What to buy(30-30,45-70, 444..)

[348WCF]

I went down to my local shop and am trying to decide on which Marlin levergun to buy. I have never owned a Marlin before(I have several Winchesters and Brownings). They have a 336 in 30-30, and one in 35 Remington, had a 444XLR, and an 1895 45-70 with 22 inch barrel, and one in the Guide gun configuration, and last but not least, a 444. I am not partial to any particular one of these calibers and would love to have the feedback of the folks on this forum as to what my first Marlin ought to be and why.
Thanks in advance,
Jim

[Doc Hudson]

If you have a .30-30, get the .45-70. if you don't have a .30-30, you need one.

I have mixed feelings about the .35 Rem. Nothing really against it, but nothing really for it. I do notice that folks who own .35 Remingtons generally swear by them.

I might be selling it short, but I don't think much of the .444 Marlin. Things might be different now, but in times past, the cartridge was loaded with pistol bullets and they didn't stand up well to the additional velocity. But lots of things have happened to bullet designs and that might no longer be the case.

Iffen it were my greenbacks hitting the counter, I'd buy the Guide Gun. IMNSHO, that little rascal is the niftiest combination of great power, portability, and slick handling around.

[Buck Elliott]

Pick one; buy it. Pick another one; buy it; Pick another one; buy it... &c., &c., &c......

That's how it goes for almost all of us on this board.

[Hobie]

Get whatever they have without the crossbolt safety. Otherwise it is a toss-up as all are good.

[Old Savage]

What do you want it for. Pick the nicest example fit and finish and function wise.

[76/444]

What are you going to hunt, in what kind of country, at what distances?

[O.S.O.K.]

Chances are you don't have a 35 Rem. Buy a Marlin chambered for 35 Rem - its a great cartridge.

But if you don't have a 45-70 yet, that's probably a more different caliber than what else you have and I'd go with that then.

[348WCF]

76/444: Mostly it will be used for whitetail and black bear here in Maine.
Hobie: These are all new marlins and they all have the crossbolt safety. Is that something I should stay away from? I was brought up that there is no substitute for proper gun handling, but I understand why they put these foolish safeties with all of the lawsuits today. if there have been issues with them i would appreciate a heads up.

Doc Hudson: I do not have a 30-30 and have been really leaning in that direction, as i have an 86 in 45-70. The 35 is popular up this way and every one I know that uses it, swears by them, as you said.
I looked at them for about an hour and a half, and finally left because i think the poor guy behind the counter was frustrated with all my questions

[AJMD429]

All of them are good rounds, and nothing wrong with any of them. You could simply select whichever one is needed to fill a ballistic niche (i.e. you don't have a .30-30, so the .30-30 or .35 Rem would do that), or duplicate one you want 'more' of (i.e. if you like .45-70's and want to minimize extra brass to inventory, just get another .45-70). However, the UNIQUE round to the Marlins is of course the .444 Marlin, which these days has ALOT to offer; here's some good articles on it.

.444 Marlin Myths - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

.444 and MicroGroove barrels - http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

If you want newfangled, slick, and shiny, the XLR version probably squeezes the most accuracy out of the box (I don't think the gummy-tip ammo is at all needed for that, either), but if you want blued-and-walnut tradition, the regular .444 Marlins are pretty solid performers.

I like my XLR and its other ".429 buddies" -

The gun isn't that big, compared to the 1894 SS in .44 Magnum, but packs one heck of a punch. Here's a fast 5-shot 50-yard group with factory loads. Not much movement with barrel heat-up.



Fryxell's article above goes into more on how you CAN use heavy bullets in the .444's, despite claims to the contrary.

One OTHER thing on the 'pistol bullet' thing - if you're using the .444 Marlin at the extended ranges for which it is designed (150-250 yards), the 'fragile little pistol bullet' is probably going about the same 1800 fps it is close to the muzzle of a .44 Magnum rifle, so it will pretty much make the same through-and-through hole, bleeding at both ends, that it makes in animals with the lesser powered round close up.

[Thunder50]

If you handload, the 35Rem can do many things. From pistol bullets, to heavier slugs. If you don't handload, then I would go with with 45-70

[TedH]

Even though you say you don't have a 30-30, which every levergunner should own at least one, I'm going to say get the 35 Rem. It would have a slight edge over the 30-30 should you run into a nice big bear to take. If you were only after deer I'd say the 30-30. Since you already have a 45-70, the 444 wouldn't be my choice since they are fairly close in performance. But there is just something about a 45-70 in the Guide Gun. Lots of smack coming from such a handy package.

