950-ish rounds through the Mossberg 464 and...

[handyrandyrc]

I was wrong, guys. Had headspace re-checked and it falls within range. Good to go!

[iceman]

Interesting . Keep us informed of Mossberg's reaction.

[cnjarvis]

Couple of questions:
1) What were you using to check headspace?
2) What was the headspace when new, unfired?

I don't see how a standard pressure 30-30 load could cause this issue inside 1K rounds regardless of how fast you went through them and I don't think the re-chambering did anything either. Even the 50 rounds of AI shouldn't have done it IMO but I'm not a gunsmith...

[Hobie]

I thank you for posting this. Please, do keep us informed.

[handyrandyrc]

30-30 empty round with shim stock was my poor man's headspace gauge.

It swallowed .075" of rim no problem. Like I said, it would ALMOST close on .080" of rim.

If it only ate .070" of rim, and failed to close on .075", I'd call it good enough to shoot still.

I don't know what headspace was when I got it brand new. I did not increase headspace when re-chambering to AI, I was VERY careful of that.

[Don McDowell]

What ai loads were you using?

What on earth would prompt you to run a sporting grade rifle with so many rounds so fast that you can't touch either the action or the barrel

[cnjarvis]

Since we don't know what headspace was to start with I don't see how we can conclude that the shooting is what caused the headspace issue. Without a baseline measurement, we don't know that the rifle was in spec. at the outset. Keep us posted. I'm interested in what they say as well.

[handyrandyrc]

What ai loads were you using?

What on earth would prompt you to run a sporting grade rifle with so many rounds so fast that you can't touch either the action or the barrel

the AI testing? 32, 33, 34, 35 grains of H335 - 165 grain bullet. 10 rounds each. = 50 AI rounds

a couple hundred rounds were Trail Boss 9 grain plinker loads - 120 grain plinkers. = 250 running count

A couple boxes of Factory Federal 170-grain ammo. = 290 running count

Probably 90% of the total rest of the rounds fired were 28 grains of H335 - 165 grain bullet. I tried from 24 up to 30 grains of H335 (10 rounds each = 70 rounds testing), and found 28gr. to be the best. I loaded up hundreds and hundreds of the 28gr. H335 load. Also every one of the last 180 rounds were this 28 grain load with a 165-grain bullet. = 950-ish running count

[2ndovc]

Since we don't know what headspace was to start with I don't see how we can conclude that the shooting is what caused the headspace issue. Without a baseline measurement, we don't know that the rifle was in spec. at the outset. Keep us posted. I'm interested in what they say as well.

Does it really matter?
A ruined rifle in less than 1000 rounds?
I've run more than that through a 100 year old Winchester 94 without a single failure.


It's a pathetic performance from a new firearm.


jb

[Don McDowell]

Given the rediculous amount of stress you put on that gun before you went into lala land with those excessive ai loads you may want to thank Mossberg for building such a tough rifle.

[Sixgun]

I smell an Obama. Today's metal won't give in to create excessive headspace with so few rounds. In all fairness to Mossberg, its a poor test as measurements with the correct tools were not taken before or after the test. Nothing personal
I might have believed it had the gun had been Italian junk, but even those guys are beginning to get it right. We have to stick up for Mossberg, as we need all of the American manufacturers we can get. ------------Sixgun

[cnjarvis]

Since we don't know what headspace was to start with I don't see how we can conclude that the shooting is what caused the headspace issue. Without a baseline measurement, we don't know that the rifle was in spec. at the outset. Keep us posted. I'm interested in what they say as well.

Does it really matter?
A ruined rifle in less than 1000 rounds?
I've run more than that through a 100 year old Winchester 94 without a single failure.


It's a pathetic performance from a new firearm.


jb

I believe that it does. How do we know that the headspace issue was not a pre existing condition if no measurements were taken before shooting began? For all we know, it was alrady excessive.

[gundownunder]

Sounds like the bulk of your loads are within the reasonable load limit of the 30-30.
Lee lists 30.5 grains H335 as max behind a 170 grain jacketed so your load is well below at 28 behind 165.
Admittedly the lever action rifle was never designed to be a submachinegun but still I would not expect it to wear out the rifle in a single shooting session of extra hard use.
It will be interesting to see what Mossberg have to say, although they may choose to wipe their hands of the whole thing as the rifle has been modified to AI, presumably without their approval.
As someone else pointed out, the headspace may not be different from when the rifle was new, we will never know. If Mossberg are willing to look at the rifle they may find a cause that you missed.
Keep us posted.

[handyrandyrc]

Given the rediculous amount of stress you put on that gun before you went into lala land with those excessive ai loads you may want to thank Mossberg for building such a tough rifle.

Anyone have a copy of Quickload that could run some numbers and give us an estimate on pressure for my AI loads? I know it may not even be near correct from where things are in the real world, but I'd like to see what I may have run up against. These are loads I got from other AI shooters -- William Iorg has been shooting these loads for quite a good bit.

