OT-Muzzlestuffer consistant accuracy?

[Old Time Hunter]

Well ladies and gents, what is your opinion on multiple shot accuracy out of a muzzle stuffer?

How many shots before the minute of garbage can lid accuracy goes away at 'round 100 yards?

How many grains of powder? what kind of powder? what kind of bullet?

Shot darn near fifty rounds this past Sunday, tried 75 grains of FFg with a 385gr cast R.E.A.L (SPG lube), 85 grains FFG with a 240 grain jacketed sabot, and a bunch of cast balls with patch using anywhere from 70 to 90 grains of FFg. Couldn't hold more'n 3 within a pie plate at 100 yards, no more than 4 on a 8 X11 piece of paper and that was with the sabots. If I would clean 'er up after five shots the next one was spot on, same as the second, but starting with the third, she'd start to move.

[86er]

What kind of rifle? I can get 245 gr Powerbelt tipped bullets into 2" groups at 100 yds using two pellets of Triple 7 Magnum. Same charge with Barnes MX sabotted 295 gr yields 1 1/2" groups. All groups = 3 shots. I can keep going for 12-14 shots without cleaning before any significant diminishing accuracy.

[AJMD429]

I've managed to shoot ten shots (without cleaning) into about 4" (limited by my shooting I think, and not the gun, because the first few were spread out as much as the last few) with a muzzleloader, but it was a Savage ML10, & I was using 'grey' powder instead of the real deal.

[Lastmohecken]

Well, I would like to say that you just havn't found the right load for it yet, but then again some rifles do shoot better or maybe I should say worse then others. I have been down that road, too. What kind if gun do you have, what is the rifling twist?

Slow twist, lets say around 1 turn in 66 makes it a round ball rifle. Middle of the road twist, 1 in 48 will often shoot roundballs or conicals, about the same. A fast twist like maybe 1 in 28 or so is mostly a conical or sabot gun.

You need to be consistant load to load, and some guns prefer a certain powder charge, or projectile. Patch thickness can be problem, and are you blowing patches? If you think your gun should shoot roundballs, try using a buffer between the powder and the patched ball. The old timers used a piece of wasp's nest, or hornet's nest as a buffer. Just tear a few pieces of it off and push it down on the powder charge before seating the patched ball. Be consistant on ramrod pressure, from shot to shot. The wasp's nest will act as a seal and keep the hot gasses from burning or blowing the patch.

Get closer and get it hitting good at 50yds, first.

[runnin lead]

I was going nuts last week at the range playing around with my muzzle loader getting ready for elk season, I had shots scattering all over the place,I cleaned the barrel & took afew shots & was all over the place again. The next day I was at a BPCR silly wet match & foweled out , it was hot & dry , I had planed on wiping between shots for my 3rd & 4th relays but fouled out in the 2nd relay , it didn't feel that hot on the covered position but it was too hot for a blow tube.
On my drive home I realized that the problem I had the other day was not my muzzleloader it was fowling , nothing wrong with the gun . HIGH HEAT & LOW HUMIDITY = FOWLING and fast
I will go back to the range on a day when it is not hot & preserve my sanity,
what little bit that remains ,double check my sights & be ready for elk season , I won't have to shoot enough to be concerned with fowling when elk hunting , only wher my first shot goes from a clean barrel & next month will be cooler

[deerwhacker444]

You're on the right track. All the muzzleloaders I have are accurate with different things. None of them shoot the same loads. In my dads T/C Omega, he shoots a .40 cal 200gr. Shockwave bullet from a sabot. That load will tumble and keyhole out of my T/C Omega and shoot all over the place even though it's an identical rifle. To get mine to group I had to shoot a .452 cal 300 gr. XTP in a sabot. Our T/C Omegas need to be cleaned after every shot. Cleaning after every shot will give 1.5 MOA accuracy. Don't clean, and it drops off pretty quickly. That's okay though, it makes me place my first shot accurately.

