OT-Springfield 1873 Trapdoor Question

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:22 pm

Can a person safely shoot smokeless powder rounds in these rifles. I have a chance to by on seriel#87XXX. It has been refinished but I know nothing of this rifle other than it looks nice. It is 45-70 and looks to be in very good shape. I have a Browning Grade 1 1886 in this same caliber and shoot 405 grain lead thru it. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:24 pm

I wouldn't - but that's me. Loading manuals used to carry the reduced loads suitable for Springfields and other weak/old actions.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:39 pm

People do but to me that takes the fun out of it. Plus in my expirience the fastest way to break some thing is to use it in a way it wasn't designed for. Get your self some BP and have fun.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:45 pm

I guess I have to think about it some. I have never re-loaded before and while it is something I want to start (especially with my 45-70) I am still a little nervous. To tell the truth I have always stuck with Military calibers for most of my weapons .308, .223, 9mm, .45 etc... Now that I have gotten into levers I have a .44 mag a .357mag, 30-30, 300 savage and the 45-70. I buy ammo from many sources but it all seems to be going way up. maybe the reloading thing is the way to go.

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

The Winchester and Remington 405gr loads are SUPPOSED to be safe in these rifles.

But, with the cost of a Trapdoor, and my health at risk...

A Lee hand press and a can of Pyrodex is how I started. Good luck.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:57 pm

cutter wrote:The Winchester and Remington 405gr loads are SUPPOSED to be safe in these rifles.

But, with the cost of a Trapdoor, and my health at risk...

A Lee hand press and a can of Pyrodex is how I started. Good luck.

It looks great and he is asking $1000. It is a little high but I have seen others on the net that look worse going to more. And I HAVE been wanting to get into reloading any way

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:09 pm

I hope everything works out for you. Let me know if you get it, I have a few thrice fired cases I can send you. They should be fine for Pyrodex.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:38 pm

cutter wrote:I hope everything works out for you. Let me know if you get it, I have a few thrice fired cases I can send you. They should be fine for Pyrodex.

Thanks! I will get back to you!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:55 pm

Smokeless powder had not been invented, and the steels in use back then were a lot weaker than modern steel. Even with reduced smokeless loads, with a similar pressure spike to BP, you could be risking a lot. If you really need to go with smokeless, I'd recommend mild loads of AA5744 or IMR4198 to start.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:10 pm

There are a lot of published smokeless loads, especially for the 45-70 Trapdoor.

longarm4146 · Post by **longarm4146** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:37 pm

been shooting both my trapdoors for years with 5744, got data from Trapdoor Shooters site...it is filled with data for BP and smokeless......I use a mild load of 25.5 grs 5744 with a soft cast 405 bullet...Good luck

P.S. it really is the most fun with 60-70 grs Goex...just my 2 cents worth

morgan in nm · Post by **morgan in nm** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:00 pm

You can shoot smokeless loads in a 73 trapdoor but from what I have been told, you have to keep the pressures down and use a filler. Another thing is that you shouldn't shoot jacketed bullets through it because the rifling cannot take it.

Good luck, Morgan.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:30 pm

I shoot 'em all the time! Smokeless and BP Cartridge. You even have a few manufacturers that have readily available "Trapdoor" pressure smokeless (they will say on the box, usually also say 1250fps performance). Goex makes two different BP cartridges, one Pinnacle and the other a BP substitute.

Personally, I load my own smokeless is 29.5 grains of H4198 behind a 405 grain, .459 sized LFN or 65 grains of FFg with a .030 veggie wad behind the .459 LFN, or 70 grains of FFg behind a 405 grain .459 Hollow Base LFN (so far best results with BP). I'll be honest, the smokeless is more forgiving to ambient weather conditions, whereas the BP loads performance changes with the weather.

By the way, check the bore, alot of bores have been shot out by people shooting jacketed bullets in original TD's. If the rifle is in good condition I would think about having the barrel sleeved. Bob Hoyt in Pennsylvainia does an excellent job.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:31 pm

I have a carbine with a serial number in the 16,xxx range (1st quarter of 1873 manufacture) and have gotten away with loading IMR Trail Boss using published data from their site. Good accuracy but just no fun to shoot. Re: the use of fillers - that will get a good pro & con discussion going here. All I can say is I have a friend who ringed the chamber of his .45-70 Sharps using Unique with Kapok (sp?) filler. He had shot this load thousands of times until the last one got him.

My go-to load is 55gns of Goex pushing a 405gn pill (trying to copy the original Army carbine load). I buy lubed wads from Junior and I can shoot all day with no cleaning, breath tubes, etc. Accuracy stays great after the first few fouling shots and there is a nice star pattern of grease at the muzzle.

Here's my son shooting 55gns of BP:

win40-82 · Post by **win40-82** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:48 pm

Check around for a better deal. That's pretty high for a refinished rifle. Can be had much cheaper in my area, Pacific NW.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:09 am

Geez Tom - your new avatar scared the stuff out of me!

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:27 am

Old Time Hunter wrote:I shoot 'em all the time! Smokeless and BP Cartridge. You even have a few manufacturers that have readily available "Trapdoor" pressure smokeless (they will say on the box, usually also say 1250fps performance). Goex makes two different BP cartridges, one Pinnacle and the other a BP substitute.

Personally, I load my own smokeless is 29.5 grains of H4198 behind a 405 grain, .459 sized LFN or 65 grains of FFg with a .030 veggie wad behind the .459 LFN, or 70 grains of FFg behind a 405 grain .459 Hollow Base LFN (so far best results with BP). I'll be honest, the smokeless is more forgiving to ambient weather conditions, whereas the BP loads performance changes with the weather.

By the way, check the bore, alot of bores have been shot out by people shooting jacketed bullets in original TD's. If the rifle is in good condition I would think about having the barrel sleeved. Bob Hoyt in Pennsylvainia does an excellent job.

Those are indeed beautiful rifles. Thanks for the info. I need to check the rifle more for the info you are talking about.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:29 am

win40-82 wrote:Check around for a better deal. That's pretty high for a refinished rifle. Can be had much cheaper in my area, Pacific NW.

thanks I will continue looking.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:47 am

Ysabel Kid wrote:Geez Tom - your new avatar scared the stuff out of me!

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:54 am

Coupla thoughts for you...
There are plenty of time-tested, well proven mild smokeless loads out here for a Trapdoor. If you end up with an original..stay away from jacketed bullets. Get a copy of Wolf's book.."Loading Cartridges for the Original 45/70 Sprigfield Rifle and Carbine". There's a WEALTH of good info. in that book, even if you're going to stay w/ smokeless powder.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:38 am

+1 on the price.

That's pretty steep for a re-work. You can bag a decent original for @ $700. or less. I sold a nice 1884 w/ a ramrod bayonet @ 2 years ago for $ 725. Wasn't perfect but it hadn't been messd with.

Dakota Mike · Post by **Dakota Mike** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:22 am

Call here all he deals in is trapdoors, very nice individuals to talk to.
http://www.trapdoors.com/