[Old Savage]

The safeties are fine - just some people don't like them - I have both and it make little difference to me. One fellow here did a lot of bullet expansion tests - might have been Jason and Remington Corelokts in 200 gr did exceedingly well. I would think they would be a great thing in the Maine woods.

[JohndeFresno]

Here is my take. Given that all rifles are equal or nearly equal in quality and features, here are 5 points to ponder:
1) The .444 is nice, but the .45-70 is a step beyond that in power for short range use. And there are more usable .45-70 loads and recipes for handloads.

3) The .30's have a bit more useful hunting range for deer in a variety of loadings than the larger caliber.

4) What do most folks in your region hunt deer with - .35 or .30-30? That gives you some ideas on what ammunition - and brass if you reload - will be most available in your area. Here in California, the .30-30 wins hands down, although the .35 is undeniably a great deer round.

5) Nobody that I personally know would want to get rid of their levergun .30-30, unless they have another one as well.

6) Ammo is much cheaper for the .30's. And although I have never purchased the .35, I'm guessing that .30-30 rounds are the least expensive of all of the choices offered.

I suspect that .30-30 ammunition will always be more plentiful across the United States, given all that has gone on with folks trying to limit our ammunition and guns. So .30-30 would be my personal choice, if I had to choose just one of the above.

If I were in your boots, I'd go with either the .30-30 or .35 for deer sized game - whichever caliber is the most favored by the seasoned hunters in my region. I don't believe in the lemming principle, but there is usually a good reason why experienced hunters in any region prefer one load over the others for the designated game. I seem to think that the .35 is a little more popular than the .30 in your part of the country.

Then, after your purchase, get all of the others, one at a time - 'cuz they ALL are cool!

Now, if I could just figure out why I keep getting 6 points above instead of 5....

[.45colt]

Last spring I bought the 1895 22" 45-70.and it's not hard to see why it is so popular. ammo is available,it is easy to reload to any sane level. I bought a sling from Marlin and a Williams FP reciver sight that took ten minutes to mount. . it is a great shooter.

[76/444]

76/444: Mostly it will be used for whitetail and black bear here in Maine.
Hobie: These are all new marlins and they all have the crossbolt safety. Is that something I should stay away from? I was brought up that there is no substitute for proper gun handling, but I understand why they put these foolish safeties with all of the lawsuits today. if there have been issues with them i would appreciate a heads up.

Doc Hudson: I do not have a 30-30 and have been really leaning in that direction, as i have an 86 in 45-70. The 35 is popular up this way and every one I know that uses it, swears by them, as you said.
I looked at them for about an hour and a half, and finally left because i think the poor guy behind the counter was frustrated with all my questions

Well,... when I lived two miles up a mountain into thousands of acres of a wood companies private forest in central Maine, I never saw a bear in 5&1/2 years. Of course I never looked for them or hunted them,... moose, yes,... deer, plenty,... but if bear is your thing I would consider the 444 or 45/70. Not that the others won't do the job, its just that these two will do it so much better in my opinion.

Now, I went to the 444 from 44mag in my levers, for base camp bear protection, NOT because the 44mag carbine would not do the job,.... but, like I said, the 444 will just do it sooooooo much better!!!

Since you already have a 45/70, I see no need to move on to anything else. It can be loaded down or up, according to your personal level of recoil and do everything the 30/30, or the 35 can do and do it better. You may just want to think about taking the money you have set aside for a new weapon and invest in customizing your 45/70. Such as,... if it is not a short barreled brush configuration, get it chopped. If your don't like the ergonomics, get it hand carved to your liking, if you don't like factory loads, invest in some reloading supplies. There is nothing you could possible want to do that the 45/70 can't do!! If you want to be practical? If not, then choosing another weapon by caliber is meaningless, to me.

As to the cross bolt safety,... as said, nothing wrong with it, it is just that some folks don't like them. I do find myself having some problems when I switch from 444 without a safety to my 44mag which has the cross bolt safety. I would forget it was engaged sometimes, not that big a deal target shooting.

But now, as I have suggested to you,.... I realize there is nothing the 44mag can do that the 444 can't do better so it stays home when I hit the mountains! Except for being cheaper to target shoot, with less recoil. But I cut my 444 barrel down to 16.5", carved the stock to my personal specifications and weight, so it is as quick handling as my 44mag carbine. I have little use in carrying the 44mag anymore.


just one man's opinion.