On the other end of the sprectrum, I had a Remington 700 ML in .54 cal. It didn't like anything at first. I finally found it would shoot a 390gr. Lyman Great Plains bullet into 2 MOA regularly. The kicker with it is it shoots best dirty. The dirtier it gets, the better it shoots.

I had a .50 cal roundball gun that wouldn't shoot if it was lightly patched. I ended up using some artist canvas (.030) and .495 balls. Using this combination it would shoot lights out.

It's just a toss up, you might have to try lots of stuff to get it figured out. Figuring out your twist rate will help a bunch and should narrow your choices.

Good luck.....

[C. Cash]

What is the twist rate and rifle make Old Time? I assume your shooting a 1 in 48" twist as your shooting both RB and Conicals. Percussion I take it as well?

[Hobie]

Well ladies and gents, what is your opinion on multiple shot accuracy out of a muzzle stuffer?

How many shots before the minute of garbage can lid accuracy goes away at 'round 100 yards?

How many grains of powder? what kind of powder? what kind of bullet?

Shot darn near fifty rounds this past Sunday, tried 75 grains of FFg with a 385gr cast R.E.A.L (SPG lube), 85 grains FFG with a 240 grain jacketed sabot, and a bunch of cast balls with patch using anywhere from 70 to 90 grains of FFg. Couldn't hold more'n 3 within a pie plate at 100 yards, no more than 4 on a 8 X11 piece of paper and that was with the sabots. If I would clean 'er up after five shots the next one was spot on, same as the second, but starting with the third, she'd start to move.

What rifle are you shooting? I'm a traditional shooter, the highest tech bullet I prefer to use is the hollowbase conical. Some folks are shooting some real bragging groups even out to 200 yards with those saboted slugs in some of the things that pass for muzzleloading/primitive arms today.

[JerryB]

I can't say much more than Lastmohecken, He pretty well said it for us traditional shooters. What do you use for patching round balls, and how do you lube them, do you spit patch or use grease?I have been muzzle loader shooting since 1968 but all I shoot is patched round balls with 3fffg powder.I wouldn't try to zero it at 100 yards.Go back to 25 or 50 yards until you find a load your rifle likes, then go back to the longer ranges. I am sure there is alot more knowledgeable folks here then me and someone will help you, good luck.

[Don McDowell]

Using a 535 rdball with a pillowtic patch, with 55-60 grs of 2f black powder in most 54 cal rifles with a twist of 1-48 or slower 2 moaor less , should be doable all day long, provided you take care of any fouling problems before they get out of hand. And the shooter has the ability........
490 ball and .020 patch 45-50 grs of either 3 or 2f, ought to do the trick in a 50.

Basically 1 gr of powder per caliber using 2f for bores over 50, and 3 50 and under with a round ball and patch should yield more accuracy to 200 yds than most folks can utilize.

The so called bullets of modern day aren't made with accuracy in mind. The old timers and their slug guns were a horse of a nuther stripe.....

[Blaine]

My 1980 era T/C Renegade w/set trigger kit would put .54 RB into a pie plate at 100 all day long...when I loaded it way down for squill and plinking, it would put them into a ragged hole at 50yd.....Never shot any other bullets in it.....Oh, deer load was 100gr pyrodex P and squill load was 40gr pyrodex P.....I tried 120gr p. P, but it was the law of diminishing returns kind of thing.....the 100gr load shot thru whitetail doe and never had a shot past fifty yards..... I never figgered out the art of making it go boom every single time, so I didn't do it too long...I suspect that I was not real careful with oil....

[Old Savage]

I liked round ball, 50 Cal. New Englander. I used a .495 ball with a .015 T/C lubed patch started with a plastic mallet and 70 to 80 grs of Goex FFF or Pyrodex P for approx 1750 fps. Accuracy could be as good as 5x2 1/2" at 100 yds but I swabbed with a damp patch and No 13 after each shot. Never use oil on a muzzleloader. Use Bore Butter or the like.

