357/44 Bain & Davis Rossi Puma

[onegoodshot]

Greetings, hopefully I can learn/contribute a little bit here.
Toby posted on Singleactions.com and I thought I'd check out the site.
My first lever gun. Got it because it was so different.

Here's a few pics of one you may not have seen before.
Early model 92 357 B&D. Started as a 44 and B&D did the work.



I tried a few shots with the Hornady 158gr HP's and Acc #9 powder to fireform. It was a little stickey to open.
I'd really like some suggestions on a slower powder to take adv of the 16" barrel. (4198 or 3031 range???)
I have some 4227 as well.

I picked up a 15" encore barrel this week and 100 pieces of once fired brass so that will give me a little more to compare the chroney results with. I work Saturday, but hope to reload and shoot on Sunday.

ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Thanks,
Joe

[Hobie]

Lil'Gun and H110/W296 should work a treat. Stick with the 158 gr. bullets. The Hornady 158 gr. XTP FP and Speer Gold Dot should be best. You might be able to use the 180 gr. XTP or Rem. 180 gr. SJHP (which was designed for the .357 Max.).

[AJMD429]

Welcome to Leverguns, and post any and all 'range reports' you can muster. I doubt I'm alone in wondering what this 'modern-day .38-40' can do.

[onegoodshot]

I have a pair of Ruger Buckeyes 38/40's. One has been tweeked a little (opened throats ect) and I have some pretty good 180gr Sierra JHP data.

[AJMD429]

The thing I kind of like about the .357/44 B&D is the ease of modifying a common factory rifle to get it done. Looking for a .38-40 or .44-40 some other similar gun gets costly and options restricted, vs. all the .44 Mags out there you can re-barrel. Plus, loading 'hot' ammo for 'obsolete' (not really) cartridges always poses the theoretical risk of blowing up an old gun - for me, since I don't have any 'vintage' .38-40's, I could get a 'modern' gun in that chambering and load as hot as I wanted.

Still, I like the .357 B&D idea, and it seems like Marlin could easily make a run of them merely by putting the .357 barrel from an 1894 on an 1894 .44 Mag receiver, with the re-boring of the chamber. No new parts.

[onegoodshot]

Got a 2nd shoot yesterday on the B&D.
Hornady 158gr HPBT
--------------Encore 15" ----------------Puma 16"

19gr AA#9----1972,1902,1896---left over from first shoot were really sticky in the Puma so I quit

18gr AA#9--1844---------------------1880
-------------1912---------------------1899----sticky and split
-------------1896---------------------1907

20gr LIl'Gun--1993---------------------2011
-------------2044---------------------2060---split
-------------1984---------------------2020

20grWin296--1902---------------------1924
-------------1893---------------------1926
-------------1899---------------------1904
---------------------------------------1915

21grWin296--2054---------------------2119
-------------2089---------------------2136
-------------2059---------------------2120

This was from a ProChro at 10'. Encore barrel is 15" not including brake (16.5" total) and had a 2.5-7 burris pistol scope.
The encore barrel seemed to love all the loads at 50 yds. All groups were sub 1.25". I wasnt shooting for groups, but after the first couple strings, I noticed how good it was shooting and got serious with the Win296 loads. The 21gr load made one hole at 50yds.

The Puma was really sticky on the first session (no chrono) using 19 gr AA#9. I only shot 3 of the 6 rounds.
18gr AA#9 the gun functioned good except on the second shot the brass ringed and split and was sticky opening.

Lil'gun also had a round split, but none of the rounds were sticky on extraction. Moving up another grain, the gun extracted good.

Win296 gave the best results in the encore and the puma. It suprised me as I was expecting it to do the worse in the longer barrels. The Puma cycled it as well as the lil gun (good, but still not as slick as an empty chamber.) I'd never shot a lever before so I dont know what to expect.

