History Questions

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:28 pm

What types of crowns were commonly used on lever action rifles/carbines from 1890 - 1950? Has anyone ever seen a target style (recessed) crown cut on an older lever? Did Marlin and Winchester always cut the same type of crowns that we see today?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:57 pm

I can only answer for my Winchester carbines and rifles. ALL the carbines have the (for want of a better description) "round" crown. The sole round barrel rifle also has the same crown. All the octagon barrels have a flat crown. As far as I know, these are all original length barrels.

I have not seen an original 94 with any other type of crown at the muzzle. But, I haven't seen all 7 million of them either!

LeverBar · Post by **LeverBar** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:13 pm

Obviously, you need to get out more, Griff.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:26 pm

All my 19th century Marlins have flat crowns. They dont even look to have ever been blued.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:51 pm

All of my old Winchesters have flat crowns except for a 1907 Model 1894 38-55 SRC, which I'm not sure if the crown is flat or very slightly crowned. Even my 1924 Model 53 25-20 levergun has a flat crown.

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:35 pm

Wow, the flat crown thing is news to me. I just always thought that they had a crown of some sort but wasn't sure.

So, does anybody know when crowns first began to appear on lever guns?

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:48 pm

Theyre crowned, just not as we see them today. If you look closely you can see a very slight crown, just enough so the rifleing isn't exposed at the muzzle.

As far as when they started the curved type crown most popular today, I just dont know.
I do have 2 model 1894Marlin carbine barrels with crowns like today that are from the early 1900's but I'm not certain how early & they may well be very late 1800's.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:23 pm

I did some research on this very topic some time ago and this is what I found. There are two different meanings to the word crown.

I offer this photo for demonstration. The area between the outside edge and the inside of the barrel is the muzzle. This particular muzzle is a flat muzzle. Most octagon barrels have flat muzzles. The opening inside from the bottom of the grooves across the diameter is the bore and the height of the lands at the muzzle is the crown. If you look closely you will see a silver line at the edge of the bore. This is the crown. This muzzle, as with most flat muzzles, has a tapered crown that is milled or reamed and polished at the factory and by smiths to the inside edge of the muzzle. This protects the edge of the lands from damage at the last point the bullet touches, increasing accuracy. Now with round barrels this can also all apply. But then some genius long ago decided that while the barrel was in the lathe to turn a radiused muzzle. The inside portion ended at about the same angle as the tapered crown of the flat muzzle but allowed the muzzle to protect the edge of the barrel more because it stuck out further. This type of muzzle was called a crowned muzzle and today is known as the crown. Then there are rebated crowns, tapered crowns and others but this helps with the picture. Does this help?
Gobbler

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:11 pm

Might not all be that way but every modern octagon barrel I'v ever seen has has a radiused crown just like the round barrels. Also every round barrel I have that I KNOW is pre 1900 is flat just like the oct ones.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:35 pm

Can't tell you the Winchester answer, but I can tell you the Marlin answer. Marlin has crowned their carbine barrels ever since the first model 1888 carbine. They have the same rounded crowns back then, that they have today.
As for rifles with octagon, round, or half octagon barrels, they have never had a true "crown". The bores siply had the edge slightly broken after the stub was knocked off, and filed flat. They were not blued, but rather in the white, as the last step in the finishing of a barrel was to knock off the end, which was nearly parted from the barrel in the first step of barrel fitting and finishing. This stub was used to hold or support the muzzle while working the barrel.
In 1936 Marlin went to the rounded crown on all their guns (rifle and carbine) and the old flat crowns went away, as they were considered oldfashioned, and they wanted modern looking rifles.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:09 pm

thanks Vall.
I never gave it much thought before but the thread had me wondering about the carbine barrels I mentioned earlier in the thread. I know a couple of the flat rifle barrels I have are newer than the carbines & was a bit baffled.
nothings ever cut & dry is it.

Boreman · Post by **Boreman** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:08 pm

My 1937 and 1939 M-71's have a "flat crown" and my 1952 M-71 has a "round crown". I often wondered why the crown type was changed.Does anyone know if there any advantages or disadvantages to either.

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:20 pm

Good information from all. Marlinman, that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

Win71 · Post by **Win71** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:11 pm

My 1913 Model 1894 round barrel rifle has a flat crown, 1937 Model 71 has a flat crown, 1938 Model 64 has a flat crown, and my 1948 Model 64 has a round crown. So all of my pre-war rifles have a flat crown.