that have made it down the barrels of my Ruger Blackhawks and Win94 Trappers. All in the past 3yrs.

I just looked at all 4 barrels, comparing the condition/depth/length of the forcing cones with a couple of unfired 357mags (ruger/Win94)

I've got a pretty keen eye and couldn't tell one iota of difference between any of the barrels

[L_Kilkenny]

Keep in mind, I wouldn't stop using Lil'Gun solely based on the 2 links provided. If I wasn't already seeing possible issues like flattened primers with a load 10% under starting I may not think anything about it. Maybe it's the powder or maybe it's the MAG primers, but the links and my personal experience combined lead me to believe that there are better options. IIRC, In my .32 Mag, Unique will get me to within 50 fps of Lil'Gun and Titegroup within 150 fps. Both will require far far less powder per case. As for my .357, I'd like to try Unique but I'm getting such great accuracy in my hottish 180gr XTP BlueDot loads that I don't know if I ever will.

LK

I've never had your issues. There was a recalled lot, you don't happen to have that, do you?

I couldn't find the Lot# but I did look around on google nad it appears that only 1# jugs were recalled, this is a 4#er. Did you read my other post where I had the pressure issues? Would the mag primers have caused this?

LK

[OI phones in...]

I'm not worried about it. My LilGun loads are not "daily shooters". They are for Thumping only, whether out of the Rifle or SP101.

GP shooting is 158gr cast & N340.

[Hobie]

Keep in mind, I wouldn't stop using Lil'Gun solely based on the 2 links provided. If I wasn't already seeing possible issues like flattened primers with a load 10% under starting I may not think anything about it. Maybe it's the powder or maybe it's the MAG primers, but the links and my personal experience combined lead me to believe that there are better options. IIRC, In my .32 Mag, Unique will get me to within 50 fps of Lil'Gun and Titegroup within 150 fps. Both will require far far less powder per case. As for my .357, I'd like to try Unique but I'm getting such great accuracy in my hottish 180gr XTP BlueDot loads that I don't know if I ever will.

LK

I've never had your issues. There was a recalled lot, you don't happen to have that, do you?

I couldn't find the Lot# but I did look around on google nad it appears that only 1# jugs were recalled, this is a 4#er. Did you read my other post where I had the pressure issues? Would the mag primers have caused this?

LK

Not in my experience but I can't recall the details. It wasn't in this topic, was it? I just took Mom out for birthday pie and I must have caught a bit of confusion... Help a feller out, would you, and recount the details...

[CowboyTutt]

I confess I'm a little concerned about using this in my S&W 460 ES snubbie just because I'm using so much of it (40+ grains) but so far so good. Who doesn't set their gun down when the barrel gets hot?

-Tutt

[GARYV]

Lil gun is a strange powder. In some cases it acts a lot like 296 & h110 - reduced loads seem to generate over pressure conditions. It seems the lighter the bullet, the more pronounced the effect. I have quit using lil gun and switched to h4227 for that very reason and the heat produced in the chamber/forcing cone. Get uncomfortable when things become unpredictible with reloads. Also, accelerated forcing cone wear has been reported in big bore/high vel. revolvers. ymmv! just my $0.02 worth.

Good shooting!
gary

[Lobo]

Hi All,

I just downloaded Hodgdon's suggested Lil Gun load data for my Ruger 45 Colt. They used Win Large Pistol primers in their loads. Perhaps someone can prevail on them to comment on mag primers???

[L_Kilkenny]

Not in my experience but I can't recall the details. It wasn't in this topic, was it? I just took Mom out for birthday pie and I must have caught a bit of confusion... Help a feller out, would you, and recount the details...

LOL, it's my goal to leave as many folks in the dark as I can. Too bad I choose to be an electrician

Here's the short version:

Starting load, 1 round: 100gr XTP, hodgdon starting load of 10grs Lil'Gun (11grs listed max), Fed SP Mag Primer, no crimp. Flatened primer, deformed and flattened case head. Very ugly.

Load 2, 1 round: same as above buy with 9grs of Lil'gun. That's 10% below recommended starting load. Flattened primer buit fine on the case head.

Out of a .32M Single Six.

