Pyrodex Corrosion

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:23 pm

I have seen a number of references to Pyrodex and supposed corrosion attributed to it (all other variables having presumably been eliminated as the cause of the observed corrosion). Of course this made me a bit concerned. I've been using Pyrodex since it came on the market, notably Pyrodex P in my cap'n'ball revolvers and in my Thompson Seneca .36 rifle. All together many hundreds of rounds have been fired in each gun. The .36 is my squirrel/small game rifle of choice and my first BP handgun, Lyman branded Pietta, have been in use since 1975 and 1974 respectively.

Sometimes the Lyman goes several years in "standby" mode (as a test) being loaded with 5 and the hammer resting on an unloaded chamber with uncapped nipple. It usually rests in my safe but might come out for contemplation now and again. I live in a moderately humid climate, summers here often have temps approaching 98 degrees with 99% humidity. However, it does get a bit cooler in the house in winter as we have the thermostats set at 62 degrees. My house is anything but climate controlled.

Up until today, the Lyman had spent the last 7 years or so (likely 7 years 8 months) loaded and mostly untouched. I would think that this would have given the demons I call humidity and heat to work their deviltry through condensation and so forth. Because of the recent comments I was finally motivated to end the test (darn curious!) and see what horrible damage had taken place, unseen, over these many years. On my daily trip to a shooting place the short test was conducted with all 5 chambers firing the first time without hangfires or squibs. 5 rounds went downrange and 2 of the 5 hit the 80-yard target. That last surprised me as I wasn't taking much time to sight.

After driving around in today's humidity so that I could complete my chores, I finally got home and took a few minutes to clean the old girl up. I got out the bore light and examined the bore. No pitting. No surprises as it is very easy to clean the bore. I then examined the chambers. No pitting. Ok, so that might be attributed to a thorough cleaning every time the old girl goes out with me. Let me see between hammer and frame, places I likely miss in my rapid cleaning mode. Ummm, there is a little bit of gunk there let me scrape, er, wipe it away. Any pitting underneath? Nope.

I'm thinking it will take much convincing to get me to blame Pyrodex for corrosion damage on my firearms.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:40 pm

Good man Hobie, exactly the same finding for me. I honestly believe that some folk rely on mineral based oil/cleaners for there smoke shooters and thats where the problem starts. My early days before I knew better and the practice of relying on mineral oil did cause damage.
Now I use olive oil (stated many times I know) and never have a problem.
I will and do use olive oil and bees wax paste as a bullet/wad lube and a bore treatment for storage. It is no good as a lube on moving parts though but will effectivly stop any corrosion from flash over onto metal parts and allow storage without cleaning and is kind on the skin.
Good shooting by the way.

Nath.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:42 pm

The target is just a silhouette Nath, not great shooting.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:15 pm

Hobie,

I do not doubt that you and a gazillion shooters have used Pyrodex with great results.
However, I am one of those who has a revolver with pitted chambers and bore due to Pyrodex. There is no other possible explanation in this case as I had fired no other black powder or substitute in that revolver within the previous couple years. No corrosive primers either. I normally do not use Pyrodex, although I had used it before with no ill effects. Hense the partial can of Pyrodex P I found in the back of my loading bench before I left Phoenix. I loaded a box and fired it from both the Ruger and my Win 94AE. Some how the ammo created so much fouling the Winchester became non functional in less than 20 rounds. The Ruger less than 18. By brushing both guns I finished off that box of ammo.
Cleaned them with zero problems, and no pitting after words.

After shooting the first batch I went to a shop and bought some of those lubed wads the cap and ball guys used. Wonder Wads or something like that. Loaded up the rest of the Pyrodex P and set it back. It was a couple years later after I moved to IL that I fired off the rest of that ammo.

