.30/30 Ackley Improved

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:57 am

Paco, your piece entitled "7.62x51R revisited" is great! If you would though, I'd like you to expand your experiences with the .30/30 A.I. I've been toying with the idea of going with a rechamber of my M-94. Not so much for the velocity gain (altho, why not!) but to have a chamber that reduces backthrust on the bolt, (breechblock?) and apparently much extended case life. I expect to do a LOT of shooting at both ends of the pressure/velocity spectrum and don't want to beat up my rifle. As you know, there's different opinions regarding shoulder angle, 35 or 40 degrees, and even just where the shoulder oughta be. Another thing I'm wondering is how well the AI cartridge cycles through the action, some claim it's not as smooth as the parent cartridge. Are they just nitpicking on a non issue? Seeing as how I want to do a lot of plinking with cast bullets, but also maybe dabble with "cowboy silhouette", am I "on track" with the whole idea of rechambering? In Sinclair's catalog, Redding has .30/30 AI dies (40 degree) as a catalog item, so is that a version you would go with in regard to not needing "custom" dies or are dies for your version available somewhere? You've "been there, done that" in regard to this round so how about a few more thoughts on it mi amigo? (And others who've shot this cartridge)Best, Dennis (who's maybe drank too much coffee this morning!)

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:13 am

We don't see Paco here much these days.

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:20 am

Old Savage wrote:We don't see Paco here much these days.

Oh....ok. (Hope nothing is wrong) Well, let's the rest of us toss this around a little...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:29 am

The ai is a worthwhile conversion, especially if you have more than 1 30-30 and are looking for something new and exciting to play with without spending over 200$.
As you already have the rifle and have developed loads, your load developement should be quick and easy on the top end , just add 2 more grs of powder.
You may see better results with the ai cartridge by going to powders normally considered to slow, or on the extreme slow end of usefulness in the 30-30. Remember you're not shooting a 30-30 anymore, you've got ahold of something more akin to a rimmed 300 savage. 150 gr bullets see the most gain velocity wise, the 170's do steam along at 2300 or a bit more but that's about as far as they'll go. I need to get ahold of some of the Hornady 160 gummytips just to see what can be done with those.
I see no particular advantage to the ai in low velocity cast loads or jacketed "plinking" load.
Case life is grand but probably really no better than the parent case. Most all of the case's I've lost in the ai are due to collapsing the shoulder during bullet seating.
The gunsmith that did the converssion for me was one of them oldguys that was the real deal. His eyes lit up when I took him the rifle, He said " oh yes thats Ackleys best cartridge, if you know what you're doing itll run with the 308, but you do need to keep a careful eye on the headspace when you load it that hot"

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:58 am

Maybe Slim will post up as well.

Have you read Fadala's book on the .30 WCF? He devotes a lot of space to his rifle built by Storey.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:59 am

If you are a little bit handy, you can easlily do the rechamber job yourself. I rechambered my Marlin 30TK myself with a reamer I bought from Midway. LEE also makes 30-30 Ackley dies which are quite a bit cheaper than the Redding dies you mention. 2500 fps with a 150 gr. bullet are no problem. RE15 has proven to get the most velocity with Varget a close second.

Feeding concerns are a non issue, at least in my experience. Yes, they are not quite as smooth "feeling" when cycling, but it's not a problem in my rifle.

Here's mine,

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:02 pm

I got my dies from Hornady, they had a special on them so the cost was about 30$, but then that's been a few years ago..
anyways the cartridge on the far right, is one of my ai's with a 170 gr speer loaded in it.

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:41 pm

Thanks for the responses and tips guys. Keep 'em coming!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:17 pm

Got a new Gunbroker purchase headed to my FFL as we speak. Its a Winchester Ranger AE model 30-30 (pre-safety but post '64) --- i have been seriously considering this mod., but my 'smith is so slow (gets bogged down during deer season) i may do it early next year instead

wm · Post by wm » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:21 pm

I have a buddy thinking about doing a remodel on a Remington 81 into a carbine and it will likely be a 30 Remington.

I assume Ackley Improving the 30 Remington would not be any different than working on a 30/30.

I also assume that the 81 action (which was chambered in 300 SAV) will also handle the added pressure without problem.

Anyone of the opinion that I am wrong? I appreciate hearing any thoughts you have one this.