[jlchucker]

Don't worry about the Marlin crossbolt safety. It's not as ugly as some of the ones the now-defunct Winchester company put on theirs. It's hardly noticeable, and you can just leave it in the "off" position and still use the gun with the half-cock method--like real levergun people not influenced by ambulance-chasing lawyers do. That having been said, there's still something to say about that Marlin safety that can consider as positive. If it's put in the "on" position when emptying live rounds from your rifle, a person would be just a bit safer from accidental discharges when unloading. When loading and chambering the first round too, for that matter.

[Blaine]

If you don't have a 45-70, please get one, especially if you handload...you'll never regret it

[JohndeFresno]

I can't sit at the 'puter too long at the moment, so I should have read the posts more carefully.

I totally agree with 76/444, jfchucker and BlaineG:
1) You already have a .45-70 - that beats out the .444 and .450 Marlin (for that matter) - in availability of ammunition loads, and certainly in the huge range of handloads that are tested and proven and available as recipes from dozens of sources - Internet as well as handload publications and magazine articles.

2) Everybody swears by the .35 Remington in your area. That speaks volumes.

3) Get yerself a great little .35 Remington, and then handle it like you would without a cross-bolt and don't worry about it! My Marlin .30-30 has no cross-bolt; the Marlin .45-70 does - but that has never come up as an issue to me, since I handle them both in the same way so I don't have to stop and think whether the safety is "off" or "on."

[Bogie35]

There are two areas where the 35 Remington shines especially bright: swamps and dense forests East of the Rockies. On moose or large black bear, the 30-30 will perform well in your capable hands, but the 35 adds a little more assurance for only a little more recoil. Whatever you hit in the vitals with a 35 Remington dies very quickly. My favorite writer, John Taffin, once wrote that there's no better cartridge/rifle combination for everything in the lower 48 at close to moderate ranges than a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington.

bogie

[Blaine]

Life would be perfectly fine if the only caliber out there was a 30WCF or a .35.......Sorry if I gave the impression they were not acceptable rounds.

[Bogie35]

Life would be perfectly fine if the only caliber out there was a 30WCF or a .35.......Sorry if I gave the impression they were not acceptable rounds.

Tubas and big bore leverguns, what more could you ask for!

bogie

[76/444]

I can't sit at the 'puter too long at the moment, so I should have read the posts more carefully.

I totally agree with 76 / 44, jfchucker and Blaine:
1) You already have a .45-70 - that beats out the .444 and .460 Marlin (for that matter) - in availability of ammunition loads, and certainly in the huge range of handloads that are tested and proven and available as recipes from dozens of sources - Internet as well as handload publications and magazine articles.

2) Everybody swears by the .35 Remington in your area. That speaks volumes.

3) Get yerself a great little .35 Remington, and then handle it like you would without a cross-bolt and don't worry about it! My Marlin .30-30 has no cross-bolt; the Marlin .45-70 does - but that has never come up as an issue to me, since I handle them both in the same way so I don't have to stop and think whether the safety is "off" or "on."

Hmmm,.. I guess I just can't let this go by without a comment.

I never meant to imply that the 45/70 would beat out the Marlin444,... what I meant to imply was that since he already had a 45/70 there was (in my opinion) absolutely no need for him to buy another big bore lever gun in a caliber that begins with a number 4 !!

Pointing out that a 45/70Gov's power capability is superior to a Marlin444 when dealing with dangerous game, "in my opinion", is like comparing the use of a 12ga. to 20ga. on rabbits.

They both are MORE than capable at getting the job done, but, is the extra power of the 12ga necessary?

I just took my Marlin444 to our private desert range yesterday. At 50yds with Hornady factory 265gr. light mags, I punched clean 1/2 inch holes in 1/2 plate steel. Do I need to question the Marlin444 when dealing with black bear, with that type of results? I don't think so. Is there a more dangerous, more hard to kill animal in my mountain range I should caliber up to? No. Should I go to a 45/70 because it can be loaded up even more powerfully? Why?

And , again, I take exception to the consistent quotes and references to the 45/70Gov.'s ability to load a vastly greater number of bullet weights.

NOT,... because it is not true, but, because I don't see the need. I think the majority of people I know primarily choose one or two bullet weights for a particular caliber they own,... buy or load for those two bullet weight best results and leave it at that. I know I live out in the boonies, but I know no one who loads up six different bullet weights and loads for any one caliber.