I fired it all from my OM BH at an indoor range in one session. 40 some rounds. With the lubed wads I got all of them shot without a problem.
Then I went home, tore the Ruger apart and scrubbed it in hot soapy water just like I'd done in Phoenix with the Pyrodex and black powder previously. After drying the gun I lubed it and put it away.
After the next shooting session with smokeless powder I noticed pits in the bore and the chambers. As I scrubbed the chambers again to verify what I'd found more pits appeared. The bore is freckled and not really hurt, but the chambers are worse.

Now, if not the Pyrodex, then what else did the damage? Smokeless powder with non corrosive non mercuric priming? I really don't think so.
In this specific instance, in spite of my hot soap and water cleaning I'm positive the Pyrodex was not totally removed and worked it's dirty dead.

I've still got the cylinder, but with out a ring flash and a macro lens I can't take pics of the pits in the cylinder or the bore. I'd really like to so I could show what I'm talking about.

Just my experience this one time.

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:23 pm

I just don't see it as being the Pyrodex. There's no more chemical reason for that than there is for it being the primers. I see it as being some other variable you've missed although I've no idea what that might be. .

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:19 pm

Hobie wrote:I just don't see it as being the Pyrodex. There's no more chemical reason for that than there is for it being the primers. I see it as being some other variable you've missed although I've no idea what that might be. .

Hobie, I'd like to know too. The only variable I can think of is the lubed wads. I don't know what they were, but they STUNK BAD when I shot the ammo. A very distinctive acrid odor not present when I shot the Pyrodex before. That is the only difference between the previous batch of Pyrodex and the last batch before the pits appeared. Same cases, same bullets, same primers.

Now, as you know I fired real black powder at the IN Sixguns/Leverguns get together several years ago and again last June from the same Ruger and from IJ. Not a problem in the world, so I don't think it's my cleaning jobs. I'm pretty anal about cleaning after black and Pyrodex.

I don't know what, but something happened that last time with the Pyrodex that ruined a cylinder and damaged my barrel. That I do know.

Joe

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:40 pm

Interesting topic. I know pyrodex does use black powder as part of its formulation, with attendent problems, but have never had problems as mentioned on rust or pitting. I would look at the wad material. Some types of felt seem to have a high corrosive quality if it gets wet. Some who have made up fitted gun boxes and lined them with felt, found their pieces were rusted badly from high humidity or similar conditions. I would believe there is a felt material which doesn't behave like this but have found most common felt, found in dry goods stores, can act like it contains acids. Only idea I have on this. When I clean and dry my muzzle loaders and cap and ball revolvers I always liberally apply good layer of ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and never had any problems develope. ATF doesn't dry or gum and has a high detergent base, I found it to be great for phantom rust problems with my black powder arms. Just wipe off prior to going shooting. Good Luck, you might want to see in your pitted chambers if the pitting extends below where the wads were seated. Just an idea. Have a good week.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:48 pm

Cliff,

The gun I'm talking about is not an Old Army, but an Old Model Blackhawk .45 Colt. All six chambers are pitted front to back.

I don't know what brand or kind of wads they were. I picked up a package of 100 and used them. They were pre lubed with something.

Joe

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:10 pm

I've been cleaning my muzzleloader with windex. I read that the ammonia neutralizes the corrosive agents. Seems to work pretty good so far.

barbarossa · Post by **barbarossa** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:15 pm

I would like to say that I too have used pyrodex since it first came out and have never had a problem with it.I normally clean the bore with a mix of Isopropyl alcohol and
dish detergent(once I found out that my favourite BP solvent at the time was just that and nothing more),then I give it a good flushing with hot water (I use one of those old brass pump water fire extinguishers on all my BP long guns as the nozzle is a perfect fit for 45cal and up) and once everything is dry a good coating of oil.I always check my guns a couple of days later just to make sure.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:51 pm

barbarossa wrote:I always check my guns a couple of days later just to make sure.

I think you hit the key here barbarossa. Cleaning after each session, promptly, is key. Checking within a couple/few days to make sure you didn't miss anything while cleaning, or miss drying anything and oiling afterwards, is critical to ensuring you don't destroy your own gun.