[Griff]

I bought this rifle in the mid '70s, it was my 2nd muzzleloader. I bought it at the Log Cabin Shop, for about $289, IIRC. It's a Uberti copy of a J&S Hawken that resides in a Sante Fe Museum. It's a .53 caliber.

For target shooting of the formal kind, NMRLA type, 50 & 100 yards will be the norm. for all 50 yard shooting I've used 50 grains of 2F and a .526 ball with .010 pillow ticking for patches... it generally will yield a ragged hole group of 5 shots. @ 100 yards, it opens up a little but remains inside 1-½" with 85 grains of 2F and that same .526 ball. For ranges beyond 100 yards, and hunting, I use a .520 ball and a .015 patch in front of 100 grains of 2F. Groups open to about 2" @ 100 yards... but, remain consistent to about 200 yards.

At the range I frequented in CA there was a manhole cover set at 500 yards... I used to make my range fee for the day betting that I could pick up my rifle, load, fire and hit that target with the first shot. I never lost that bet once I knew what bush to aim at.

Oh yeah, the barrel on my Uberti is a 1:66 twist. It is the rifle I'm shooting in my avatar, during which match I hit 6 of 7 shots @ 200 yards using a .526 ball with no patch during the early evening, as the sun was setting; shooting into the sun, and the accumulation of smoke you see in my avatar.

[Nath]

How new is the barrel old timer? What's the twist?

My long gone CVA 45 Kentucky would not shoot at all till after 200 odd shots. It was 66" twist and therefore a ball shooter only. I could get three in three inch at 100 paces off hand in my twenties regular. The patch was just tight enough to start with the rod and patches were kept in a cap tin and soaked in Hoppes BP solvent/cleaner come patch lube but not dripping. I never had a fouling problem with that lube however now I would probably try olive oil.

We gotta know the barrel twist friend!

Nath.

[Ben_Rumson]

I have the same vintage Renegade that BlaineG has but in.50 .. My shooting pard had the same too.. Light plinking load was 60gr 3f .. We used pillow ticking Wonder Patches from DGW... I know this will fly in all that is written, but we discovered that after the patched ball was seated, a short burst down the bore with WD 40 (straw attached) kept our rifles shooting as long as we wanted with no wiping...Stopped the first test at 150 shots each...We didn't see the point of going any farther!.. Yes it's not a load you could leave setting very long but there was no drama in loading the next round either!...Fouling migration in the "chamber area" under the ball was the only reason we'd stop and brush.. Still works today even tho I now know petroleum based products are death to BP barrels..

[Pisgah]

The whole subject of muzzleloader accuracy is a can0' worms. Accuracy factor are as numerous as with cartridge firearms, if not moreso. Size and hardness of projectile, thickness and weave of patch material, type and amount of lube, powder granulation and volume of charge, ignition source (cap, primer, flint, what have you) -- these are but a few of the factors that may make or break a rifle's ability to group.

With time and patience, experimentation can get you there, but you must take one element at a time and see what effect a modification of that element brings. I have an old SearsRoebuck caplock .45 that frustrated me for years until I finally tried a 240 gr. MaxiBall cast at home from pure lead, loaded over 70 gr. of Elephant FFFg, and lit by a Remington #11 cap -- a combo that will keep shot after shot on a playing card at 100 yards for as long as I want to keep shooting. But getting there took me down a long and winding road!

[Hobie]

All the variables of cartridge guns PLUS you have to be consistent in how you load. Some folks just don't have a knack for it.

[Old Time Hunter]

Lots of good info, it is a Lyman Great Plains Hunter 1-32 twist.



It was 90-95 in the shade with about the same humidity, fowling to beat the band. Last winter I was string'n five of the 385gr R.E.A.L bullets(lubed with SPG) in front of 'round 80 grains of FFg with'n the pie plate at a hundred yards standing, this summer has become a struggle. I clean and she's back, a few rounds and it moves all over. Yesterday (80+ and 70+ humidity) I went back and fired 'em off the bench and used a big target to gauge my groups. First thing, I think the bench helped 'cause I didn't miss the pie plate tacked to the big target once. Still couldn't get those 1 to 2" cloverleaf groups though, best one was 5" with the sabots. Thats another story, I hide my face 'cause I don't want to be seen shooting sabots...that'd be embarrassing. The worst group was the RB's, barely kept the group of five on the plate...'guess you could call it a "tight" 8" group in star formation.

