Are repros of antiques, classified as antiques?

[KirkD]

I've heard that reproductions of antique firearms, such as the Shiloh Sharps and the Cimarron Model 1876 are also classified as antiques and, therefore, do not require a shipment to an FFL dealer, but can go directly to ones residence. Is this true or false?

[Leverdude]

I've heard that reproductions of antique firearms, such as the Shiloh Sharps and the Cimarron Model 1876 are also classified as antiques and, therefore, do not require a shipment to an FFL dealer, but can go directly to ones residence. Is this true or false?

I think its false. Otherwise the Rossi's ect would be exempt as well. As far as I know it goes by actual DOM.

[awp101]

AFAIK, as long as it's a cartridge firearm (BP or not) a replica would have to ship to an FFL. An original antique wouldn't though.

Canadian rules may be different though...

[Hobie]

If made post 1898 a cartridge gun is NOT antique and must go through an FFL. The exceptions have to do with licensing and whether or not the gun is classified as a "curio and relic". I don't know of any reproduction that's been classified as a CR gun. Most all the repros are only about 40 years old. Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. However, if your C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removal from the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branch for evaluation and a formal classification.

[Ysabel Kid]

Kirk -

They nailed it. Here, a modern reproduction of an old design requires shipment to an FFL. The very same original could go to an C&R holder, and depending on the age, might be able to be shipped directly to a non-license holder (if the original was made before 1898). Go figure. Some states here (like Michigan) won't allow blackpowder C&B handguns to ship directly to people without going through an FFL. The hodge-podge of laws is quite annoying...

[KirkD]

That answers my question. Thanks.

[cas]

Here's a story.

Person "A" orders Shilo Sharps 50-90 through well known middle man. When rifle is ready to ship, middle man says it doesn't need to go through an FFL because it is chambered in an obsolete cartridge for which no commercially produced ammo is available. Person A says "Uh... okay". Rifle ships direct. Middle man has been in that business for years, does so on a regular basis, so person A assumes he knows better than he.

[KirkD]

Here's a story.

Person "A" orders Shilo Sharps 50-90 through well known middle man. When rifle is ready to ship, middle man says it doesn't need to go through an FFL because it is chambered in an obsolete cartridge for which no commercially produced ammo is available. Person A says "Uh... okay". Rifle ships direct. Middle man has been in that business for years, does so on a regular basis, so person A assumes he knows better than he.

I know of just such an example. A fellow up here in Canada ordered a modern repro in an obsolete caliber. It was shipped directly to his door without any US export permit, as he was told that none was necessary. It may be the case that the same 'well known middle man' shipped it to him. That was why I asked this question. According to the fellow up here in Canada, the fellow who shipped it to him was familiar with what required an export permit and what did not (antique firearms do not) and explained why the modern repro in an obsolete caliber was classified by US law as an antique, therefore no export permit required.

Either that well known middle man has checked and knows what he's doing, or he is going to bankroll a very large fine one of these days. In the meantime, unless someone quotes the relevant section of US law, chapter and verse, I'm going to assume the middle man does not know the law and that modern repros in obsolete calibers are not classified as antiques.

[Killer Kanuck]

I did some digging on that myself Kirk. I was (and still sort of am) contemplating importing an Armi-Sport Spencer carbine, since no one here stocks them. Look at the State Department's International Traffic in Arms Regulations, section 123.17(b) - basically it says firearms made pre-1898, or replicas thereof, do not require any export paperwork.

[KirkD]

I did some digging on that myself Kirk. I was (and still sort of am) contemplating importing an Armi-Sport Spencer carbine, since no one here stocks them. Look at the State Department's International Traffic in Arms Regulations, section 123.17(b) - basically it says firearms made pre-1898, or replicas thereof, do not require any export paperwork.

Interesting. I know another fellow Canadian who has imported a repro into Canada without an US export permit being required. So I'm a bit confused. Could it be that if a repro is being shipped somewhere in the USA, it needs to go to a FFL dealer, but if it is being shipped out of country, no export permit is required? In other words, a repro is not an antique, it just doesn't need a US export permit?

[rjohns94]

Shiloh sharps, if a cartridge rifle, needs to ship to an ffl. Muzzleloaders do not.

[KirkD]

Shiloh sharps, if a cartridge rifle, needs to ship to an ffl. Muzzleloaders do not.

Okay, but I know a recent case where a Shiloh Sharps was shipped to Canada, without requiring a US Export permit. That puts it in a different classification than either an antique or a modern rifle.

An antique requires neither an FFL dealer for in-country shipments, nor a US export permit if being shipped out of the country.
A modern rifle requires both
It seems that a repro of an antique gun, at least if it shoots obsolete cartridges, still requires an FFL dealer for in-country shipments, but no US export permit if being shipped out of country.

If the above is true, it would explain everything that I've come across.

[Hobie]

EXPORT is different from sale in country.

[KirkD]

EXPORT is different from sale in country.

That seems to be the operative criterion. Initially, because these repros in obsolete calibers did not need an export permit, I assumed they must be classified as antiques, as I was under the impression that only antiques could be exported out of the US without an export permit. However, if in country shipping still requires that they be shipped to an FFL dealer, then they cannot be antiques. So repros in obsolete calibers have some of the benefits of antiques, but not all the benefits.

[Hobie]

Firearms are apparently considered differently in export than in in-country sales. Such that a Shiloh Sharps is an antique for purpose of export to Canada (at least) but not IN the USofA. In as much as the 1876s are really coming THROUGH the U.S. would you need an export license from Italy? I don't think I'm making the point that it is two different questions.