Hobie - great post!

milton · Post by **milton** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:22 am

Here in Alabama it is imperative that once a BP revolver is shot and cleaned it is checked and re-cleaned at least two more times.That is whether I am shooting BP or Pyrodex.I have also found great benefit in cleaning with a water soluble oil to remove traces of water hiding in the gun.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:24 am

Neither black powder nor Pyrodex will cause corrosion if a clean gun is loaded and left loaded. It's after firing that the trouble starts.

Pyrodex, in my experience, can be a great propellant, but it's residue is far more agrressive than BP in its corrosive properties as the fouline contains chlorine salts. Y
Many times,you may leave your BP-fouled gun alone for a few days after firing with no ill effects. Try that with Pyrodex and you will get a corroded mess. Just as with BP, cleaning with water or a water-based solvent is a must.

If you're the least bit lazy about post-shooting cleanup, stick with BP or some substitute like Triple7.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:57 am

I always clean with HOT water, follow with dry patches AND WD-40, after the WD-40 has evaporated I use CLP, errrr, Breakfree. Always works.

You know, we see a number of BP firearms come into the shop for cleaning. I'll have to ask what powder was used and see if I can build up a "database".

The thing is that I have heard MANY folks repeating this thought that Pyrodex is corrosive, even unfired.

Chlorine salts? Chloride salts... I am NO chemist but found this...

chloride (klōr'īd, klôr'–) , chemical compound containing chlorine. Most chlorides are salts that are formed either by direct union of chlorine with a metal or by reaction of hydrochloric acid (a water solution of hydrogen chloride) with a metal, a metal oxide, or an inorganic base. Chloride salts include sodium chloride (common salt), potassium chloride, calcium chloride, and ammonium chloride. Most chloride salts are readily soluble in water, but mercurous chloride (calomel) and silver chloride are insoluble, and lead chloride is only slightly soluble. Some chlorides, e.g., antimony chloride and bismuth chloride, decompose in water, forming oxychlorides. Many metal chlorides can be melted without decomposition; two exceptions are the chlorides of gold and platinum. Most metal chlorides conduct electricity when fused or dissolved in water and can be decomposed by electrolysis to chlorine gas and the metal. Chlorine forms compounds with the other halogens and with oxygen; when chlorine is the more electronegative element in the compound, the compound is called a chloride. Thus, compounds with bromine and iodine are bromine chloride, BrCl, and iodine chloride, ICI, but compounds with oxygen or fluorine (which are more electronegative than chlorine) are oxides (e.g., chlorine dioxide, ClO2) or fluorides (e.g., chlorine fluoride, ClF) respectively. Many organic compounds contain chlorine, as is indicated by common names such as carbon tetrachloride, methylene chloride, and methyl chloride. However, in the nomenclature system for organic chemistry adopted by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC), the presence in a compound of chlorine bonded to a carbon atom is indicated by the prefix or infix chloro; thus, carbon tetrachloride is tetrachloromethane, methylene chloride is dichloromethane, and methyl chloride is chloromethane.

PS - I just remembered that I'd fired some Pyrodex RS through my 1876. Cleaning consisted of firing some smokeless ammo afterward and a couple of passes with an oily bore snake. I went to look at it. No discernible pitting.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:10 am

Hobie,
I have used Pyrodex in the past, thankfully with no issues. The key is to make sure that one cleans very shortly after shooting because Pyrodex contains some potassium perchlorate. Remember the corrosive primers of yesteryear? They contained that compound. Many rifle bores were ruined by corrosive primers because they were not cleaned quickly or properly.