The Puma put all the rounds into a 4" group. It was almost 8 inches left and 3" high. I left the elevation alone, but dont know how to fix the windage problem. Trigger is crisp but really stout. I'm gonna stick with the 296 and make make a ramp to see where it goes from there and might p/u some 180's.
I'll try to get some pics today.

[AJMD429]

If you can't drive your rear sight to the left enough, you can mount a Williams peep but you'll need the receiver tapped. You also could for accuracy testing get a short and light scope on a B-Square mount. Both those kinds of sights may give you more adjustment options and be far easier to adjust. Unless you want the gun scoped for long term use I'd favor the Williams peep (I think FP-94 is the part/model).

Fifty yards is 1800 inches, so if your sight radius is about 18 inches, you'd find that every rear sight movement is 100 times greater at 50 yards. In that case you only need about 0.1" of rear sight to the left movement. Moving your front sight (to the right) or moving both sights less, vs. moving the rear on WAY to the side, can be less distracting (in terms of the sights not being 'where the receiver is'), but it doesn't look like your front sight moves.

This is the Williams FP on a Puma. Actually did it myself (scraped the side up when I broke a tap, though... )



Here's some pics of the B-Square scope setup.

[Griff]

and Welcome to the forum. Mighty interesting looking project... even tho' it's not something I'm interested in... but learnin' is good for one... so I'll read with interest how your loads develop.

Good luck, and again, welcome... thanks for postin' some pics.

[pokey]

welcome to the fire,

heard alot about those b&d conversions, never seen one.
be interesting to see just how this shakes out.

good first post[pics!].

[NonPCnraRN]

I think Paco Kelly necked down a 41 mag to 30 cal. That gave me the idea of necking down the 454 to 30 cal for a cartridge that would function in a 92. If the 454 Puma was used with a 30-30 barrel it would be interesting to see what velocity you could get utilizing 454 pressures.

[Wrangler John]

I'll bet that .44/.357 B&D works better in a rifle than it did in the Ruger Blackhawk. I had a .357 Magnum/9mm convertible Blackhawk cylinder rechambered by Bain & Davis in the '80's. Thought it might be good for IHMSA Silhouette shooting, but it never panned out. Neck was too short, shoulder too tapered, and the dang thing stuck cases like super glue or locked up the cylinder. Went on to other silly weird cartridges such as the .357 Super Mag that Remington renamed the "Maximum," and the obscure .375 Super Mag in a Dan Wesson revolver that doubles as a horse anchor (gotta weigh four pounds). If you want a bunch of neat necked down wildcat cartridges to amuse yourselves on cold winter nights check out Gary Reeder's web site - http://www.reedercustomguns.com/informa ... ridges.htm - he tinkers with lever action conversions for the stout of heart. He converted that Blackhawk into a five shot .480 Ruger for me, proving that I have absolutely no sense.

[Hobie]

Reading about your case splits I wondered what make brass you were using and if you had annealed before or after necking down. I think that is your problem rather than pressure. BUT, I'm trying to diagnose long distance and that is far from ideal. Have you annealed?

[Ysabel Kid]

Welcome to Leverguns, and post any and all 'range reports' you can muster. I doubt I'm alone in wondering what this 'modern-day .38-40' can do.

Nope - you are not alone Doc!

Welcome to the fire onegoodshot!!!

[Swampman]

I had a 10" Contender chamber in the .357/44 B&D. I took a deer & a hog with it. I used heavy bullets & W296. Great cartridge!

[COSteve]

Deleted

[onegoodshot]

I had pruchased 50 pieces of virgin starlinebrass but was told on another forum that the starline didnt resize well for the B&D and give a good seal. The Remington brass was unknown firing in the encore, but I didnt have any problems emerge from shooting them in the encore. I hope to play with it a little more ovver the long weekend if I can get the work in the hayfield done.

BTW I did find a 375 Big Bore w/one of the williams sights. It will be heading my way next week.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I had pruchased 50 pieces of virgin starlinebrass but was told on another forum that the starline didnt resize well for the B&D and give a good seal. The Remington brass was unknown firing in the encore, but I didnt have any problems emerge from shooting them in the encore. I hope to play with it a little more ovver the long weekend if I can get the work in the hayfield done.