Wm

handyrandyrc · Post by **handyrandyrc** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:23 pm

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=21073

Be careful. Not all actions can take the extra stress. Most of my rounds were normal 42k psi or under 30-30 being fire-formed to AI. I probably ran 50 real AI rounds through it -- estimated 45-50k psi over its life. Lasted between 900-1000 rounds and now the receiver is stretched to where it is unsafe.

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 pm

handyrandyrc wrote:http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=21073

Be careful. Not all actions can take the extra stress. Most of my rounds were normal 42k psi or under 30-30 being fire-formed to AI. I probably ran 50 real AI rounds through it -- estimated 45-50k psi over its life. Lasted between 900-1000 rounds and now the receiver is stretched to where it is unsafe.

I thought this was another bonus of the AI round. With most of the taper taken out of the case, thereby gaining additional "cling" of the chamber itself, (assuming it's clean and dry), the rechambering actually REDUCES thrust on the breech block and reduces the setback..(or "stretching"). Additionally, more volume in the case and slower powder/longer burn should be easier on the M-94 action.... I guess it depends how hard you "lean on it" velocity wise?...

BTW, how about accuracy and velocity with the standard cartridge in the AI chamber? Much difference?

handyrandyrc · Post by **handyrandyrc** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:28 pm

Bucks Owin wrote:
handyrandyrc wrote:http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=21073

Be careful. Not all actions can take the extra stress. Most of my rounds were normal 42k psi or under 30-30 being fire-formed to AI. I probably ran 50 real AI rounds through it -- estimated 45-50k psi over its life. Lasted between 900-1000 rounds and now the receiver is stretched to where it is unsafe.
I thought this was another bonus of the AI round. With most of the taper taken out of the case, thereby gaining additional "cling" of the chamber itself, (assuming it's clean and dry), the rechambering actually REDUCES thrust on the breech block and reduces the setback..(or "stretching"). Additionally, more volume in the case and slower powder/longer burn should be easier on the M-94 action.... I guess it depends how hard you "lean on it" velocity wise?...

I agree, and this is where I wonder what went wrong for me. I believed that even fire-forming in an AI chamber was less pressure than firing in a normal chamber. Does fire-forming create extra stress that I wasn't aware of?

Here are my loads:

For AI testing? 32, 33, 34, 35 grains of H335 - 165 grain bullet. 10 rounds each. = 50 AI rounds

a couple hundred rounds were Trail Boss 9 grain plinker loads - 120 grain plinkers. = 250 running count

A couple boxes of Factory Federal 170-grain ammo. = 290 running count

Probably 90% of the total rest of the rounds fired were 28 grains of H335 - 165 grain bullet. I tried from 24 up to 30 grains of H335 (10 rounds each = 70 rounds testing), and found 28gr. to be the best. I loaded up hundreds and hundreds of the 28gr. H335 load. Also every one of the last 180 rounds were this 28 grain load with a 165-grain bullet. = 950-ish running count

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:36 pm

My rifle (actually carbine) is a 1973 but it hasn't had a lot of wear by the looks of it and the bore is great. There is a little wear arounnd the firing pin, maybe from dry firing? From the looks of fired factory cases, there's no setback. At least the primers don't protrude a little like a lot of cases you find laying around the range.....I 'spose I could check the headspace with shims but I think my action is tight enough....

handyrandyrc · Post by **handyrandyrc** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:43 pm

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... Bucks+Owin

Howdy, Bucks! I thought I remembered you from somewhere!

Bucks Owin · Post by **Bucks Owin** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:54 pm

handyrandyrc wrote:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... Bucks+Owin

Howdy, Bucks! I thought I remembered you from somewhere!

Well greetings stranger! Yeah, I've been offline for a LONG time. The "Obamanation" was way to late to save MY mortgage so now I live in a trailerpark and I've been "pooterless" until my son got this laptop for his B-day....(heh heh...)

Gonna catch up over at "boolits" soon as I get a mold and get this .30/30 project going. I've found a place to shoot not far away (Literately and figuratively....3 mi and 75 yds lol) I miss my old "private benchrest" but sandbags on the hood of the jeep will suffice 'til I cobble together another one.....Nice to hear from ya!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:13 pm

The only one of those ai loads that was somewhat safe was the 32 gr, the 33 gr maybe, but the rest of them were probably well over the 50 mark and the last of them probably beat out the 60K mark by a good bit.
Might be a good thing to the the almighty you've still got hands and eyes. And while you're at it, throw in a blessing or two to the folks that made the final decision on metalurgy and heat treat of that action.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:01 pm

I'm not a particular fan of the venerable 30-30 but the A.I. version just looks right to me. I have a rifle converted to 375 H&H A.I. and love it a lot. Might have to reconsider the 30-30 thing.