By comparison, I am much more at ease with black powder, and in fact have left some fouling in the bore for as much as two weeks before cleaning and it was bright and shiney again after several patches of moosemilk. If I left Pyrodex in the bore that long there would sure to be problems.

w30wcf

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:11 pm

Thanks for posting John... I do clean promptly, perhaps that's why I've had no issues.

potassium perchlorate

Paul Jenkins · Post by **Paul Jenkins** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:22 pm

Gentlemen,
A very interesting subject to me. Thank you all for your remarks. I have always wondered about keeping a loaded percusson pistol for defense and haven't because of fear of corrosion.
Forty yrs. ago a friend had an original .31 cal. colt that was loaded.How long I can't say, but, at least 50 yrs. I pulled the bullets and cleaned to find a nearly pit free cyl. and a perfect bore. Sorry I didn't ask to buy.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:44 pm

Hobie wrote:Thanks for posting John... I do clean promptly, perhaps that's why I've had no issues.

potassium perchlorate

Now I'm bummed. Not only did I have problems with Pyrodex that ended up with a pitted pistol, I did clean it promptly, right after I got home. So why was I singled out by Murphy to be picked on?
I think I'm gonna

I do believe that a call or an email to Hodgdons with this scenario might be worth the time and effort. I believe I'll do that and report back with their answer.

Later gaters

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:29 pm

I'd like to hear about that Joe. Thanks for doing the leg work.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:09 pm

J Miller wrote:So why was I singled out by Murphy to be picked on?

Because he apparently lost track of me for a few minutes...

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:30 pm

I have 3 BP firearms all which PYRODEX has been the primary propellent. NONE have any signs of rust. All have been cleaned with HOT SOAPY WATER followed by drying and applying a thin coat of oil to protect.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:17 pm

I won't use Pyrodex as I've experienced some of what Joe has in my Colts. Back in the late '80s SASS went from requiring C&B to allowing cartridge guns. One of my closest friends and competitors helped me tremedously to make the transition. .45Colt ain't no stranger to BP... but mine were! I'd shot Pyrodex RS outta my muzzleloader along with BP... but figured it might be better to run Pyrodex thru my Dillon to load my BP .45Colts.

Along with this was a new to me Sharp's 1874 in .40-90SBN, which I intended to hunt with and ocassionly shoot BPCRS.

At this same shoot, this close friend and fellow competitor described and explained what happened to him and another top shooter in BPCRS using Pyrodex in cartridge guns.

Hobie,
I have used Pyrodex in the past, thankfully with no issues. The key is to make sure that one cleans very shortly after shooting because Pyrodex contains some potassium perchlorate. Remember the corrosive primers of yesteryear? They contained that compound. Many rifle bores were ruined by corrosive primers because they were not cleaned quickly or properly.

Part of the problem could be laid at Hodgdon's feet. Many of their early ads espoused this as a replacement for BP and could be treated as smokeless. If not literally, then by inference. This is simply not the case. If not cleaned aggressively and quickly, it is actually more corrosive than BP. And smokeless compatible cleaners and solvents won't do the job.

I've simply come to the conclusion, that if I have to do the cleaning like BP... I might as well use BP. For those that live in an area that that isn't a solution... well you have my sympathy.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:48 am

Griff,

It is unfortunate that many local areas have no BP for sale and many are unaware they can order it by mail.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:10 am

Hobie: it is also unfortunate that many areas have restrictions on the am't. of BP that a person can buy in one day & the total am't. posessed.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:22 pm

OK, here is the email I just sent to Hodgdon's. I will post their answer when I get it.

8-13-09,

To Hodgdon’s Technical department; Pyrodex Question.

On the Leverguns.com forum we have a thread running regarding corrosion and rust caused by the use of Pyrodex powder. The thread URL is: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19894 .
Most of the posters have posted that they get excellent results from Pryrodex powder with no problems with rust or corrosion. On the other hand there are a couple who have mentioned problems. I am one of them.

Let me tell you my story in better detail than I did on the forum:
In the early 90s when I was living in Phoenix, AZ I purchased a pound of Pyrodex CTG, Lot # 1 31801 to load in 45 Colt ammo. I loaded 100 rounds, shot 10, and then for some reason that my records don’t indicate I pulled the other 90 rounds and dumped the powder. My records indicate the load was 25grs of powder fired by Win WLP primers with a cast 255gr RFN bullet.