BTW I did find a 375 Big Bore w/one of the williams sights. It will be heading my way next week.

Howdy and welcome. I think your sticky action is the results of the shoulder of the necked down brass setting back when you shoot. This sets the breech bolt hard into the locking bolts making it hard to open. That's also why most bottle necks don't work well in a revolver. I'm betting that if the angle of the bottleneck was reduced some they would be less likely to set back as much. Make the angle more like the 44-40 and 38-40. But that would require and different reamer and starting over with a new 357 barrel and you would lose some case volume and preliminary loading would need to be reduced accordingly.

Something you might try is to just neck size. The only question then would be how hard the chamber.

[J Miller]

<snip; The Puma put all the rounds into a 4" group. It was almost 8 inches left and 3" high. I left the elevation alone, but dont know how to fix the windage problem. Trigger is crisp but really stout. I'm gonna stick with the 296 and make make a ramp to see where it goes from there and might p/u some 180's.
I'll try to get some pics today.

If you can't drive your rear sight to the left enough, > snip

onegoodshot,
To move the group to the right you need to move the rear sight to the right. Rear sight moves in the direction you want the group to go.
It's already shooting too far to the left, you don't want to make it worse.

The other thing you might check is the front sight alignment. The sight on the barrel band is a terrible idea. That band can move if bumped or if the magazine plug screw hole in the barrel is not perfectly at bottom dead center. If the front sight moves away from TDC (Top Dead Center ) even a tiny bit, your windage will suffer bad.
To adjust the windage with the front sight you move it opposite the rear sight. Move it to the left to move the group to the right. I know, it's a pain in the brain to figure it out, but when you move the front sight to the left, the barrel under it moves to the right therefore moving the group to the right.

Hope I haven't confused you too much.

Joe

[AJMD429]

It was almost 8 inches left and 3" high.

If you can't drive your rear sight to the left enough,

....oops...!

Leave it to us Libertarians, we think 'left' and 'right' are all the same...

[PaulB]

I'm betting that if the angle of the bottleneck was reduced some they would be less likely to set back as much.

Ackley found the reverse, the larger the shoulder angle the less the rearward force. What he needs is a .357/44 B&D Ackley Improved.

Actually there may be some middling angle that causes the most setback and stickiness.

Make sure your cartridges and chamber are very clean and dry. Might help...

[TX Gun Runner]

Ackley found the reverse, the larger the shoulder angle the less the rearward force. What he needs is a .357/44 B&D Ackley Improved.
Actually there may be some middling angle that causes the most setback and stickiness.
Make sure your cartridges and chamber are very clean and dry. Might help...

B&D has make 3 different designs case of the 357/44 and the latter is the best . They have played with all different kinds of angles , I don't think anyone beat it .

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I'm betting that if the angle of the bottleneck was reduced some they would be less likely to set back as much.

Ackley found the reverse, the larger the shoulder angle the less the rearward force. What he needs is a .357/44 B&D Ackley Improved.

Actually there may be some middling angle that causes the most setback and stickiness.

Make sure your cartridges and chamber are very clean and dry. Might help...

You know, I guess that does make more sense. The whole idea is to reduce brass flowing forward so if it's gota make a sharper turn that should slow it more.

Ackley found the reverse, the larger the shoulder angle the less the rearward force. What he needs is a .357/44 B&D Ackley Improved.
Actually there may be some middling angle that causes the most setback and stickiness.
Make sure your cartridges and chamber are very clean and dry. Might help...

B&D has make 3 different designs case of the 357/44 and the latter is the best . They have played with all different kinds of angles , I don't think anyone beat it .

Is that the one shown here?