Another example is computers. Anyone can buy certain computers here which require special licenses for export and the buyers of which are very much vetted prior to approval.

[KirkD]

I'm not sure about the Cimarron '76 SRC's since, as you mention, they are coming THROUGH the USA. I did speak with the Cimarron dealer here in Canada yesterday, and he says I have to pay some duty on the SRC (3 & 1/2%) since it is made in Italy. So that implies that, legally, the Cimarron guns only pass THROUGH the USA. By the way, I emailed him this afternoon to tell him that I will proceed with the purchase of one of those drop-dead, gorgeous NWMP '76 carbines (all blue receiver) in .45-60. Just in case someone wants to feast their eyes, here's a link http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Repeat ... arbine.htm
I've got a buyer for my original Winchester Model 53 25-20 to fund the new '76. The selling price of the Model 53 will more than cover the cost of the '76, which is the only way I could get my hands on this SRC.

[Gun Smith]

Been that way most of my life, had to sell one toy to get a new one. Darn!

[adirondakjack]

Under US law, ORIGINAL cartridge guns made before the drop dead date (1899 or so) are antiques. Modern production copies are NOT (otherwise even a new 1894 marlin would be a "non-gun".

What screws folks up is original or reproduction muzzleloaders and cap and ball guns are considered antiques, or non-firearms by the BATFE. No NICS check is required, and ya can buy em like pipe wrenches, send em in the US Mail, etc.


With cartridge guns, when it was made is the trick. For example, I have an original 22 stevens favorite MODEL OF 1894. They were made from then until about 1922. Now mine is a smoothbore, and all but a few hundred of those predate 1899, BUT, since the guns are not serialized, I cannot for certain say mine is an antique, so it's not......

[Mike D.]

Believe it or not, the ATF is actually working to classify some modern repros as curios and relics. This already pertains to most "commemorative" 94 Winchesters, Centennial Browning B-92 .44 Mags, and a few others that slip my mind. Of course, commonly available calibers like .44-40 and .45-70 probably won't qualify, but others not commonly available in OTC sales will be included. I have conversed with a few folks at this agency and they are on board with the idea. This is NOT a rumor.

[Pete44ru]

From the US Gun Control Act of 1968:

Antiques

Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antiques exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)

.

[Noah Zark]

I've heard that reproductions of antique firearms, such as the Shiloh Sharps and the Cimarron Model 1876 are also classified as antiques and, therefore, do not require a shipment to an FFL dealer, but can go directly to ones residence. Is this true or false?

As others have stated, not even close to true in the USA, Kirk.

Repros are considered statutory "modern" guns despite their pre-1898 counterparts being classified as antique and not requiring transfer through an FFL. You go "huh?" until you realize that the US government is involved, then it sort of makes sense.

Noah

[KirkD]

From the US Gun Control Act of 1968:

Antiques

Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm ... manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica ... uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade,

Well, by that definition, a replica of a firearm made in or before 1898 that uses fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the US and which is not readily available ..... qualifies as an antique. It may be the case that companies like Cimarron only ship to FFL dealers regardless of whether a repro qualifies or not in order to avoid the problems of classifying which ones qualify, and be on the safe side. If there is no list of calibers that officially qualify as obsolete, then it raises questions as to which ones are repro antiques and which ones are not. There are one or two specialty companies that make all sorts of otherwise obsolete ammo. I wonder how that figures in to the above definition.

[adirondakjack]

Readily available in channels of commercial trade means just that. If I can order it from OWS or Midway, it is available. If I have to buy brass, mold bullets, and load my own, then no, it isn't available. That some guy is offering it as a specialty round wouldn't necessarily mean anywthing, but would play poorly with a jury "We were able to buy it, having it shipped from podunk"...

So, when Uberti made some Henry rifles in .44 henry rimfire (they did at one time), those were "non-guns" designed to be wallhangers. A rolling block in 50-70 would be in the gray area, and one in .45-70 a definite statutory firearm., all going on the ammo bit. A few years ago the 50-70 woulda been a non gun as well, but now some small houses load it.....

[Leverdude]

I'm not a lawyer by any means. But I'd think if you could buy new brass for it it wouldn't be considered obsolete.

Its a pretty grey area but I cant see say a Ruger or any other new single action 44/40 or a Marlin, Win or Uberti 25/20 ever being considered an antique.

[barbarossa]

When I imported my Shiloh 1863 Sharps even though it was a paper cartridge gun I had to have the export/import paper work done.I think what happens that every once and awhile a gun or two slips through the system and gets delivered without the paperwork as not every system is foolproof especially those run by the government.In short in my opinion if a gun is sent without the paperwork you are taking a chance on whether customs would A send it back,B Charge you with illegal importation of a firearm ,C Destroythe firearm.Just not worth the risk or the hassle.

[Gun Smith]

Just as there is a list of modern rifles that fall under the C&R regulations, there is a list of obsolete ammo. Both are part of the ATF regulations that are sent to holders of C&R licenses.
Just because a gun may be eligible for C&R status, it still can be a firearm under ATF rules.
The reason for a C&R license, as described by the ATF, is to allow C&R licensed individuals to purchase listed C&R guns nationwide, without the necessity of using a FFL holder.
You may not, however, use a C&R license to conduct any business pertaining to buying or selling C&R listed guns. It is ONLY for the personal use of the holder to buy and sell guns for his own use.