Now if, a moderately recoiling 400gr. plus, to 500gr. plus bullet is your thing, then YES the 45/70Gov, is your caliber. And if I didn't go with the Marlin444 I would go with a 45/70Gov., without a doubt!!! But it will not kill anything in Maine USA any more dead than a marlin444, in my personal opinion.

I highly recommend that you stick with your 45/70Gov,... fine tune it into something you will shoot the eyes out of what ever you point it at, at any distance you feel comfortable with, and just be happy!!!

[348WCF]

Wow, This has generated a lot more than I thought! 76/444 has sparked an interest in customizing I have considered, but dismissed in the past due to the "collector' value of the Winnie 86's. Then again, I don't collect guns, I buy then to hunt and enjoy.
Also, I did not mean to imply that I do not have a 30-30; I do, in a Winchester 94, but I do not have a 35 Remington and am very partial to the 35's. As of right now I think I have it down to the 35 Rem or customizing one of the 86's. I have no lack of large bores and enjoy them immensely, but do not own a Marlin and wanted something different. All you folks speak highly of Marlin so I figure that is all the excuse I need for a new gun

[76/444]

Wow, This has generated a lot more than I thought! 76/444 has sparked an interest in customizing I have considered, but dismissed in the past due to the "collector' value of the Winnie 86's. Then again, I don't collect guns, I buy then to hunt and enjoy.
Also, I did not mean to imply that I do not have a 30-30; I do, in a Winchester 94, but I do not have a 35 Remington and am very partial to the 35's. As of right now I think I have it down to the 35 Rem or customizing one of the 86's. I have no lack of large bores and enjoy them immensely, but do not own a Marlin and wanted something different. All you folks speak highly of Marlin so I figure that is all the excuse I need for a new gun

Well,.... that's a horse of a different color!!!

Every lever guy should own at least one Marlin!!!

[JohndeFresno]

With the .4something bore question, everybody has their favorites.

As for me, I looked extensively into the .460 Marlin, .45-70, and .444 and determined that brass is more available and/or cheaper for the .45-70; you can get more load weights from it than with the others (that are effective within those weights); and there are more loads found in my various reloading manuals, magazine articles, and Internet sources such as "LoadData" and "AmmoGuide" and others for that caliber than with the others. It's been around longer, for one thing!

And I like the lower pressures for most of these loads. And with all of the new powders, including the bulky TrailBoss, can find some load that doesn't just sit in the bottom of the cartridge.

Indeed, I have several loads that I am working with, for recreation and for future (planned) hunting use, that might not have as many possibilities in the other rounds due to case capacity and bullet choices (where the bullets are known to stabilize). I guess if I just used the .45-70 for hunting (which I don't), the statement about "one load" might be valid. I tend to think that many readers here like to experiment with more than just a pet hunting load for their firearm(s) of choice. The .45-70 allows this more than the other two rounds, to a significant degree.

This next season (after I am more able to get around) I will finish working on:
1) A gallery type load with the button collar round
2) A "catsneeze" load with a very heavy bullet (although my Guide Gun's short barrel won't allow a super quiet load, no matter what I do);
3) A heavy load for long range shooting and experimentation
4) A standard weight load
5) An all copper bullet load or two (there are two weights from Barnes) for Calif. hunting

I agree that Marlin had some good ideas when they made the other two rounds, but it seems to me that, unless you don't handload and need only factory ammo of a specified power level or two, they are a bit redundant, and limited.

If you read the literature on the .444 Marlin in any one of several sources, you frequently come across the statement that this caliber was produced because .44 Mag lovers wanted a little more punch with that round for a rifle.

Reading into the .460 Marlin, you will likely find a statement about its being created for people who want a powerful, modern equivalent of the old .45-70 in a package with enough power to take dangerous game, on the high end -what the old .45-70 guns could not safely deliver. Enter the Marlin lever gun that can handle tougher loads, or the Ruger Nr1 - that limit no longer exists for the old buffalo killer.

Then, there are two other items; one intangible, one that is not. How cool is it to load and fire a round that was around before your father was born? How many other firearms are made that can handle the ammunition?

You have to admit that there is no load that a .44 or .450 has that a .45-70 handloader cannot duplicate; and there are three different strengths of rifles available, depending on what you intend to use it for. The Marlin Guide Gun suits me perfectly.

[76/444]

With the .4something bore question, everybody has their favorites.