[Don McDowell]

Working off of the pressure data presented in Lyman 49 and Hogdons the 32 gr load would of been maximum, if you stayed close Ackleys 5% over the parent cartridges . Even there it would of been running probably in excess of 40K. By the time you slammed the other 40 thru there things had to be getting severely stressed at the 36 gr level.


















.

[handyrandyrc]

35gr. was the maximum I ever ran through the rifle, like I said in the initial post. Anyone have a copy of Quickload that can assist?

I had thought that the purpose of doing AI was to increase internal capacity, therefore running less pressure compared to the same load in a 30-30 chamber. You can get more velocity from a bit more powder at the same pressure as a maximum 30-30 load. I realize I pushed things beyond that.

33.6gr. would be 5% over 32 grains.

35.2gr. is 10% -- so maybe I went almost 10% over maximum published load for 30-30. However, I am not shooting this through a normal 30-30 chamber. The chamber has increased capacity from being 'Improved'. I'm not saying my loads were within range, quite the contrary. Do you really believe I was hitting 60k PSI with that load?

Even there it would of been running probably in excess of 40K.

SAAMI maximum for 30-30 is 43k PSI, so why the worry of being over 40k in your comments?

[handyrandyrc]

Oh yes, also forgot to mention. These 165 grain bullets are Ranch Dog cast boolits, hard cast but much softer (and therefore less pressure) than copper clad guys.

[Don McDowell]

Oh yes, also forgot to mention. These 165 grain bullets are Ranch Dog cast boolits, hard cast but much softer (and therefore less pressure) than copper clad guys.

Wrong. Get yourself a Lyman Reload Manual.Go to Hogdons web, Look carefully at the pressures. Those that think pressures are less with cast bullets will soon find the folly in that thinking.

335 is a pretty fast burning powder, its faster than 4895. The faster burning powders use less case capacity , the more case capacity they take up the higher pressures rise, when they peak out they get irratic, and can achieve dangerous pressures suddenly without warning.
While a chronograph only tells you velocity, its better to use one when testing cartridges like the ai.You start at what you were shooting before the rechamber, add the 5% and shoot over the chrony, even the piddly 2 grs will make a good bit of difference in velocity. When you hit 200 fps over what the parent cartidge ran, you know you're crowding the fire wall. Any gains past that you're running into danger territory, and to continue risks both the gun and the shooter.

[TedH]

Oh yes, also forgot to mention. These 165 grain bullets are Ranch Dog cast boolits, hard cast but much softer (and therefore less pressure) than copper clad guys.

I was down at Ranch Dog's place one time when he was shooting some 30-30 AI loads with a strain gauge on his rifle. We were shooting published loads that were thought to be safe loads in the Ackley version, with CAST bullets mind you, that were in fact well over 50K psi. It seems that when you approach max loads pressures increase exponentially and can get out of hand in a hurry if you're not careful. Best rule of thumb to keep your rifle and limbs intact is to load two grains over max 30-30 loads.

[handyrandyrc]

Wrong. Get yourself a Lyman Reload Manual.Go to Hogdons web, Look carefully at the pressures. Those that think pressures are less with cast bullets will soon find the folly in that thinking.

Do you REALLY, TRULY believe that? If I take the EXACT SAME powder charge, with exact same weight bullet on top, seated the same, shape the same. However, there is one difference -- one is jacketed copper, and the other is hard cast lead.

Which yields more velocity? We're talking the SAME CHARGE. That cast bullet will win every time. And it'll do it with less pressure. Pressure raises more obturating a copper jacketed projectile than a hard cast piece of lead. What happens when we use a SOLID copper projectile? PRESSURE EVEN RAISES MORE!!! The harder the object to obturate, the more pressure has to raise to overcome it.

Am I missing something?

[handyrandyrc]

I appreciate everyone's advice, and perhaps I was running too hot. But do you really think I was at 60k PSI?

[Don McDowell]

Wrong. Get yourself a Lyman Reload Manual.Go to Hogdons web, Look carefully at the pressures. Those that think pressures are less with cast bullets will soon find the folly in that thinking.

Do you REALLY, TRULY believe that? If I take the EXACT SAME powder charge, with exact same weight bullet on top, seated the same, shape the same. However, there is one difference -- one is jacketed copper, and the other is hard cast lead.

Which yields more velocity? We're talking the SAME CHARGE. That cast bullet will win every time. And it'll do it with less pressure. Pressure raises more obturating a copper jacketed projectile than a hard cast piece of lead. What happens when we use a SOLID copper projectile? PRESSURE EVEN RAISES MORE!!! The harder the object to obturate, the more pressure has to raise to overcome it.

Am I missing something?