LK

[CowboyTutt]

LK, from what I'm reading here, there seems to be a connection between magnum primers and Lil'Gun in terms of high pressure and/or heat conditions. Secondly, have you compared your Hodgdon data with other manuals? I find the Hodgdon data to be on the "warm to hot side" when compared to other manuals. Thirdly, if your guns tolerances are tight (or maybe even too tight) that could also raise pressures dramatically. Ruger had terrible trouble with undersized 45 Colt chambers in the cylinder that raised pressures. My 454 loads in my Taurus RB are way to hot in my friend's Magnum Research BFR as his gun's tolerances are so much tighter (we measured it). Its hard to know what is happening with so many variables.

-Tutt

[Kansas Ed]

As for FA's quality control which was questioned above, I wouldn't even begin to question it. And even so, it would be the material supplier who supplies the steel stock who would be at fault, not FA. But knowing Bob Baker and working for him for 8 years you can count on taking him at his word...always. Pretty much a straight shooter.

As far as the time between shots, aren't some revolver games timed? Even so, Bob said in his post that H110 and IIRC 296 were tried first without issue, but the issue came on with Lilgun using the same barrel which had been rethreaded. I don't know what to make of it, but the whole thing has me reluctant to working up loads with this powder. I suppose that if I had a problem gun which I was at wits end with and Lilgun seemed to be the only option, maybe I would try it, but when there are so many other good powders out there which do approximately the same ballistics...what's the point in taking the chance?

Ed

[CowboyTutt]

As for FA's quality control which was questioned above, I wouldn't even begin to question it. And even so, it would be the material supplier who supplies the steel stock who would be at fault, not FA. But knowing Bob Baker and working for him for 8 years you can count on taking him at his word...always. Pretty much a straight shooter.

No arguements from me there, Ed! I totally agree. Lets look at this a little differently and how various components react together. H110 is famous for needing a dense loading and very hot primer to function at its best, thus the recommended Rem 7 1/2 primer for the 454 which is a very hot one. Lil'Gun was designed to not be as sensitive to the same parameters of H110 if I remember right. If Lil'Gun is a hot powder, and your still using a hot (maybe mag) primer, then your adding a hot primer onto a hot powder.

I've been using a CCI BR-4 primer in my 454 loads which has more brisance (pop) than heat. Maybe that's why it has (maybe)worked OK for me so far (checks pending of my rifles). I also don't let my guns get too hot! Winchester has pretty much eliminated their magnum primers as their standard primers are very hot.

I think there is still room for discussion here.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I just want to say that I think that Bob is a wonderful human being, and a true gentleman. But he's very conservative in his interpretation of events relating to firearms and how he builds them. I think he takes the "worst case scenario" and builds his guns accordingly. But I still think more discussion is in order here regarding the use of Lil'Gun powder. Just my .02 cents, adjusted for inflation.

-Tutt

[PaulB]

Gee,I hate to read this stuff since I use Lil Gun a lot. Never had any problem with it that I know of, but don't shoot vast numbers of max loads either. I like that it burns clean even with a starting load, unlike H110 or 296.

[Hobie]

Not in my experience but I can't recall the details. It wasn't in this topic, was it? I just took Mom out for birthday pie and I must have caught a bit of confusion... Help a feller out, would you, and recount the details...

LOL, it's my goal to leave as many folks in the dark as I can. Too bad I choose to be an electrician

Here's the short version:

Starting load, 1 round: 100gr XTP, hodgdon starting load of 10grs Lil'Gun (11grs listed max), Fed SP Mag Primer, no crimp. Flatened primer, deformed and flattened case head. Very ugly.

Load 2, 1 round: same as above buy with 9grs of Lil'gun. That's 10% below recommended starting load. Flattened primer buit fine on the case head.

Out of a .32M Single Six.

LK

That's not my experience in my Single-Six .32 H&R and I used CCI mag pistol primers as well as the standards. Obviously not suited to YOUR gun. Did you chronograph those loads?

[Grizz]

Wowsers.

I don't do rapid-fire but I've shot a couple hundred 185g gs cast bullets over LilGun from a 16" 1894 and a 2" J-frame with no obvious problems. But I'm on the lookout now for a new powder. I was jazzed about the published lower pressures and never noticed the bbq effect. But I don't want to either.