As for me, I looked extensively into the .460 Marlin, .45-70, and .444 and determined that brass is more available and/or cheaper for the .45-70; you can get more load weights from it than with the others (that are effective within those weights); and there are more loads found in my various reloading manuals, magazine articles, and Internet sources such as "LoadData" and "AmmoGuide" and others for that caliber than with the others. It's been around longer, for one thing!

And I like the lower pressures for most of these loads. And with all of the new powders, including the bulky TrailBoss, can find some load that doesn't just sit in the bottom of the cartridge.

Indeed, I have several loads that I am working with, for recreation and for future (planned) hunting use, that might not have as many possibilities in the other rounds due to case capacity and bullet choices (where the bullets are known to stabilize). I guess if I just used the .45-70 for hunting (which I don't), the statement about "one load" might be valid. I tend to think that many readers here like to experiment with more than just a pet hunting load for their firearm(s) of choice. The .45-70 allows this more than the other two rounds, to a significant degree.

This next season (after I am more able to get around) I will finish working on:
1) A gallery type load with the button collar round
2) A "catsneeze" load with a very heavy bullet (although my Guide Gun's short barrel won't allow a super quiet load, no matter what I do);
3) A heavy load for long range shooting and experimentation
4) A standard weight load
5) An all copper bullet load or two (there are two weights from Barnes) for Calif. hunting

I agree that Marlin had some good ideas when they made the other two rounds, but it seems to me that, unless you don't handload and need only factory ammo of a specified power level or two, they are a bit redundant, and limited.

If you read the literature on the .444 Marlin in any one of several sources, you frequently come across the statement that this caliber was produced because .44 Mag lovers wanted a little more punch with that round for a rifle.

Reading into the .460 Marlin, you will likely find a statement about its being created for people who want a powerful, modern equivalent of the old .45-70 in a package with enough power to take dangerous game, on the high end -what the old .45-70 guns could not safely deliver. Enter the Marlin lever gun that can handle tougher loads, or the Ruger Nr1 - that limit no longer exists for the old buffalo killer.

Then, there are two other items; one intangible, one that is not. How cool is it to load and fire a round that was around before your father was born? How many other firearms are made that can handle the ammunition?

You have to admit that there is no load that a .44 or .460 has that a .45-70 handloader cannot duplicate; and there are three different strengths of rifles available, depending on what you intend to use it for. The Marlin Guide Gun suits me perfectly.

Do you sight your weapon in differently for every time you change a bullet/load,... or, do you have a 45/70Gov. rifle for every time you change bullet/load?

[JohndeFresno]

Do you sight your weapon in differently for every time you change a bullet/load,... or, do you have a 45/70Gov. rifle for every time you change bullet/load?

Short answer: Different points of aim right now. But reloading and shooting is a fun hobby to me, not just a survival or hunting thing.

I am just a recently retired working stiff - a cop for most of my career. I don't have a stable of guns, although I have enough to keep me happy - each one in a different caliber except for my silhouette barrel and standard length .44 Mag revolvers and two .22 rifles. I'm saving up now for a .45 Colt of some kind, not that I need it!

So I have one Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. I started working up several loads but have had some things that stopped my reloading for a while, including emergencies and then the shutdown on primer supplies everywhere. I have not yet "perfected" any of the loads mentioned, although I have spent a lot of time researching them (and asking questions here) and have loaded a few, that need to fine tuned.

I just put up a big target, use a point of aim, and try to drop all of the bullets into the same place at 50 yards. Later, I'll do it with 100 yards and so on, depending upon the capabilities of the round. I have purchased all of the bullets that I intend to use, already (except the other weight in the Barnes bullet, since there are two - a plus for the .45-70). This is a reprint from records, although the prices have changed by now:
* 130gr Mt. Baldy #457130 Collar Btn / 20:1 Gallery load
* 300gr Barnes TSX FN for hunting in California; compare w lighter one for stability
* 300gr Mt. Baldy Saeco015 RNFP / 20:1 Bear, Hogs
* 350gr Hornady #4503 FP Intlk / Jacketed. New, roughly $0.460 ea.
* 405gr Mt. Baldy Saeco018 RNFP / 20:1 soft lead for Silent Load
* 420gr Mt. Baldy #457193 RNFP / 20:1 soft lead for Silent Load
* 430gr Oregon FPGC Tru (45-70) / Hard cast silver alloy w/ gas
check for big game max velocity; $28.99 for 50, shipping included (Tru-Shot)

I have not really looked into the super heavy loads (above 430 gr), yet.

