OT wanting to build a gunroom/closet/safe

[handirifle]

I listed all three cause I'm not sure what to call it. Wanting to build a room in my garage. It will be more like a closet, actually, but I am wanting build it in sections.

I do not want to just go out and buy a safe, cause to get one I can walk into would cost way more than I can think of, much less afford. The "rro" will be approx 4'x5', maybe 6 wide, with a swing out closet size door, maybe 30" wide.

Oh, yes, before I begin. Having this poured in place isn't an option either. Even though the house is underconstruction, there will be no way to pour concrete in from the top of any forms I might be able to make, as the garage roof will be in place.

My thoughts are some sort of reinforced panels to construct the walls out of. Possibly some sort of reinforced concrete, but lifting them in place will be a major issue. I have been searching the net high and low for suitable materials, but am unsure of total strength/durability.

Here's some of the ideas rattling around in my head.

1. concrete "backer board" with heavy guage wire mesh glued to it. About three layers of this sandwiched together, and maybe glued with construction grade glue. inside and outside covered with 1/2" plywood and 1/2" drywall. total thickness approx 3.5"

Heavy

2. homemade cement panels, about 1" thick, made by laying wire mesh in form and pouring cement over the mesh. A 1" panel would have two layers of wire in it. This would be stood up one at a time and have two or three of these also glued together. I also thought of layering any of these together by sandwiching 1/8" luan type plywood between them with the previously mentioned glue. The plywood more for resistance to sledgehammering through. inside and outside covered with 1/2" plywood and 1/2" drywall. total thickness approx 3.5"

Heaviest

3. layers of 1/2" plywood, glued, with wire mesh between them and inside and outside covered with 1/2" drywall. total thickness approx 3.5"

Easiest, lightest

Door and lock design, yet undetermined. As well as roof.

Ideas? Suggestions?

[Gobblerforge]

Hey there HR. Interesting ideas on the safe. I like the panel idea about glueing multiple wired concrete backer board. Sounds strong and fireproof. Anything made from wood will burn and can be accessed with a simple saw. Perhaps a layer of expanded metal glued in. With todays construction adhesives, incredable things can be built on a budget.
Gobbler

[adirondakjack]

Resistance to different threats makes for different ideas.

If fire and simple theft is primary, fireproof sheetrock with a layer of steel "lathe" as used in stucco walls would deter all but the most determined thieves and provide some time in a fire. Frame it out of 2X4 with the above outside, then put whatever ya like on the inside

Poured councrete may be out, but PUMPED concrete is possible, though expensive by the time ya build forms and fill em.

Pre-cast concrete panels perhaps 2' wide by full height are another option, with lathe or wire reinforcement. You'd use a come along or two and the roof structure to hoist em from horizontal to vertical, and "tapcon" screws to fasten them to a stud frame.....

OR, simply lay up 4" block (space is a concern, so use 4 instead of 8"). Simple, easy, relatively good for fire, and unless really determined, a thief sees cement walls and says fuggedaboudit. A steel door (or a wood door armored with steel mesh and concrete backer board) SIX good hinges and two deadbolts, and yer gonna deter all but the professional thief.....

[Pete44ru]

While your three choices might be "half-safe" when located inside the residence, Handi - especially the basement - there's no way I would store my firearms in a detached garage, w/o heavier construction.

While concrete CAN be poured into walls with the roof already on the garage via pumping (a common method) -

a more viable substitute would be 8"x8"x12" concrete blocks with steel re-inforcing rods inserted vertically through the core(s) every 2'-3' along the walls and the cores filled as the courses are laid - with the same mortor used to lay them, or a batch of cement mixed up & held wet for each day's 3-4 courses.

I would additionally use a steel exterior-type household door with a window delete, deadbolt lock and use steel door jambs.

[EDIT: It looks like I oughta change my handle to "slo-fingers". ]

.

[madman4570]

While your three choices might be "half-safe" when located inside the residence, Handi - especially the basement - there's no way I would store my firearms in a detached garage, w/o heavier construction.

While concrete CAN be poured into walls with the roof already on the garage via pumping (a common method) -

a more viable substitute would be 8"x8"x12" concrete blocks with steel re-inforcing rods inserted vertically through the core(s) every 2'-3' along the walls and the cores filled as the courses are laid - with the same mortor used to lay them, or a batch of cement mixed up & held wet for each day's 3-4 courses.

I would additionally use a steel exterior-type household door with a window delete, deadbolt lock and use steel door jambs.

[EDIT: It looks like I oughta change my handle to "slo-fingers". ]

.

+1 BIG TIME on the "there's no way I would store my firearms in a detached garage, w/o heavier construction" part.