[Griff]

A .50 or .54 caliber muzzle loader with 1:32" twist, ain't gonna shoot round balls worth spit... IMO. Have you check your sights for solidity?

I've heard those R.E.A.L. bullets are real good'uns in barrels with a fast a twist as yours. I really couldn't advise you on those, I've only been interested in RB shootin'. Why I got rid of my Thompson-Center Hawken with it's 1:48 twist. It just didn't have the ability to shot RBs as well as I knew I wanted.

[Old Time Hunter]

.50 Cal, Griff

It seems that temperature and humidity does have an influence on the consistancy.

[TedH]

I guess I go about it all wrong. I clean mine between each shot. I only have two muzzle loaders and only use them for hunting, so the only shot that really matters is the first one out of a clean barrel.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I`m with Ted on that one!!

[C. Cash]

I was just thinking the same thing while shooting my smokepole a couple of weeks ago. In reality, as long as it puts the first ball where you want it to go, call her done! I have zero experience with conicals...sorry Old Time Hunter. I bet you could get it to shoot round ball though if you keep trying.

Here is my latest little range session with the 54 Flinter Longrifle(slow twist Green Mtn. barrel). It seems to consistently put the first ball right on the bull no matter what. My last shot was a little slower in going off I believe, and I opened up the group to 1 and 3/16". I wipe with Lehigh Valley Lube between shots. I believe in using real black powder such as Goex(have gotten consistent accuracy in the Longrifle and the Renegade). BP substitutes don't impress me much in terms of getting consistant accuracy.

60 Grains Goex 2F
Prime Goex 4F
Buffalo Bullet .530 Round Ball
Ox Yoke/RMC Pillow ticking patches
Lehigh Valley Lube

[horsesoldier03]

Lyman GPR .50 cal with 1/60 or 1/66 twist. CCI Caps and 80 grn of Pyrodex R, .490 ball with prelubed .015 patch. Generally I can keep a 3 shot group clusterd to 2" at 50 yards. Not bad when you consider each ball is 1/2 in diameter.

Typically I get 10-15 shots before accuracy starts to go. Keep a few extra patches that you can swipe the bore a couple times about every 10 shots to keep it going.

[Old Time Hunter]

Is it possible the 1-32 twist fowls quicker? I just had a discussion with a local friend of mine that is heavy into muzzle stuffers, his reaction is that his faster twist rifles of 1-48 and 1-32 or so fowl fairly quick compared to his 1-60 and 1-66. He also says that humidity more than temperature can effect the accuracy, especially with "real" BP. He is an ardent fan of muzzle stuffers, shooting some 20 or 30 different rifles/pistols. Meticulous loading is the key for consistency but not practicle for field work.....he also said if I acquire an in-line that he will never talk to me again, and do not even breathe the word "sabots".

Back to the real matter, the day I was having the issues, he said based on the loads and humidity level, three-four shots might be the limit. In dry climes and winter, he has gone 10-12 rounds before fowling effected accuracy. He also speculates that a round ball, properly sized and seated, doesn't know the difference between a 1-32 and a 1-66. One just spins faster than the other, so you might get drift like a bowling ball, but it will be the same every time.

[rjohns94]

My flintlock shoots cloverleaf patterns all day. its a .54 caliber rifle, twisted for round balls. I have two loads for it, both are excellent in performance and accuracy.

For target shooting: 55 grains of ffg, two cardboard wads on top, .010 lubricated patch over a .530 ball. I use ffffg for pan flashing.

For hunting: 110grains of ffg, instead of 55grains.