OK, just did! My 303 Brit does all a 30 caliber need do for me!

Sorry!

-Tutt

handyrandyrc · Post by **handyrandyrc** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:03 pm

Don McDowell wrote:The only one of those ai loads that was somewhat safe was the 32 gr, the 33 gr maybe, but the rest of them were probably well over the 50 mark and the last of them probably beat out the 60K mark by a good bit.
Might be a good thing to the the almighty you've still got hands and eyes. And while you're at it, throw in a blessing or two to the folks that made the final decision on metalurgy and heat treat of that action.

I'd really love to see where I might have been at with those loads. Don, do you have a copy of Quickload? These are loads I got from William Iorg, who has shot these same loads quite a bit. Would Quickload give us a ballpark estimate on pressure?

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:17 pm

I was down at Ranch Dog's place one time when he was shooting some 30-30 AI loads with a strain gauge on his rifle. We were shooting published loads that were thought to be safe loads in the Ackley version, with CAST bullets mind you, that were in fact well over 50K psi. It seems that when you approach max loads pressures increase exponentially and can get out of hand in a hurry if you're not careful. Best rule of thumb to keep your rifle and limbs intact is to load two grains over max 30-30 loads.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:19 pm

Using pressure data from Lymans 49 and Hogdons the maximum for the parent cartridge would be about 30 grs. Working with Ackleys maximum of the parent plus 5 % your 32 gr load would of been plenty with probably little velocity gain at 33, the pressures there would most likely of been exceeding 40k. By the time you got into the top end loads pressures would of been screaming. Bear in mind you are working with an entirely different cartridge now, 335 is going to be a medium burn in that cartridge , making for some higher pressures the higher faster the further you went out past maximum.

DAng Tutt thought we had you there for a minute..... Oh well we must continue to bring you to the light.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:26 pm

Heheheheh! I'm grateful you are not giving up on me!!! Heheheh!

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:33 pm

Seriously Don, my puny mind has a real hard time with 30 caliber anything. The only reason I went with the 303 Brit was after my friend Tym hit the "Billy Dixon Target" at 1538 yards one summer. We were not able to duplicate the shot in the spring, but it got my attention. The 303 Brit has a lot more going for it in terms of bullet weight too. Tym's Enfield was also the first rifle I have ever shot many years ago, so it had some nostagia points there too.

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:58 pm

Hmm 303 brit, .311 diameter..... Same diameter as I use for cast in the 30-06 and........

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:31 am

The 303 just seems to like heavier bullets better than the 30wcf. They are not the same even if the bullet diameter can be IMHO. Both cartridges have a great deal of history, but I believe the 303 Brit goes back to BP days and the 30wcf does not.

-Tutt

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:09 am

The .303 inspired the .30-40 quite a bit. They aren't really in the same class as the .30 WCF, more like the .300 Savage. Both started with 215-220 gr. bullets. I like both. I like the 7.65x53mm Belgian/Argentine, too. Pretty much the same cartridge but rimless. They are a bit more than the .30-30 AI.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:22 am

Tutt Hobie you guys keep skirting the most important thing in cartridge selection

Was it ever, can it be chambered and function thru a Winchester 94

The 303 and 30 US are almost good cartridges as they were chambered in the 95, but I digress.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:32 pm

Uh, the Enfield series are considered one of the top ten battle rifles of all time! I'd say that honor goes toe-to-toe with the Model 94!

When you come to FoBD Don, I'll introduce you to "Old Savage":

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:42 pm

Nifty looking lawnsprinkler your wife has there......

Hopefully we'll see ya next summer.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:54 pm

Nifty looking lawnsprinkler your wife has there......

Its all the rage in conservative towns!

-Tutt

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:37 am

A very interesting thread.
I have shot the 30-30AI quite a bit and have found Hodgdon 335 to be one of the “ideal” powders for the cartridge.
I must admit I have not attempted to push cast bullets to the highest velocities in the 30-30AI. What was your velocity goal for cast bullets?

This is an aside but when looking at the 303 British using heavily compressed (three stages of compression) charges of black powder with lead bullets you can experience visual indications of high pressure with every shot. The lead bullets slugging in the throat sending pressures soaring.