[adirondakjack]

Oh, on concrete blocks, unless reinforced, block walls with no weight on them are VERY vulnerable. Almost anybody can dismantle em, starting at the top. all ya need to do is "shock" one mortar joint and get the first block loose, and it becomes yer hammer to take out two or three more, and yer in.

[Tycer]

I've used 1/2" cable to reinforce 4" block. U-bolts on each end and all cells filled. A piece of corrugated tin on top with welded wire and 2" of concrete and rebar ells in the top cells of the block to secure it will give outstanding fire and theft deterrent. The joy of the cable is that it just bends over and the blocks slip right on.

[BenT]

I'm with Pete on the concrete block filled with rebar and cement as you go and buy a fire proof steel door. They have a metal frame . I like your idea of the wire cement board sndwich for the top. But if your not worried about fire proof. Make something that swings down from between the rafters. My father in law keeps his guns in gun cases on top of sheet of plywood in the rafters of his shed. Who's looking to steal a sheet of plywood out the rafters.

[Ysabel Kid]

What area of the country do you live in? For me a garage storage site was out of the question in the old house due to high heat and humidity common in the area. Will the room be temperature and humidity controlled?

[brucew44guns]

I didn't hear much about the cieling, or roof for this safe room. It sounds to me like you may have not considered the total cost for the various ways this project can become a reality. I hate to hire a contractor on many projects I can do myself, if I am pretty sure I can get-er-done. But you might try and get a couple cement contractors to perhaps give you a bid, on doing this with poured concrete walls and cieling cover. It could probably all be formed and poured in one pour. It's a lot of weight on your garage floor, and hopefully you specified that slab poured thick enough to take it. But that material can be pumped in for the cost of a pump truck to come and do it. The total cost might be the cheapest way in the long run, the strongest, best looking, and most secure. You might even be able to build those forms yourself, then it's just the cost of concrete, pump truck, door. Let us know what you decide to do on this. I had a 6 foot by 11 foot room poured in the basement when my house was built. All concrete, 8 inches thick, 6 inch roof on it, and steel door. $1700.00 extra for that room.

[Hillbilly]

If you go the concrete block route... does your floor have enough structure to support the weight with out adding a footing under the slab?
Full sized concrete block...slushed full of concrete or mortar and steel rod... can weigh a awful lot stacked to room height.

Sometimes security is all about "illusion".

I have a similar situation... my solution is using a panel approach built with metal stud framing.

Use the narrow 1 1/2 furring studs ... build an inner wall... and the outer wall parrallel to the inner wall. In the core area you could screw up 5/8 drywall and a layer of expanded metal. You can insulate the remaining core space.. and add a vapor barrier if needed. Finish the inner and outer walls with drywall and wood if you need durability. I put something like this in a barn corner once... and the extra wall space made a great place to hand long tools from a peg-board--- looked like a barn wall and furthered the illusion.
If you layer in the 5/8 in the core and add 1/2' (1 5/8 total) for the exposed wall... I'd expect to see at least 2 hours of fire protection.
The ceiling can be built with a panel approach like this also, I put a layer of galv sheet metal on top of my plywood deck... more for the mice than the bad guys. Kid's see 'steel' -most will back off.
Remember... unless you can lease space under the Pentagon or some such facility... all your measures can be defeated. Locks are for honest people... if you can slow the undermotivated crook down... thats about all you can do.


I'd use a big heavy steel door and frame to further the illusion... but be sure to frame the inner jamb liners with stout wood... and bolt the frame into place .

[gimdandy]

If you can weld you ought to look into tilt up concrete construction. Done quite a few over the years , FIREPROOF ,RUGGED AS ALL GET OUT,CHEAP,AND CAN DO IT ALL YOURSELF.
Make forms on concrete floor , very important to add rebar and angle iron clips in the right area for future assembly, can either pour roof in place or pour also on floor and bring in skidder and lift into place and weld to walls . It is very easy and beyond tough. It will also be rather permanent and definitely indestructible . The door will be only access, wanted or not so it's up to the builder as to it's strength and impassibility

[Idahoser]

I have no idea how useful this is, but it seems to me that the ceiling already being in place is a poor reason to exclude pouring in the concrete. Wouldn't it be a relatively minor thing to remove the ceiling in that area and then put it back after? Or build it all the way up and not need to replace it at all except inside.

I don't know, just thought it and wanted to say it.

[handirifle]

Yea, I know anything can be defeated, even the steel safe I already have. I have a 16 gun safe that weighs 600lbs empty, but I want something I do not have to take out 5 guns to get the one I want. Besides, it, too, would be in the garage anyway.

First off, the garage, is not detached, the wall the safe would be against would be the kitchen wall of the house.. This is in the central coast area, of CA. Just moved here, but humidity could be an issue, but no more than with the steel safe.

