OT - Religious question

[Ysabel Kid]

I did not want to hijack Pete44ru's post (I know - first time for everything):

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 53#p244853

But it got me thinking, so I just thought I would ask. I've noticed there is more than one type of Baptist. Do all Baptists believe that drinking is a sin? Is it all alcohol, or just some kinds?

Just curious. I'm Catholic, so I just don't know - and I don't think Catholicism would have survived if we weren't allowed to imbibe!

[mescalero1]

Having grown up around this contoversy, the Baptists I have known have an unwritten agreement not to recognize each other at the liquor store or the strip club.

[Bullard4075]

As a Baptist I can tell you what I know, at least what I think I know.
There are at least 47 types or offshoots of Baptists.
They run from real liberal ones (American I think) to very conservative (Southern -which I am ) ones.
Southern Baptist is what most people think of and the ones most misunderstood.
You will find Baptists who drink (me) and those who are very opposed to drinking.
We could argue what the Bible says about drinking till the cows come home.
While I drink I have not been even close to drunk in 40 years. I was "saved" about 20 years ago.

Some will argue (my pastor) that the wine in the Bible is a much watered down version of what we call wine today.
I don't remember another alcohol being mentioned in the Bible. You have me thinking - I'll have to look. I would bet
there is a reference to something like a beer.
Paul says in Romans 14:14 (and in Tim 4:1-4) there is no unclean foods.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/kosher.html

The prohibition of drinking is centered on getting drunk and thus losing control of oneself.

Baptists aren't allowed to dance. Another myth.
Most likely came from during Prohibition when the few places to dance were in Speak-Easyies where there was ............drinking.
My 2 cents.

[Blaine]

My Mom is Baptist, and to hear her talk, it's just going to be her and Jesus in heaven, and she's not real sure about him... Just about everyone she knows is doomed for one thing or the other......very grim woman to be around

[mescalero1]

Blaine,
Are we brothers?

[Bullard4075]

There are Essentials : Ephesians 4:3-6 Make every effort to keep the unity...There is one body and one Spirit -one Lord .......

There are Non-Essentials : Romans14:1,4,12,22.......So whatever you believe
about these things keep between yourself and God.

Far to many dwell on the non-essentials.

[donw]

the Bible speaks against drunkeness: "...drunkards, murderers, etc shall NOT enter the kingdom of heaven"...if drunkeness were different then, why would the Bible speak against it? being drunk, is being drunk isn't it?

before the time of Christ or now, drunk is drunk

the apostle Paul advocated "a little wine is good for the belly"

[Kansas Ed]

I was raised southern baptist in Mo. and there were factions of our church which believed that dancing was a sin. Friends of mine who were my age were denied by their parents to attend school dances on the grounds of religion. I fell out with the church when we were condemned to hell publicly in the Sunday service for buying a new car. Told that buying a new car was evidence of a coercion with Satan. My family fell out with the church shortly thereafter.

My grandparents lived and died as Southern Baptists, and to my grandmothers dying day she felt that entering any "pool hall" was a sin. I remember as a child my grandfather stopping in Windsor Mo. on occasion to shoot a game of snooker...maybe once every two or three months. And my grandmother harping on him for weeks afterwards about the condition of his soul.

Ed

[El Chivo]

Baptists aren't allowed to dance. Another myth.

hey, now wait, I saw "Footloose"...

[Andrew]

The prohibition of drinking is centered on getting drunk and thus losing control of oneself.

Yep. I don't believe there is any biblical 'foot to stand on' basis for phrohibition, though. Not babtist, but I drink on occasion and only socially. Got drunk the first time I drank and can see how that gets people into trouble. I get in enough trouble sober.

[Old Ironsights]

Folks seem to forget that back in Jesus' day drinking water was a sure way to end up sick &/or dead.

Everybody drank WINE - not grape juice - because the alcohol killed the bacteria.

Everything in moderation, nothing in excess.

As for modern religions?