I found visual pressure indications to appear quite low when working with fire form loads. I will admit that I prefer to fire form cartridge for any wildcat using extruded powder. I have experienced what I consider to be premature high pressure indications when fireforming 30-30AI’s cartridges using Winchester 748. With the 22 KE-Hornet I have experienced what appears to be high pressure coupled with high velocity when fire forming cases using Winchester 296. I have been able to duplicate the indications with W296 in the KE-Hornet and this was enough warning for me. I now fire form all improved cartridge cases using extruded powder.

It is difficult to believe the Mossberg rifle would be significantly weaker in its construction and lock up than a Winchester model 94 or Marlin 336. I have fired many hundreds of rounds through both models of rifles without any difficulty. During my initial load testing I deliberately exceed my velocity goals while attempting to determine the margin of safety for daily use. I also wanted to have data which was interchangeable between different rifles and usable through a broad temperature range. I believe I met these goals using jacketed bullets. The substitution of cast bullets certainly adds an unknown variable.

Did you happen to take any velocity or PRE measurements?

Using the Sierra, Hornady and Speer 170-grain bullets I regularly use up to 37.0 grains of Hodgdon 335 or 4895 in my Winchester model 94AE and Marlin 336 without difficulty.
38.0 grains of Hodgdon 335 or 4895 exceeds my velocity goals but I did not consider this to be an above maximum load in the four lever action rifles I worked with.

Were you fire forming new unfired brass or previously handloaded 30-30 rounds?

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:16 am

Slim did you ever get the pressure testing done on the 30-30 ai you were talking about several years ago?

Lymans data on 335 with cast bullets sized .308 shows 30 grs as max, with a pressure of 36.9k cup

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:32 am

Don McDowell wrote: Tutt Hobie you guys keep skirting the most important thing in cartridge selection Was it ever, can it be chambered and function thru a Winchester 94
The 303 and 30 US are almost good cartridges as they were chambered in the 95, but I digress.

I guess so!

I have to admit that I LUSTED after Fadala's .30 AI for several readings of his book. LUSTED I tell you!

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:34 am

I didn't mention this but H335 seems to be a good to excellent powder in the 7-30 Waters, too.

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:19 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Slim did you ever get the pressure testing done on the 30-30 ai you were talking about several years ago?

Lymans data on 335 with cast bullets sized .308 shows 30 grs as max, with a pressure of 36.9k cup

We never did. Time was the problem. Maybe after I retire I'll have time to play with a pressure trace. My problem is I think in "CUP" and the world is turning to PSI.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:07 pm

Sam Fadala is my ideal of a modern expert regarding the 30-30 PO Ackley Improved. He commissioned a custom Winchester 94 by a smith in Casper, Wyoming and wrote a book about his experiments and findings. BOTTOM LINE: this cartridge is BEST utilized with a 24 inch barrel. Velocity and energy at 225 yards will equal the forgotten 300 Savage cartridge.

TR

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:31 pm

Slim I know what you mean. I keep thinking to get one of the RSI systems, but there's always some pretty gun somewhere makes me spend my money before I can get around to ordering.......

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:23 pm

I've got two 30-30AI's (40 degree). One is a 1970 Win 94 that I gussied up with a new numrich front end and some some new classic furniture. The other is a Marlin 336. I reamed them both myself with a finishing reamer from Midway. Sold the reamer earlier this year after deciding I was done with it.

You can ream the Marlins without removing the barrel. You just need an extension that will reach down into the receiver.

I like em. The 336 reaches higher velocity/pressure earlier than the numrich barrel on the 94.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:02 pm

Haven't had much forum time this year, nice to find a good topic with fellows that I know!

Not much time for pressure testing in '08 because of my wife's health and we all know about primers in '09. I have 10K worth of the caps on the shelf now so I'm not so spooked of popping them. Started to dust off my records and trying to figure out where I stopped last but I do want to get back into testing this cartridge.

Nice looking rifle Ted! Here is my 1953 Marlin 336A, it does sport a Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5X32 scope.

Here is a good place for me to start. Some very precise drawings from my chamber casts. Got to go shoot, will return.

RD's 336A with .311" bullet at 2.47 COAL

RD's 336A with .311" bullet at 2.545 COAL

RD's 336A with .311" bullet and Starline brass at 2.53 COAL

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:22 pm

I'll be watching for your results Michael. Is that the rifle we were shooting with the pressure trace equiptment?

How is your lovely lady doing these days? All is going well I hope.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:31 pm

TedH wrote:Is that the rifle we were shooting with the pressure trace equiptment?