On a side note, for those that are considering this conversion. The 92 has two frame configurations. One is for the larger case calibers like 38-40, 44-40, 44mag and 45lc. The smaller case frames are for 25-20-32-20 and 357m. The most notable difference is the mag tube diameter but there are internal differences as well. For this conversion you need the larger frame size with a 357 barrel.

[Griff]

For this conversion you need the larger frame size with a 357 barrel.

Are barrel threads the same for both frame sizes?

[cas]

Very nice... that's something I always wanted to do, but figured I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

For this conversion you need the larger frame size with a 357 barrel.

Are barrel threads the same for both frame sizes?

The barrel threads are the same for both large and small cal Rossi depending on the year it was made. Rossi now has two different stub dia. The current guns all cals from about 2000 or whenever they came out with the 454 have .750" dia stubs but the older guns had .780" stubs. The thread count is the same.

[AJMD429]

Very nice... that's something I always wanted to do, but figured I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.

A handy little carbine like that in a .357-Max (or close) power level would be a very serious contender for the "go-to" gun around our place...

[BAGTIC]

I believe the .357 B&D would have been better with less body taper, slightly steeper shoulder and longer neck.

That said looking at the ballistics cited here from the 16 inch carbine I would say get a 20 inch barrel and forget the B&D. A standard .357 in a 20 inch barrel comes so close that the difference is not worth considering.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I believe the .357 B&D would have been better with less body taper, slightly steeper shoulder and longer neck.

That said looking at the ballistics cited here from the 16 inch carbine I would say get a 20 inch barrel and forget the B&D. A standard .357 in a 20 inch barrel comes so close that the difference is not worth considering.

There may be more power potential there with the B&D but the freezing of the action would probably just get worse,too. If you look at the Buffalo Bore ammo spec you will see they are realizing 2100 FPS with the 158 from an 18.5" marlin now.

[Hobie]

I asked Steve the "how much" question and I'd say it really isn't worth it. As he said, 158 at 2100 is attainable. Lengthen to .360DW length like Tycer has done and there you are.

[AJMD429]

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has yet posted a "Gee, just get a .41 Magnum" post...

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has yet posted a "Gee, just get a .41 Magnum" post...

I'm kinda thinking 357mag necked to 32. That could be accomplished with just a reline. Call it a 32-20 magnum. A little more case cap and a stronger case, too.

[Hobie]

Paco did that, actually a .30 IIRC.

[blackhawk44]

Hey Onegood, with careful case forming I don't believe you should have to "fireform". Your case sizing technique could also well be the cause of your cases being a little "sticky" to eject with full loads.

Having experienced the same problem in other levers, such as Sav 99s and BLRs, I believe that you need to treat the resizing of your brass as if it were a rimless round. Instead of adjusting your sizing die to bump the shell holder (like a straight case), the B&D shoulder should be sized slowly and carefully until the empty case will JUST enter the chamber fully with only light finger pressure.

I have found that sizing too much (setting the shoulder back) allows the shoulder to blow forward upon firing, as if the chamber had excess headspace, putting extra fore and aft pressure on the bolt and lugs that it normally would not receive with a straight cased round.

You might try this and let us know if it helps with the problem. Take care. BH

[onegoodshot]

I first started thinking about a levergun a few years ago when Marlin had that 41Mag Stainless Guide gun. Never have found one that I could afford. Always wanted a 38-40 but stumbled on the Bain/Davis and grabbed it because it was so unique.

Anyway, I've been shooting it some more using the 296 and havent had anymore problems. I havent cleaned the gun so there might have been oil in the chamber initially causing problems with the AA loads. I might make one up to see if they are still sticking. I actually floated the rear sight over and got it right on the first try. Much more happy with the gun now. Functions reliably, shoots where I aim, but the trigger is quite a bit heavy for my liking.

The addiction continues with a near mint 375. It has been shot now.
My wife says I was born 100 years too late..........


And a few of my hay burners last week.

[Thunder50]

Hmmm, how about taking the 445supermag and necking it down, like a b&d case and put it in a 336?