I think Luther's 96th Thesis was "Communion shall be served with Beer, not Wine."

[Hobie]

I was raised Episcopalian. Drinking is apparently expected. Based on how the American church is run, most of it is done by the clergy.... (how's that for an apparent hijack? )

However, there are Baptist, Congregationalist, Presbyterian and Methodist ministers in my family tree. Still, I've not known anyone who wouldn't take a drink on religious grounds. Most who wouldn't drink wouldn't do so because they knew they shouldn't. My wife's family was apparently mostly some sect of Primitive Baptist and they don't drink until they "go wild". A single beer is enough to earn the "gone wild" appelation.

I've got to ask Jay, what did you see or read or hear that had you post this? I think there's a story in that.

[Ysabel Kid]

I was raised Episcopalian. Drinking is apparently expected. Based on how the American church is run, most of it is done by the clergy.... (how's that for an apparent hijack? )

However, there are Baptist, Congregationalist, Presbyterian and Methodist ministers in my family tree. Still, I've not known anyone who wouldn't take a drink on religious grounds. Most who wouldn't drink wouldn't do so because they knew they shouldn't. My wife's family was apparently mostly some sect of Primitive Baptist and they don't drink until they "go wild". A single beer is enough to earn the "gone wild" appelation.

I've got to ask Jay, what did you see or read or hear that had you post this? I think there's a story in that.

Pete44ru's joke (see the link in the original thread). Just got me thinking about a question I've always had. I didn't realize there were 47 times of Baptists alone! I read somewhere here recently though that there are 40,000 or so recognized Christian denomination!!!

I've made it a personal goal to read through the bible - cover to cover. Slow going at first - only so many "begats" you can handle in one sitting. I'm just doing a verse a day, and really trying to think about it and what it means. So far I haven't read any prohibition on drinking, so I was curious. I don't drink myself - maybe one glass of something a couple/few times per year. I damaged my liver in a car accident 25 years ago, so anything more wouldn't be wise, and my system won't tolerate it anyway (and violently objects just to make sure I know! ). Just figured that this would be an interesting way to learn - and share...

[wm]

My father in law was raised a strict Baptist......no drinking, no dancing, no card playing, no sports or games, strict obedience to authority, etc. His family spent every Sunday in prayer......all day.....and humbling themselves for their sins of omission and commission. It was all about saving your soul from a world that was evil.

Needless to say he has not approved of me. I quit drinking years ago but I still dance (I call it danceing most would not), I play cribbage with my wife and other card games with friends, I coach Little League and my sons are baseball/football/basketball playing animals, and as for never questioning authority......well I went to Catholic grade school and high school until half way through my 11th grade year when they finally had enough of me and kicked me out for questioning authority. That certainly did not encourage me to stop questioning authority.......it was like getting early parole for fighting in prison!

Oh and Sundays we do go to church (my wife and I are Elders in our Presbyterian church) and we stay late afterwards often laughing and visiting with memebers. Our potlucks are raucous good times with lots of singing and fun.

The only thing my father in law and I agree on is fishing......and I think that is because we have to sit quietly in the boat together.

Wm

[Gary]

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

You are under grace, not under any law. Still, don't get drunk and disorderly because then the alcohol is controlling you instead of you controlling the alcohol.

[C. Cash]

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

You are under grace, not under any law. Still, don't get drunk and disorderly because then the alcohol is controlling you instead of you controlling the alcohol.

Well put!

[Pepe Ray]

Sin can be any activity that tempts a person to imbibe beyond the limits of there own self control. -- Excess in anything is self destructive.
Pepe Ray

[Charles]

Historicaly the Baptist, Methodist and a bunch more were against the consumption of alcohol. This came about as a result of Carrie Nation and the temperance movement.

National prohibition proved to be a very bad failure and since it's repeal, the various church groups have relaxed their position on the consumption of alchohol, some more than others.