Best I can tell you is go look at a copy of the Lyman 48th or 49th manual at your local gunshop.
Better yet, you can do it right now, go to Hogdons web site, look at the reloading data contained there. Lead or jacketed the pressures are not that much different. f
IF you have a reloading manual of somekind available, just flip it open to any centefire rifle cartridge. Look at any bullet weight and the starting charge, make note of the velocity. Then follow that line up 2 grs. Look at the velocity, It's going to be 200 fps give or take.

[Glenn]

Excessive rim space in a 30-30 AI chamber is no problem. You need to set your FL die to just barely kiss a fire formed case shoulder and it will work just like a rimless bottlenecked case, headspacing on the shoulder. Which is what you want to do anyway. Even in a standard 30-30 the FL die should be set to just kiss the sholder of a fire-formed case.
The 30-30 has loose headspace ("rimspace") dimensions to start with. According to the SAAMI prints, the chamber tolerance is .063" to .070", as already stated. The case rim tolerances are .063" minus .010". So a minimum rim and a maximum chamber could have .017" of slop.
Now look at the shoulder. Maximum chamber is 1.5197" to the .375" diameter point on the shoulder, and minimum cartridge length to the same point is 1.4724", or potentially .0473" of slop! I don't know what a FL die will push the shoulder back to, but I'm sure there's plenty of space in there. It's a wonder the cases last as long as they do, with the shoulder blowing forward and then getting sized back every shot.
While the "excessive headspace (rimspace)" is - in and of itself - not a problem, how it became excessive could be! If there's setback or peening, that's a different issue.
Glenn

[Chuck 100 yd]

Good point Glenn. I use a case length gauge and just don`t set the shoulder back more than .002 . I have .30-30 brass that has shot cast loads over 10 times and when checked for trim length none have grown more than a couple thou. I trimmed than all this last time just to make them all uniform and the trimmer only cleaned a couple mouths up and hardly touched most. .30-30 case life is a non issue to me.

[Glenn]

Chuck,
Too bad this kind of info isn't in reloading manuals. I learned a lot of these tricks from George Nonte's and John Wooter's books.
Glenn

[Nath]

I don't see them loads as excessive myself besides guns are proofed at 70% plus on top of standard pressure. Slack primer pockets and 4thou plus heads would tell you not to mention ringed cases!
If it is accuracy problems how about making some shims to shoot with in place and see what happens!!

Nath.

[Ranch Dog]

the AI testing? 32, 33, 34, 35 grains of H335 - 165 grain bullet. 10 rounds each. = 50 AI rounds

The max load for H335 in the parent cartridge is 30.5-grains. My pressure testing with the TLC311-165-RF indicated that 32.0 grains developed 44.8K PSI!

Based on my extensive pressure testing Marlin's, I've come up with a pretty good pressure calculator. I can estimate a max chamber pressure with the Hodgdon powder and then verify it. From that I back down and start my pressure testing that will build my charts. I could start low and then work up but this set, with the knowledge I have gained, saves a lot of shooting at light loads that would not even be on my charts.

I had done the math and shot my max loads with the TLC311-165-RF in prep for the real work and then my wife got sick and I just never got back to the task of developing load charts for this cartridge.



I shoot 10-shot strings but only shot one with the BL-C(2). The shot, scared the hell out of me. The "bang" told me something wasn't right. I blew the primer out of the pocket to the depth of the headspace but the case did not stick in the chamber. I pulled the bullets and weighed the charges and they were right on the money, for this work I check the loads with both a balance beam and electronic scale. Pressure testing has taught me that BL-C(2) is a very volatile powder and small increases over max go an extremely long way. I shoot on very hot days, as close to 100° as I can get, because that is the country I live in. That is very important when working with some powders.

I have my own thoughts about the 30-30AI and I personally would not exceed the max of the parent cartridge without establishing the loads with pressure trace equipment. I think this is extremely important in that my search has not revealed any pressure tested data including the Ackley source.

As far as pressure vs. cast/jacket bullets go. There are a lot of factors to consider. One that interests me, is what is the bore and groove diameters of the 464? What diameter are you sizing the TLC311 to? If the 464 is tight, .3080 through .3090", pushing a .311" bullet through the barrel would increase pressure.

I'm also of the thought that can't figure out why you would want to punish a rifle like you have? If it needs a good home, I will pay shipping!

[Ranch Dog]

As a note to my post above, I am just throwing my load records out there. This is not a complete work by any stretch. You are looking at data from 31 shots. I would expect to shoot about 400 rounds of ammo to completely detail the work for the specified powders before I could actually say "XX.X-grains = XX.X KPSI". I hope to get back to this work soon as I really enjoy the shooting.

Back to the 464, my search on this forum brought me to this topic, has anybody heard any news on the "other chamberings" promised during the announcements last year? I know they have the 22 rimfire coming as well as the pistol gripped version of the centerfire but I'm interested in what cartridges they might consider adding.