For standard shooting for giggles and such, I have just about decided upon this load, but it needs some fine tuning and target work at 100 yards:
* 405 Mt. Baldy Saeco018 RNFP; Red Dot (Alliant) powder 13 gr.;
Starline brass, CCI 200 - Lg Rifle primer; 1200fps Estimated (not yet chrono'd);
Marlin 1895G Guide Gun, 18.5 bbl
My notes: See Lyman 48thEd Pg 298 for bullet. Trim Case to 2.095 in. length. MODERATE load that approximates blackpowder in barrels of like length. Per C. E. 'Ed' Harris: 405 gr soft lead with this load in 22 in. bbl runs 1300-1350 fps; same as early black powder loads. MV est. reduced for 18.5 in bbl.

I like this because Red Dot is cheap and it fills the case adequately, and it is easy on the rifle, which I want to keep around and not shoot to pieces. It doesn't kick a lot for "bragging rights" - and I don't care; I shoot for me, not for show, and usually alone. With its old world recoil, I can shoot it until I run out of ammo without reaching for the liniment. A truly fun load to shoot. When I get a proper hard wood rod from the hobby store so that I can safely unplug the barrel, I'll start experiment with this bullet with lower velocities to see how quiet I can get with the big bullet, then I'll try the 420 load for the same reason.

[76/444]

Since owning a Marlin444 I have read a lot of opinion, innuendo and rumors about this caliber. Most of the positives,... as expected, were from 444 owners,... and most of the negatives from 45/70Gov. owners.

Quit awhile ago I came across a very interesting article that I put on file. I saved it for occasions when more opinion and passed around rumor was being discussed than actual facts. I would like to post a copy of one paragraph, and a link to the original article at this time, if there are no objections.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote;.......

" Starting in 1872, the Ordnance Department started conducting a series of tests in which they were evaluating a variety of centerfire black powder cartridges for possible adoption as the new military rifle round. Basically they were comparing straight-tapered cases to bottle-necked cases, in calibers from .40 through .45, with lead bullets weighing from 290 to 484 grains. A tremendous amount of shooting was performed, mapping the various trajectories, group sizes, penetration and wind drift out past 1000 yards. This work was summarized in the "Report of a Board of Ordnance Officers Convened Under Special Orders No. 107, Dated Adjutant General's Office, May 7, 1872, For the Purpose of Determining the Proper Caliber for Small Arms" (how's that for a title?), published in 1873. Ultimately, this research led to the adoption of the .45-70 as the standard cartridge for the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield rifle. However, it's interesting to note that as a part of this evaluation, the Ordnance Officers developed a cartridge (test fired in "Gun Number 15") with a straight-tapered 2.3" rimmed case, with a .430" diameter 365 grain bullet, that bore a remarkable resemblance to what would later be called the ".444 Marlin", differing only a few thousandths in certain key dimensions. While some have described the .444 Marlin as "a modern .45-70", the historical record shows that the basic concept behind the case design actually predates the adoption of the .45-70 as the official military cartridge! "


link;.... http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

[76/444]

Do you sight your weapon in differently for every time you change a bullet/load,... or, do you have a 45/70Gov. rifle for every time you change bullet/load?

Short answer: Different points of aim right now. But reloading and shooting is a fun hobby to me, not just a survival or hunting thing.

I am just a recently retired working stiff - a cop for most of my career. I don't have a stable of guns, although I have enough to keep me happy - each one in a different caliber except for my silhouette barrel and standard length .44 Mag revolvers and two .22 rifles. I'm saving up now for a .45 Colt of some kind, not that I need it!

So I have one Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. I started working up several loads but have had some things that stopped my reloading for a while, including emergencies and then the shutdown on primer supplies everywhere. I have not yet "perfected" any of the loads mentioned, although I have spent a lot of time researching them (and asking questions here) and have loaded a few, that need to fine tuned.

I just put up a big target, use a point of aim, and try to drop all of the bullets into the same place at 50 yards. Later, I'll do it with 100 yards and so on, depending upon the capabilities of the round. I have purchased all of the bullets that I intend to use, already (except the other weight in the Barnes bullet, since there are two - a plus for the .45-70). This is a reprint from records, although the prices have changed by now:
* 130gr Mt. Baldy #457130 Collar Btn / 20:1 Gallery load
* 300gr Barnes TSX FN for hunting in California; compare w lighter one for stability
* 300gr Mt. Baldy Saeco015 RNFP / 20:1 Bear, Hogs
* 350gr Hornady #4503 FP Intlk / Jacketed. New, roughly $0.460 ea.
* 405gr Mt. Baldy Saeco018 RNFP / 20:1 soft lead for Silent Load
* 420gr Mt. Baldy #457193 RNFP / 20:1 soft lead for Silent Load
* 430gr Oregon FPGC Tru (45-70) / Hard cast silver alloy w/ gas
check for big game max velocity; $28.99 for 50, shipping included (Tru-Shot)

I have not really looked into the super heavy loads (above 430 gr), yet.