How is your lovely lady doing these days? All is going well I hope.

Thanks for asking Ted, Dianna is still having a tough time with the primary CNS vasculitus, something that will always be with her. She uses prednisone (steroids) to suppress her immune system and that complicates a lot of things. The toughest thing is the depression that comes with steroid use. She will be on anti-depressants as long as she lives. The good thing is that as long as she's on "happy" pills she doesn't care how many guns I buy or how much I hunt!

That is the rifle, I really haven't shot it much since you were here. The 308MX got in the way as did other cast bullet projects. I hope I can come up with a suitable load real quick as I would like to deer hunt with it in the next couple of weeks. When I dropped the work on this rifle, I was working with the Federal brass at 2.47" and not getting the results I wanted. I did a little more trouble shooting with Tom Myers software and my next step is to try the same brass at 2.545" which seats the bullet deeper in the throat/leade.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:27 pm

I had a .30/30 AI for years and never had any feeding problems with the case.

I don't however like the idea of depending on the case to contain bolt thrust. The .30/30 case is not especially strong or thick at the head. Almost all guns have at least a little headspace. Some, especially rear locked ones, like leverguns experience a little bolt setback upon firing. This is what causes thinning of they case forward of the web. Cases are intended to hold the components together and to create a gas seal, primarily by radial expansion. They were never intended to act as a linear stress support, a supplement to the lugs. If one is loading rounds to pressures so high the standard .30/30 can not contain them one should not be using them in a .30/30 AI.

Much of the improved ballistics of the .30/30 AI is due to the fact that many reloaders load to +P levels. Ackley himself was very optimistic in the ballistics he attributed to his wildcats. One must understand that he did not have a way to test the pressures involved and could only guess at them.
If one loads the .30/30 and .30/30 AI to the same 42,000 psi there will be very little difference in performance certainly none that the game will notice.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:56 pm

Here's my Marlin 336:

and the win 94 with Numrich barrel, etc.:

Here's the reamer that I used on both:

Some test loads ready to go:

Had a target to show too but I can't get the pic to post...

I use Lee's 30-30 AI 40 degree die set - fireform with mild cast boolit loads - which are pretty accurate in thier own right...

My Winchester likes 40 grains of W748 under the Speer 150 FN bullet but that's too much for the Marlin - the only difference between the two is the rifling - both should have identical chambers. I gather that the microgroove rifling builds pressure faster than the ballard type cut rifling in the Numrich barrel...

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:27 pm

O.S.O.K. , Where did you get the reamer? Who made it?
Any more info or tips on reaming the chamber? It looks like the reamer has no cutting edges at the rim area so it will stop by itself when at proper depth. Yes/No ??

I have been thinking of doing one just for a new toy.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:59 am

Chuck 100 yd wrote:It looks like the reamer has no cutting edges at the rim area so it will stop by itself when at proper depth. Yes/No ??

I see the stop Chuck, look at a point about midway on the reamer.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:07 am

BAGTIC wrote:Much of the improved ballistics of the .30/30 AI is due to the fact that many reloaders load to +P levels. Ackley himself was very optimistic in the ballistics he attributed to his wildcats. One must understand that he did not have a way to test the pressures involved and could only guess at them.
If one loads the .30/30 and .30/30 AI to the same 42,000 psi there will be very little difference in performance certainly none that the game will notice.

I REALLY agree with this. Shooting with pressure trace equipment, I see very, very little difference between the parent cartridge and the AI when shooting to a given PSI such as the 42.0 KPSI. Ackley blew guns up to establish limits, his writing works had lots of pictures of little bits of rifles. He would place a rifle butt inside a tire with the forearm outside the tire and pull the trigger with a cord. A lot different than shooting the rifle with pressure trace equipment.

I've decided to deer hunt with my 336A, so I started to work with Varget yesterday simply because it is a safe powder. Velocity and pressure flatten rather than exceed unsafe values within the confines of the AI case. I'm on my way to work so more later.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:49 am

Chuck you can buy the reamer from Midway or Brownells. You can also rent one from Elk Ridge Reamers.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:26 am

Bucks Owin had a bad turn of luck and got behind the 8 ball. He has since squared things with folks at Cast Boolits and is an official stand up guy. So, let not bring up the past anymore. Thanks one and all.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:39 am

Charles

did you cross post or something?

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:38 am

Don McDowell wrote: Charles did you cross post or something?

It's on the first page of this thread.

Byron