As a kid in the Methodist church in the 40's, we had one Sunday a year that was designated as "Temperance Sunday". The preacher preached against booze and every signed a pledge card to abstain from comsuming alchohol for the coming years. We refered to this as taking the "cold water pledge".

The Episcopalians have always be refered to as "Wiskeypalians" in this part of the world.

No... I am not again drinking in a responsible manner.

[JimT]

DOWWWN WITH RUM! - w.c. fields

[bogus bill]

I was taught there is only one unpardonable sin. That is mocking the holy spirt. Makes sense as you are made to "feel" guilty or feel "conviction" through the holy spirt. Offend the holy spirit and you wont feel guilty or convicted and will stay in your sin. I belive in moderation in all things. Many things can become "idols" in our lives if we let them. Guns could become a idol if we dwell on them all the time, and even cheat or steal to get them.
We may all have different opinions on how to achieve salvation, but we must remember we arent the ones who make the rules, God is/did! What really chaps me is hearing the popular cop-out by some parents where they proudly say I dont make my children go to chuch! When they get older they will "decide" for themselves. I think it a safe bet on how they usualy choose by then!
We are all born in sin. Doesnt matter if your dad was a preacher and you were raised in church. That wont save your bacon for a secound, choices have to be made. If it can be boiled down to one bible verse, I think it would have to be john 3:16.
A lot of baptists belive in "Once saved, always saved". I dont! I do belive in Gods Grace where mistakes will and can be made after salvation, but NOT in once saved always saved. To me that is more of a potential and serious pitfall than falling off the wagon drinking etc.

[Retro]

I only ever spent time with one baptist, but he sure made me appreciate this joke.

I was walking in San Francisco along the Golden Gate Bridge when I saw a man about to jump off. I tried to dissuade him from committing suicide and told him simply that God loved him. A tear came to his eye. I then asked him, “Are you a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, or what?”

He said, “I’m a Christian.”

I said, “Me, too, small world. . .Protestant or Catholic?”

He said, “Protestant.”

I said, “Me, too, what denomination?”

He said, “Baptist.”

I said, “Me, too, Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Baptist.”

I said, “Well, ME TOO, Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.”

I said, “Well, that’s amazing! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reformed Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.”

I said, “Remarkable! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.”

I said, “A miracle! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”

I said, “DIE HERETIC!’ and pushed him over the rail.

From http://bible.org/illustration/heretic

[Hillbilly]

I have to second Bogus Bill... Lots of the "liberal" Baptists ( all denomintations for that matter) I know live by the "once saved-always saved" idea... and that washes a lot of double dealin in their minds.

They seem to ignore some other verses..."faith without works is dead" and "by there works they shall be known" come to mind... I know you works alone dont cut it... and faith is part of the equation. I recall a verse that implies that "some would prove false" and cant help thinking that lives to those who labor under a false sense of "salvation"

I never could quite take anyone serious who tells me they are "saved" but cant answer the question "from what?" I get that from a lot of "once saved-always saved" folks I speak with.

Read all those verses...our Lord judges us on what we choose to do with what we know about what he teaches us. It's our duty to try to follow Christs lead... and how well we do that is what he considers at our Judgment. We wont be perfect...but we need to try hard to come as close as we can... Being a Christian is an "active" enterprise and hiding behind the "blood" like so many folks do does "mock the holy spirit".

[Rusty]

I'm an Independent Baptist. That means I can't get along with anybody, or so they say. Not a member of any convention, just the local church. First off I'd suggest a study tool for anyone that's interested. If you go to www.e-sword.net you can download a free program that will assist you in looking up Bible verses. If you know just a couple of words in the verse or just one single word you can look it up. Send the man a donation for it if you like.

As for the question at hand. A lot of hell fire and damnation circuit ridding preachers in years gone by carried a flask of Brandy for medicinal purposes. I do that, but don't drink in public and I really don't care for it.

Paul did tell Timothy to "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake" which is the medicinal purpose he was talking about. My mom tells me that red wine sipped slowly will help stop diarrhea, but I've never tried it myself. I don't think I've ever had a bottle around when I had the illness. I have known people that wouldn't take Nyquil because of the alcohol in it.