I don't like the concrete block idea because they are very porous, in my opinion, and weaker than the mortor holding them together. Poured concrete is out of my price range.

The ceiling I have given thought to, but nothing stuck. I guess it depends on how I do the walls.

I like the come-along idea for raising the panels, will have to look into that.

The steel I was planning would be heavy guage, wire mesh, with about 1/8 to 1/4" openings, nearly solid steel., and there could be more than one sheet per panel. This is the thwart would be saws as well as the heavy hammer.

Yes, ANYTHING can be defeated, given the tools and time, but this will be alarmed as well, so slowing them down is the issue. And fire is ALWAYS a concern, so it has to at least be fire resistant, thus the use of drywall.

Keep the ideas coming.

On the weight issue, I intend to keep the walls in the 3-4" range and expect it to be something in the 1200 to 1500lb range, when completed, and it will be sitting on top of 4" rebar reinforced slab, so the weight isn't an issue.

[HEAD0001]

I have a good friend that is a fireman. His advice was simple. Very few safes made will protect your firearms through what he called a "catastrophic" fire.

He told me that if you really want to protect your firearms from damage then you need to do a couple of things. First of all he said always put your safe on an outside wall. He said that is where the temp. of the fire is least, and for a shorter amount of time.

He said to never put your safe in the center of the house , in the basement, or near a place where it could fall into the basement when the floor burns. He said the center of the house, in the basement is where the fire is hottest, and burns the longest, and should be avoided. Just some information. Tom.

[O.S.O.K.]

I would go with hollow cinder block with rebar and concrete poured into the cavitiy as you build it up. That would be the primary structure material. I would suggest 1/4" steel pannels for the top - welded together would be the best. If you're worried about porousity - coat the inside with sealant paint - available at your local home despot...

Further, install cameras - even if they are just good fake cameras - they are a real deterent to most would-be burglers.

Secrecy is another "component" to security - I'm sure I don't have to say this but show the room to no-one. Even family members can sometimes forget themselves and blab about your cool room.... Just don't include it on the tour - make it look like a normal storage room from the outside.

[L_Kilkenny]

Bruce, in most of the houses we have been working on the last few years they have been putting in concrete bunkers/storm shelters/gun rooms below the front porch. Still an option for you? If you do, be sure to use a good steal door and have it swing in for emergencies. Other than that and the concrete blocks that have already been suggested........you can still use wood and make a good solid room. Think about using timbers used for landscaping and lots of reinforcment. Store your chainsaw in the room with the guns to keep it away from would be theives.

LK

[Hillbilly]

however you build up the corner of your garage dont leave:

your metal cutting sawzall
oxy acetelyne torch
and sledge hammer

lying against the outside wall.

we'd like to make the break- in a sporting proposition!



last good gunsafe highjacking we had around here... the victim's chains and 4 wheel drive truck (keys in the ignition) pulled the gun safe through an exterior window from the interior closet of the house. The crooks had several hours to lasso the safe -- punched right into the closet wall, roped the safe with some chains and pulled that puppy right out the bathroom window and wall. Needless to say...his insurance claims guy was speechless. The recovered safe was about 30 miles south...torched open and void of firearms.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I've actually done this two ways or at least helped. There is a company that makes 8x8x16 hollow concrete blocks that have notches in the top so you can run re-bar horizontally and vertically as well. Now you have an 8" by 8" grid of re-bar in the block. You can buy just the door and frame of a safe and weld it to the re-bar. The blocks were poured as they came up. The top had re-bar bent over into the ceiling and the grid continued, but this feller formed and poured the ceiling as well.

Next was done on an existing house. For the walls the owner drilled the concrete floor every 8" and epoxied re-bar verticals then welded re-bar horizontals for an 8" grid. He ,too ordered a safe door and frame, welded it to the grid. Then we covered the grid with 2x stubs insulated it then used fire-proof Sheetrock drywall screwed to the studs. Other than the walk through safe door that one looked like any other room.

[handirifle]

There is no doubt the rebar makes the concrete blocks stronger, but they break easily with a hammer. The porousity I was worried about is NOT in air or mositure intrusion, but for strength.

The blocks, except the 4" varieties, are out due to space. That might still be considered.

Here's a pic of the slab. It's well beyond that now, as the trusses go up tomorrow.



Anyway my wife is standing left center in the pic. even with her left shoulder (in the pic) is the garage floor (upper left hand corner). My safe will be there. not detached, not underneath and definately not in the center of the house (good suggestions, by the way).

I have considered a square/rectangular steel tubing frame around and within the main beams. This would give me grat strength to tie the door into as well.