First deer I shot with the flintlock, I shot at about 5 yards and the ball did not come out of the deer using the 55 grain load. Deer ran about 100 yards (in the direction of the car) before going down. took out shouder and lungs, but did not go through the deer.


Next deer I shot at about 80 yards, with 80 grains of powder. Again, piled up after a run of about 40 yards, did not exit the deer.

All other deer I have shot with it, I used 110 grains, full penetration, big holes, DRT or within 20 yards. I don't own a chronograph but in my long barrel, I'm burning most of that powder and don't see a lot of unburned powder after the shots.

At the range, I typically run a spit wet patch between shots and can shoot all day that way. thompsons lube does a great job keeping the bore clean. I pick the hole before priming the pan and clean off the frizen and flint after two or three shots. I feel very comfortable with this rifle to 100 yards and I can shoot clay pigeons as targets at that distance aith great success. (no not thown, as stationary targets). good luck with your shooting

[Chuck 100 yd]

When it is dry out your fouling will get hard and accuracy will go away quicker. Humidity helps keep the fouling soft. That is why the black powder cartridge shooters use a blow tube between shots, to keep the fouling soft. I have seen chunk gun shooters use a long blow tube on long rifles to do the same thing.

You have all winter to load your rifle for hunting to make that first shot count. You don`t have to do it on the run!

rjohns94 , On loading my flint rifles, I put a pick (like a straightened out paper clip ) in the flash hole and close the frizen to hold it there while loading my charge. Then open the frizen and pull out the pick and then prime. This keeps the flash hole open and makes for faster lock time.
Many guys over fill the pan and even tap the powder through the flash hole. That just acts like a fuse and slowes down your lock time. The fire will flash through and set off the charge better when the flash hole is open or the powder in the barrel is loose near the flash hole.

[rjohns94]

thats a good idea, I have always picked after loading the powder and before priming. I will try your method next range time.

[Don McDowell]

I always used a jay feather stuck into the flashhole.
Chucks right many folks put about 5 times as much powder as needed in the pan. I always rolled the rifle to the right on the way to my shoulder so the flash powder would be at the outside of the pan.
The NPS made us use the same powder in our rifles as in the pan, and the stuff they issued us was what they called 1f but it looked more like lump coal. Anyway a couple three hunks of those clinkers worked suprisingly well priming.

OTH if the fouling is real severe about all you can do is swab between shots, unless sometimes a good hearty wet breath down the barrel would keep things managable.

[Nath]

OldTH, thats a fast twist Sir and I allway understood those REAL were an alternative to a ball so they may be too short for that twist!!
Can you blag some Maxi's of someone to try?
That twist should handle some bullets with mass, may even need it!

Oh balls in fast twists= no, the patch will not tolerate that rifling with any power behind it.

Time to get greasy friend, just for me try melting some candle wax in a small tin and add some olive oil or sun flower or veg oil untill you have a paste when cool. Load that stuffer with powder+card+a blob of your paste+a coated bullet+shoot.
Don't ram the card home, ram with the bullet.

BPCR shooters aim to see a star of bullet lube on the muzzle after the shot, with out that they allways say no accurate shooting! You got to see same, you got to keep the fouling fluid so to speak.

I carry some lube for my shot gun and as soon as it starts gettting sticky ramming cards I put some between my card wads. A rifle is no good with a fine finnished barrel and then expect it to shoot full of a rough sooty coating. ENOUGH lube will keep it fluid fouling.

Please try


Nath.

[Griff]

I've shot my Hawken (you guys with the flinters impress the heck outta me) with both lubed patches and spit patches. I've found that spit patches work great during match firing... but I've never loaded with spit patches for hunting or target practice. Just afraid of that patch drying out or causing the start of some corrosion in the chamber.

I still believe that a RB needs a slower spin... it's "grip" distance is so short compared to it's length, too fast a twist will strip the ball thru the lands. This may not mean much in those ~50 grain loads, but you start approaching full loads, and something's gonna give... I strongly suspect that type of acceleration will overcome the ball/patch combination's ability to grip the rifling.