[Blaine]

Truth be told, most of the old Testment is centered around good common sense, health and welfair.... Some people don't know how to act after one beer and some are ok with a sixpack..... If you don't believe in alcohol, then none is the correct answer..otherwise, MYOB

[Gary]

The only time I am against ANY alcohol consumption is when it involves guns or motor vehicles.

Can I get an amen?

[Ysabel Kid]

The only time I am against ANY alcohol consumption is when it involves guns or motor vehicles.

Can I get an amen?

AMEN!

[Blaine]

The only time I am against ANY alcohol consumption is when it involves guns or motor vehicles.

Can I get an amen?

AND, typing on the internet Oh, and AMEN!!!

[Old Ironsights]

AND, typing on the internet Oh, and AMEN!!!

Whassds da yo meen typng n th net? Icn does tht js fine aftr 3 r 4 ...

[Swampman]

Most Baptist don't drink & can give you scripture and verse why they don't. The modern liberal Baptist think it's ok. Personally I don't care.

http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm

[Doc Hudson]

I'm no Baptist so I can't answer your question. However i will make a comment and tell a joke.

TRUE FACT

The Reverend mr. Elijah Craig, a Baptist Minister, was the first person to age bourbon whiskey in a charred keg, which gives bourbon its distinctive color and flavor

JOKE

Q: Do you know the biggest difference between Baptists and Episcopalians?

A: Episcopalians will recognize and talk to each other in the liquor store.

[rhead]

YK
I have an audio version of the bible on one of my MP3 players. I set on scramble and turn it on every morning on the way to work. I get two random chapters each morning. It is amazing how often they are appropriate to the day's problems.
My vision is such that I cannot read for an extended period without a headache.

[Rexster]

I grew up Southern Baptist. The view was that drinking, strictly speaking, is not a sin. I can't recall the any exact doctrine, but the general gist was that drinking, gambling, dancing, and even playing cards, are not sins in and of themselves, but could so easily lead to things that are sins. Humans being weak, and some weaker than others, it is best to avoid drinking, gambling, and dancing.

Personally, I drink rarely, and in moderation. I simply don't understand how alcohol can be so freakin' important to some folks. (It helps that I never developed a taste for beer, and most wines are unappealing to me as well.) I virtually always have firearms on or about my person, anyway, and enjoy firearms far more than any form of booze. FWIW, I will still have a handgun on/with me, if I have one drink with food, which is generally the only type of drinkin' I do these days. If I am with folks who insist that the firearms be put away before the bottle is opened, and won't let me simply abstain, well, fine, then, I will leave so y'all can open your bottles.

[Sixgun]

I'm a Catholic and live across the street from a Methodist church. Many are my neighbors and surrounding community. They are always preaching to "do the right thing" and "don't drink" blah, blah, blah. Over the past 35 years I can't begin to quote the amount of people who have come up to me and said, "guess who I saw at the strip club in Philly?" or "did you read the paper and see who got their second DUI?" or "so and so got caught with a 22 year old girl".

This same goes for people of my congregation of supposed "good Catholics".

I really think a good part of any congregation are a bunch of "behind the heater drinkers". Then they go to Confession, confess their sins, feel good about themselves, then head back to the Gentlemans Club. -----------------Sixgun

[piller]

This is the first time anywhere that I have seen religion discussed so politely. My hat is off to y'all for being able to state your ideas and not give or take offense.

[Old Ironsights]

This is the first time anywhere that I have seen religion discussed so politely. My hat is off to y'all for being able to state your ideas and not give or take offense.

Just wait until we get to "sprinkle vs dunk"...

[waz]

Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

... it might lead to dancing....



W

[Bullard4075]

Old Ironsights now ya started it!!!

I can talk ten minutes on that one.

And I'm in the once saved ,always saved camp too!