Honestly, if I went with 1/4" steel plate, I'd have it all welded of that. IF I were a better welder, that is what I'd do. That DOES give me an idea though. Maybe a labor trade for a motorcycle I'm considering trading.....hmmmm

[JP_TX]

One thing you might want to keep in mind is, there is no such thing as "Fire Proof", "Burglar Proof" or even "Water Proof." Most of these threats are controlled by time. So your plans should consider what is the fire rating of the materials you're going to use. Is there a way to summon police in the event of a burglary when you're not there and how long will it take for them to respond? Do you live in a flood zone? This may help you clarify your thoughts a bit.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

There is no doubt the rebar makes the concrete blocks stronger, but they break easily with a hammer. The porousity I was worried about is NOT in air or mositure intrusion, but for strength.

The blocks, except the 4" varieties, are out due to space. That might still be considered.

Here's a pic of the slab. It's well beyond that now, as the trusses go up tomorrow.



Anyway my wife is standing left center in the pic. even with her left shoulder (in the pic) is the garage floor (upper left hand corner). My safe will be there. not detached, not underneath and definately not in the center of the house (good suggestions, by the way).

I have considered a square/rectangular steel tubing frame around and within the main beams. This would give me grat strength to tie the door into as well.

Honestly, if I went with 1/4" steel plate, I'd have it all welded of that. IF I were a better welder, that is what I'd do. That DOES give me an idea though. Maybe a labor trade for a motorcycle I'm considering trading.....hmmmm

That's why they need to be poured with concrete. This notched hollow block construction with vertical and horizontal re-bar inside then poured is how the Federal prisons are built.

[adirondakjack]

Yea, I know anything can be defeated, even the steel safe I already have. I have a 16 gun safe that weighs 600lbs empty, but I want something I do not have to take out 5 guns to get the one I want. Besides, it, too, would be in the garage anyway.

First off, the garage, is not detached, the wall the safe would be against would be the kitchen wall of the house.. This is in the central coast area, of CA. Just moved here, but humidity could be an issue, but no more than with the steel safe.

I don't like the concrete block idea because they are very porous, in my opinion, and weaker than the mortor holding them together. Poured concrete is out of my price range.

The ceiling I have given thought to, but nothing stuck. I guess it depends on how I do the walls.

I like the come-along idea for raising the panels, will have to look into that.

The steel I was planning would be heavy guage, wire mesh, with about 1/8 to 1/4" openings, nearly solid steel., and there could be more than one sheet per panel. This is the thwart would be saws as well as the heavy hammer.

Yes, ANYTHING can be defeated, given the tools and time, but this will be alarmed as well, so slowing them down is the issue. And fire is ALWAYS a concern, so it has to at least be fire resistant, thus the use of drywall.

Keep the ideas coming.

On the weight issue, I intend to keep the walls in the 3-4" range and expect it to be something in the 1200 to 1500lb range, when completed, and it will be sitting on top of 4" rebar reinforced slab, so the weight isn't an issue.

Now this is starting to gel for me. One thing to consider with your alarm is a little system I devised for my uncle's motorcycle trailer (after his gold wing was stolen twice)

use plunger switches on the door (you can also get cheap motion detector switches), and on the garage door to set off a LOCAL alarm that has two major components. One is a siren, the other a rotating red beacon. The beacon can be disguised as a roof vent (on the trailer we used a roof vent enclosure with lots of slots cut into it for the light to shine through, but a slatted weathervane base would work nicely, etc), and the siren located in the same box on the roof. Use a 12V battery (camcorder type) and automatic charger so the alarm cannot be defeated by tripping the main breaker. The idea is extremely simple. If the alarm goes off due to an attempted breech, you get a siren and a red rotating light up on the roof that is difficult to quickly disable, and will draw boucoup attention. The system we built for the MC trailer only cost about $125.

[handirifle]

That's why they need to be poured with concrete. This notched hollow block construction with vertical and horizontal re-bar inside then poured is how the Federal prisons are built.

Yea, but they don't usually issue sledge hammers to prisoners either. Not too many of them will punch through concrete, porous or not.

An alarm system was always in the plans. No details will be posted on it though, neither will my final decision. No sense tipping my hat to them.

[horsesoldier03]

Having had a fire and being a voulenteer fireman makes me no expert. But I did have the opportunity to talk with alot of people that are knowledgeable. I second the motion on putting the safe on an exterior wall preferably near a window. when we had our fire, we were able to have a hose on stand by that was able to suppress any fire near my safe. This was suggested by our fire cheif who always trys to accomodate the home owner and in the event an entire structure may not be able to be saved, they can normally always reduce damage in a particular part of the house where a safe may be.

[handirifle]

The house will be equipped with a sprinkler system (new CA building codes), so maybe I'll have the sprinkler guy put one over the safe area, in the garage. Better make SURE it's water tight on top then.