Those R.E.A.L. bullets aren't meant to replace RBs... they're supposedly an easier to load conical due to the smaller surface area of the bullet. Those skinny "lands" are displaced by the rifling easier than a longer land on the traditional conical. More, yet smaller lube grooves are also supposedly capable of holding more lube.

A solid bullet that loads easily even after many firings because of its unique cleaning action.
Will not tumble.
A perfect hunting bullet with heavy loads.
Easy to cast.
Shoots accurately even in greatly oversize barrels.

[Don McDowell]

Nath maybe onto something with those REAL bullets. A card wad between the powder and bullet might just be the ticket.
Those REAL bullets (rifling engraved at loading) were indeed first introduced to replace the round ball as a hunting projectile in 48 and slower twist guns. I shot them in a 50 T/C Hawken, while they did shoot fairly well they never would approach the accuracy capability of the round ball. That rifle was more than accurate enough with round ball loads to be very competive in match shooting , after that bulbous front sight got replaced. Tried them for hunting one fall but they blew thru antelope so fast that never had a goat drop at the shot, as with roundballs, so quit the bullet thing and just stuck with the roundball.

If the patch/ball fit is tight enough and a good patch material is used the ball won't "strip" the rifling, even if you are beating yourself to death with full powder charges.

[Nath]

Don said; If the patch/ball fit is tight enough and a good patch material is used the ball won't "strip" the rifling, even if you are beating yourself to death with full powder charges.

I agree but a too fast a twist will want to tare the patch, the small bearing surface soon uses the lube up and a faster twist is cutting for longer etc.

If them REALS are struggling a grease pack I mentioned earlier may just be the ticket.

Nath.

[HEAD0001]

I basically have the same rifle however mine is a LH flintlock. That rifle will shoot heavy conicals very well. I do not care for the REAL bullets, never could get them to shoot very well. However I cast a large Lyman, and an RCBS Hotchkiss heavy(525 grains), and these bullets shoot great from the Lyman, and my other rifles.

Personally I only care where the first shot goes from my hunting rifles. When sighting in and shooting for groups I clean the rifle between each shot. Who cares where a fouled barrel shot goes when you are hunting with a clean barrel??

One tip for consistency on conicals is to buy a range rod, and a drill stop the same size as the range rod. Once you determine a load then set the drill stop on the range rod so that when you are seating the bullet, the range rod can only go so deep then the drill stop will stop when it connects to the muzzle of the rifle.

Pressure is simply volume and energy(powder). If you are not seating the bullet exactly the same then you are changing the volume. Changing the volume will change the pressure, and your bullet will not be as accurate. It is that simple.

Clean barrel, consistent bullet, consistent depth, consistent ignition, and consistent powder charge=accurate rifle. I premeasure all my powder before I ever get to the range. Tom.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I load an Ox Yoak (sp?) lubed "Wonder Wad" under both patched round ball and bore fitting conicals. Much testing has showed that accuracy is greatly improved in all my rifles with that little lubed felt wad under the bullet.

The Lee REAL bullet is one I have used in.45,50 and 54 cal. and is my favorite ML conical bullet. You will note they make molds in two different weights for each caliber. The lighter of each ,being shorter,is the one for use in the faster twist barrels.

A 380 gr. Lee REAL bullet wont shoot very well in my .54 cal. Hawken with its slow twist but the shorter 300gr.
bullet does quite well.

[44magHunter]

With my dad's T/C Encore 50-cal, I can get 6 shots to touch each other at 50 yards without swabbing between shots. I use Blackhorn209. I think it really is "The Best darn Powder in Muzzleloading", just like they say.

[Rusty]

In a .50 cal 1:66 is a round ball barrel. 1:48 is a compromise, 1:32 is definitely a conical barrel. If you were going to try to shoot RB's it would be for fun with something like a 40 gr powder charge and a really tight patch. I've always swabbed the bore between every shot since the key to accuracy in anything is consistency. It's really not that time consuming once you get a rhythm and a routine.