[Ysabel Kid]

YK
I have an audio version of the bible on one of my MP3 players. I set on scramble and turn it on every morning on the way to work. I get two random chapters each morning. It is amazing how often they are appropriate to the day's problems.
My vision is such that I cannot read for an extended period without a headache.

That sounds like a great idea. I'd rather listen to that on the radio than a lot of stuff right now!!!

[Ysabel Kid]

I grew up Southern Baptist. The view was that drinking, strictly speaking, is not a sin. I can't recall the any exact doctrine, but the general gist was that drinking, gambling, dancing, and even playing cards, are not sins in and of themselves, but could so easily lead to things that are sins. Humans being weak, and some weaker than others, it is best to avoid drinking, gambling, and dancing.

Personally, I drink rarely, and in moderation. I simply don't understand how alcohol can be so freakin' important to some folks. (It helps that I never developed a taste for beer, and most wines are unappealing to me as well.) I virtually always have firearms on or about my person, anyway, and enjoy firearms far more than any form of booze. FWIW, I will still have a handgun on/with me, if I have one drink with food, which is generally the only type of drinkin' I do these days. If I am with folks who insist that the firearms be put away before the bottle is opened, and won't let me simply abstain, well, fine, then, I will leave so y'all can open your bottles.

I don't drink for several reasons. As I said before, I consume a drink or so once every 4 or so months. I don't drink to excess, and like you, can't understand the need to do so. Of course, certain environments are much less appealing sober! The major reason is my health, but I also saw the impact of over-drinking among my father and his peers in law enforcement. I decided early on that I would not go down this path. I never really developed a taste for alcohol either. But in the end, I guess the biggest driver for me is that I am simply TOO CHEAP to spend $50 or $100 a week on alcohol. I'd rather have more guns - especially leverguns!!! (see I could tie it back to the forum! )

[Ysabel Kid]

I'm a Catholic and live across the street from a Methodist church. Many are my neighbors and surrounding community. They are always preaching to "do the right thing" and "don't drink" blah, blah, blah. Over the past 35 years I can't begin to quote the amount of people who have come up to me and said, "guess who I saw at the strip club in Philly?" or "did you read the paper and see who got their second DUI?" or "so and so got caught with a 22 year old girl".

This same goes for people of my congregation of supposed "good Catholics".

I really think a good part of any congregation are a bunch of "behind the heater drinkers". Then they go to Confession, confess their sins, feel good about themselves, then head back to the Gentlemans Club. -----------------Sixgun

Sixgun -

I've seen a lot of those myself. I had a friend in college that was simply a hound. He would chase (and catch) girls all week long - sleeping with a couple-three different ones each week (obviously before AIDS hit the country in a big way), and then march off to confession each weekend. Clean the slate and start the process again. I explained to him once that confession only worked if one was truly sorry and then tried to sin no more. Not what he wanted to hear!

[horsesoldier03]

Cant speak for all sects but I was raised independant baptist.

Drinking, Smoking were definately viewed as sins. Dancing was frowned upon but not to the degree as the other.

NEVER GO FISHING WITH JUST ONE BAPTIST; IF YOU DO, HE WILL DRINK ALL YOUR BEER!

[brucew44guns]

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

You are under grace, not under any law. Still, don't get drunk and disorderly because then the alcohol is controlling you instead of you controlling the alcohol.

If I understand "grace", I believe it means "unmerited pardon" for past sins. Grace, as near as I can tell in the scriptures, does not give license to continue to sin. A man commuted from a life sentence in prison, has been given grace, by a governor, or perhaps a president. But he does not have grace any longer if he goes out and commits crime once again. So we are surely "under grace", not under the penalty of the law. That penalty is death, far better to be under grace, but the law is not excused, we are subject to it. Those who break the law, are under the penalty of it, not under "grace" any longer. That's what repentence is all about, to get back under grace.

[bogus bill]

I am glad for the good open discussion on religion on this site. I doubt it would have went this long on other gun sites I am on without some comeing unglued or mocking etc. Speaks well for us here.