Grizz

[L_Kilkenny]

That's not my experience in my Single-Six .32 H&R and I used CCI mag pistol primers as well as the standards. Obviously not suited to YOUR gun. Did you chronograph those loads?

To tell the truth, I didn't ever notice any pressure issues with my previous .32M Single Six (see this http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=18317). This gun is the replacement and prior to this week had only had 50 rounds of cast plinkin loads thru it. But then I had never used MAG primers in it. Like you said, obviously "this gun" don't like something about the combo. Doesn't help that I'm a little gun shy (ok, maybe more than a little) after the last fiasco with the gun I sent in to Ruger. After all, I had used Lil'gun in the prevoius gun and Ruger never did tell me what the cause was for replacement.

LK

[Hobie]

I don't like to run scared. Lil'Gun has undergone quite a bit of testing. Dan Wesson did some development work in their cartridges and the Supermags and I can find no mention of such problems. As I said, I don't see reports from others on problems with Lil'Gun and haven't seen problems with it myself.

Mag primers. Well, now, Winchester primers (and others) aren't the same as the primers mentioned in the loading manuals (depending on which manual you're using). I've used CCI brand exclusively (with a few experimental exceptions) with no problems. I've used magnum primers when indicated but have sometimes found that they aren't needed, will give more consistent velocities (and presumably pressures) with some loads and not others. In fact I use small pistol primers with 13 gr. of Lil'Gun in the .22 Hornet but magnum primers with 15 gr. Lil'Gun in the .357 Magnum.

Every gun differs in particulars from every other gun, even from those with serials on either side of it in manufacturing. In a revolver you might find a path to improvement in an examination of the chambers, throats and forcing cone. The 100 gr. bullet is on the heavy side for the .32 H&R and I imagine that it bridges the gap longer than the shorter 85-90 gr. bullets which might mean that the big difference is in your forcing cone. Re-cutting the forcing cone MIGHT moderate pressures in your gun and improve performance. Just a thought.

[Hobie]

That's not my experience in my Single-Six .32 H&R and I used CCI mag pistol primers as well as the standards. Obviously not suited to YOUR gun. Did you chronograph those loads?

To tell the truth, I didn't ever notice any pressure issues with my previous .32M Single Six (see this http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=18317). This gun is the replacement and prior to this week had only had 50 rounds of cast plinkin loads thru it. But then I had never used MAG primers in it. Like you said, obviously "this gun" don't like something about the combo. Doesn't help that I'm a little gun shy (ok, maybe more than a little) after the last fiasco with the gun I sent in to Ruger. After all, I had used Lil'gun in the prevoius gun and Ruger never did tell me what the cause was for replacement.

LK

What was the problem with that first Single-Six?

[L_Kilkenny]

What was the problem with that first Single-Six?

Well, it when in for a broken front site. Was quoted 4 weeks for repair (maybe 6 weeks, I've slept since then). After 3-4 months I finally was told it was repaired and was being sent to the range for testing. Couple weeks later I was told it had failed testing and needed to be distroyed/replaced. No further word from Ruger on what was wrong.

LK

[Hobie]

What was the problem with that first Single-Six?

Well, it when in for a broken front site. Was quoted 4 weeks for repair (maybe 6 weeks, I've slept since then). After 3-4 months I finally was told it was repaired and was being sent to the range for testing. Couple weeks later I was told it had failed testing and needed to be distroyed/replaced. No further word from Ruger on what was wrong.

LK

I don't think I'll be sending anything back to Ruger...

[CowboyTutt]

I'm not sure if any manufacturer tells the customer what is wrong in these cases. I had a Taurus Raging Bull that I sent back to the gunsmith who had last worked on it. He called to tell me what was wrong and sent it back to the factory. If I had not called Taurus, they would not have even told me what they planned to do or why until they sent me a new gun. As is, I had them hand-pick my replacement and throw-in a free scope mount which they did. They sent the replacement back to the gunsmith who tuned the new gun and said "this one is a different animal". Its been a fantastic handgun for me. But if not for gunsmith involvement, I would have not even known what the problem was.

-Tutt