For standard shooting for giggles and such, I have just about decided upon this load, but it needs some fine tuning and target work at 100 yards:
* 405 Mt. Baldy Saeco018 RNFP; Red Dot (Alliant) powder 13 gr.;
Starline brass, CCI 200 - Lg Rifle primer; 1200fps Estimated (not yet chrono'd);
Marlin 1895G Guide Gun, 18.5 bbl
My notes: See Lyman 48thEd Pg 298 for bullet. Trim Case to 2.095 in. length. MODERATE load that approximates blackpowder in barrels of like length. Per C. E. 'Ed' Harris: 405 gr soft lead with this load in 22 in. bbl runs 1300-1350 fps; same as early black powder loads. MV est. reduced for 18.5 in bbl.

I like this because Red Dot is cheap and it fills the case adequately, and it is easy on the rifle, which I want to keep around and not shoot to pieces. It doesn't kick a lot for "bragging rights" - and I don't care; I shoot for me, not for show, and usually alone. With its old world recoil, I can shoot it until I run out of ammo without reaching for the liniment. A truly fun load to shoot. When I get a proper hard wood rod from the hobby store so that I can safely unplug the barrel, I'll start experiment with this bullet with lower velocities to see how quiet I can get with the big bullet, then I'll try the 420 load for the same reason.

So, in other words,... your rifle is only usable for the one load that it happens to be sighted in for?

[76/444]

And I like the lower pressures for most of these loads. And with all of the new powders, including the bulky TrailBoss, can find some load that doesn't just sit in the bottom of the cartridge.

Now you are stepping into my inner thoughts about reloading my 444!!! I have had a hankering to get back into reloading ever since I read about this powder. By any chance have you done any chronograph readings on any 45/70Gov. full case loadings with a 300/350grn bullets and Trail Boss? I would really like to know what they are , if you have!!!

edit,... sorry, didn't mean to hy-jack the OP's thread. if you would pm me I would appreciate it.

[JohndeFresno]

So, in other words,... your rifle is only usable for the one load that it happens to be sighted in for?

The loads all print the same at the muzzle!

I don't think this is a hijack in progress - but if it is, please tell me so that the Web Police don't arrest me! I think that it is a legitimate comparison (or at least exchange of opinions) that might help one to decide upon a particular caliber.

Yes, at this point, my rifle works with the load that I am using - just like in the days of the Old west when the .Colt 45 sights were NOT adjustable - "she shoots an inch low and 2 inches to the right." But bear in mind that I have stressed that my load development has just started, and there may be several identical points of aim when I am through - that's part of the fun.

I have a Chrony, but I have not had enough extended days at the range to run all of the data needed - I merely started with rough loads that I ascertained were safe to start with, at this point. Since I retired this year from a demanding work schedule (60 hour weeks or more with callouts), dropped my admitted over-involvement as an officer and newsletter editor with a veterans' group, and have now taken care of a major surgery need, I plan to "get a life" and shoot more!

- - -
OK - here we go! Moderator and/or 348wcf, advise me if this should be a new thread and I will delete this and make a new topic. But I believe that this is ongoing dialog.

I rarely get entrenched in "my caliber/gun is better than yours" - but I admit to being very opinionated on the choice of the .45-70 versus the other two similar lever calibers - based upon my anguishing over the choice for over a year while I saved up for the proper "ultimate" levergun.

The items that turned the tide for me:
Speer Reloading Manual #13
"Compared: The .444 Marlin, .45-70 Govt. and .450 Marlin" by Chuck Hawks
My brother-in-law's .45-70 Marlin load that shot a tiny group

Hands down, as Chuck Hawks says, the .45-70 brass is easier to get, and it can duplicate anything that the other two rounds attain (with today's powder and bullets). In fairness, ALL three rounds are excellent choices. But since I was dropping several hundred scooties of my hard earned income, I wanted the best possible choice. The .45-70 is it.