[Charles]

Bruce... You understanding of God's grace is correct, but a little on the narrow side.

Grace is God's unmerited FAVOR towards us. This of course includes pardon of our sins, but also flows to every aspect of our lives.

Theologians speak of "prevenient grace" , which means the grace that goes before. Paul spoke it it when he said, "God loves us before we first loved Him". This is the grace that calls and wooes us to him. While we are still lost in our sin and rebellion, God reaches out to us through his grace.

Then of course there is "saving grace", of which you spoke so well. God's pardon of our sins and acceptance of us as his Children brought about through our faith in Christ and of course repentance.

Then there is "grace for living" or "growth in grace". As long as we living God's grace is in our lives, shaping us more and more each day in the image of Christ. " Have within you the mind that was in Christ".

In the end... "All is our grace". Grace is the password to heaven and the strength for daily living in this world.

As you can guess, I am a graceaholic. I can't live a moment without it!

[Gary]

Mercy happens when a cop pulls you over for speeding and does not write you a ticket.
Grace is when he hands you a $100 bill and says you are free to go.

The wages of sin is death. There is no way around it. (Ezekiel 18:4) The penalty must be paid in full. Under Hebrew tradition, the only possible way to release a condemned man was for the judge himself to to pay the penalty by taking the condemned's place in punishment . (Fat chance of that happening!)

In 33AD it did happen. The final punishment for all was made outside Jerusalem. At that point, all of our sins were paid for. Note that all our sins at that time were future and had not happened yet. Yes, it includes any sins you or I may commit tomorrow.

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The punishment IS death, not WAS death. The gift is not WAS eternal but IS eternal and without end.

God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Gary

[bogus bill]

I think the question was a softball and not all of us agree on one simple answer. Here is a hardball. Homosexals. Nowdays it is highly PC to accept them. We arent suppose to demean them in any way or be prejudice against them. Yet my bible says they are going to hell. I also agree, that is if its a choice. I do not know if any of them are born that way, as many tell me, or if it is a choice. I just cant see God letting someone being born with those desires as it would seem unfair for someone to be born and saddled with extra desires that normal people dont have, that will get them thrown in hell. What say you? Are they all, or some really born that way, or not?

[Kansas Ed]

..... as it would seem unfair for someone to be born and saddled with extra desires that normal people dont have...

That logic fails in the face of reality...if your logic was true then my wife would have the same amount of desire that I do...

Ed

[Old Ironsights]

Here is the entirety of what the KJV has to say about homosexuality:

Lev.18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

OK. Easy enough. Male-Male sex = Bad/

Lev.20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Again. MMS = Bad.

Rom.1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

This one is interesting. Here we have a conundrum. This is the ONLY place ANYWHERE in the Bible that MIGHT be referring to Lesbianisim, but that's a tossup. ***deleted***

Also, generally and historically, "quiet lesbianisim" - you know, those old spinster aunts everyone as heard of or has had - has been utterly ignored, if not accepted by "The Church". THey may have been looked down on for never having children, but not for living together. Better that two Spinsters live together than a woman move in with a man...

Just saying...

[Hobie]

Here is the entirety of what the KJV has to say about homosexuality:

Lev.18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

OK. Easy enough. Male-Male sex = Bad/

Lev.20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Again. MMS = Bad.

Rom.1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

This one is interesting. Here we have a conundrum. This is the ONLY place ANYWHERE in the Bible that MIGHT be referring to Lesbianisim, but that's a tossup. ***deleted***

Also, generally and historically, "quiet lesbianisim" - you know, those old spinster aunts everyone as heard of or has had - has been utterly ignored, if not accepted by "The Church". THey may have been looked down on for never having children, but not for living together. Better that two Spinsters live together than a woman move in with a man...

Just saying...

Ok, here's the deal. FAMILY forum. Jeez, you'd think you could get away from this stuff SOMEPLACE. How about here?