I cannot publish the whole article by Chuck Hawks because it is copyrighted; but if you drop a modest amount of cash for a limited subscription, you can download his excellent stuff to your heart's content for (I think) a year - there may be a smaller monthly fee, too; I can't remember right now. He gives a very even-handed evaluation of all three calibers; but here is a limited amount of info from that site:

- - - - -
(c) Chuck Hawks, 2003 and only partially quoted -

"An asterisk (*) marks the most common factory loads.
• .444 Marlin = 240 grain Rem. - MV 2350 fps, ME 2942 ft. lbs.*
• .444 Marlin = 265 grain Hor. - MV 2335 fps, ME 3208 ft. lbs.
• .444 Marlin = 280 grain C-B - MV 2200 fps, ME 3010 ft. lbs.
• .444 Marlin = 305 grain C-B - MV 2100 fps, ME 2987 ft. lbs.
• .45-70 Govt. = 300 grain Fed. - MV 1880 fps, ME 2355 ft. lbs.*
• .45-70 Govt. = 350 grain C-B - MV 1800 fps, ME 2519 ft. lbs.
• .45-70 +P = 350 grain PMC - MV 2025 fps, ME 3185 ft. lbs.
• .45-70 Govt. = 405 grain Rem. - MV 1330 fps, ME 1590 ft. lbs.
• .45-70 Govt. = 405 grain C-B - MV 1650 fps, ME 2450ft. lbs.
• .450 Marlin = 350 grain Hor. - MV 2100 fps, ME 3427 ft. lbs."

"...the factory load shooter has greater versatility and a wider variety of loads available from which to choose in .45-70, some of which kick considerably less than the relatively few .444 Marlin and .450 Marlin factory loads. We have already mentioned the traditional 405 grain factory load in this connection."

"...For the reloader with a modern lever action rifle, things pretty much even out. All three calibers have the capability of taking all North American big game within their MPBR and with appropriate loads. And light or heavy loads can be produced as needed.

"The .45-70 clearly moves into first place for the reloader with a modern single shot or bolt action rifle. The higher pressure limit permitted by such rifles gives the .45-70 the advantage in performance."

[...and finally, to be "fair and balanced" about this:]
"In conclusion I can only say that I have admired the big bore calibers, as applied to lever action rifles, since Marlin introduced the .444 in 1964. Marlin built on the success of their new Model 1885 rifle by adding the .45-70 chambering in the early 1970's. When the .450 Marlin arrived on the scene in 2000, making a choice became even more difficult. Fortunately, as we have seen, one cannot really go wrong with any of these fine big bore calibers."

- - - - -
If you are a subscriber, the url is:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/subscribers/r ... 70_450.htm

Given the wider range of load data, availability and usability of brass fired under lower pressures, larger bullet diameter, and availability of firearms to use the ammunition, I believe that it is "no contest" for the .45-70.

[JohndeFresno]

76/444 and anybody else who is interested in Trail Boss and .45-70 quiet loads:

Chuck 100 yd (at this site) and others had some good posts with specific loads when this was under the SixGuns umbrella. I could not find these posts with the current search engine. But when I find an excellent thread, I save it as a PDF (Adobe Portable Document File).

Some posts are downloadable in Zip format, roughly 360kb in all, from my public storage site:
http://www.box.net/shared/893pjf9b9x
Enjoy!

I don't want to get too far off topic, so enough said. IT still IS about the great .45-70's versatility!

[76/444]

Well, JohndeFresno,... I am glad to hear how happy you are with your 45/70Gov..

But, just remember, , you can only shoot one load with one sight setting at one time, most of the time. So, variety doesn't really matter a whole lot. Yes I understand you can load up four or five weights/bullets to come close enough in point of aim that you wouldn't have to change your sights, but, I don't believe that is the way I would do it.

Also,... the 45/70 is the best possible choice for YOU, and others with your requirements in a big bore. For me, and others like me, shooting 400grn or 500grn slugs isn't a priority but good factory performing ammo is in a big bore.

In other words, to each their own. As Chuck stated, they all kill the same. They all can be loaded up or down, with heavy or light,... it really just boils down to personal tastes. Luckily we both can agree that we like Marlins, in whatever caliber!!!

[JohndeFresno]

Luckily we both can agree than we like marlins, in whatever caliber!!!

Yup - and I agree that the .444 is an excellent round, too. Actually, I'll probably never use the .45-70 on game (just for jollies) unless I go bear hunting, since my .30-30 seems to fill the bill for all short to medium range shooting in my area!