The can got shuffled to the back of my powder cabinet until 97 when I found it and decided to load up the remainder and finish it off.
According to my records the charge weight 25grs, the bullets used were D&A Sales 255gr RNFP, and the primers were Winchester WLP. There were 50 rounds loaded in this batch. Along with some apparently loaded between these two batches that my records don’t mention. ( I’m comparing my loading records to my records of rounds fired for each gun. )
Some of this combined batch was fired 12-6-97 in cold weather in AZ. Both guns used, my OM BH and Winchester 94AE Trapper both in .45 Colt were badly fouled and required some major brushing to continue shooting.
The next day both were stripped to the last screw and scrubbed in hot soap and water. Then rinsed in hot water till the metal was hot and dried by itself. After that both were well lubed and put away till the next time.

My records indicate several shooting sessions with my OM Blackhawk where some of this Pyrodex was fired. One with a total of 50 rounds followed by another 55 rounds of smokeless ammo with both lead and jacketed bullets.

The last of this powder was loaded on 5-6-98. My records indicate I used approximately 25grs of powder with an added lubed wad, Winchester, LP #7-111 primers and Federal LP #150 primers with the same D&A Sales 255gr RNFP bullets.
The wad was used in hopes it would reduced the fouling to a level that would allow the gun to function till all the remaining 78 rounds were fired. I think the package was marked “Wonder Wads” or something similar but my records do not say and I cannot remember. As you can see there is some confusion between my records.

This last batch of Pyrodex was fired in Springfield, IL at an indoor range on 5-22-99.
The Ruger was cleaned as it had been cleaned before; in hot soap and water then rinsed and when dried oiled. It was not taken to the range again and fired until October of 2000, 17 months.

When cleaning the gun after that session I found light pits in the barrel, from forcing cone to muzzle, and pitting in all six chambers. It seamed that the more I cleaned the chambers, the more pits I saw. Eventually this stopped, but it actually looks to my eyes as if small areas of the chamber surface scaled off.

The cylinder was replaced in February of 03, and I have since fired several sessions of real black powder through this gun with zero problems.

After having said all this, my question to you is what might have happened to cause these pits, when it was cleaned the same as it had been in prior Pyrodex sessions and lubed.
The only variables are the wads used, and the 17 months of non use. One thing though, in those 17 months the gun was kept wiped down and oiled. So it wasn’t ignored.
And, the Winchester still has no pits from it’s Pyrodex use.

Any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely Joseph Miller
J Miller on Leverguns.com forum

Hopefully they'll come here and read the thread. That would be cool.

Joe

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:34 pm

Well, here is the answer I got. Pretty much the blow off I expected. He ignored what I told him and just gave me the standard pat answer. My questions are still NOT answered to my satisfaction.

It's too bad Hodgdon's has such a monopoly on gun powder, you almost can't help but do business with them.
With this "our pelosi don't stink attitude" I think I'm going to really try to find something else to use.

Joe

Pyrodex is no more corrosive than black powder and no harder to clean than black powder. This has been proven by our testing as well as the Department of Defense and NASA as both have investigated the use Pyrodex for their uses.

The only way that there was corrosion on your firearms is that there was residue left on the metal of there was a lack of metal protectant on bare metal and the gun rusted.

There is no other explanation I can think of.

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants:

Hodgdon Powder Company

IMR Powder Company

Winchester Smokeless Powders

GOEX Powder Company

Pyrodex

Triple Seven

White Hots

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:01 pm

Joe,

Not to seem insensitive, but that may well be the answer. I know in my case, that until I tried cleaning with the usual BP cleaners, (i.e. HOT, soapy water, etc), any use of a smokeless solvents left my guns with a residue... and since my wife has an olfactory problem, (Hoppe's #9 is like an aphrodi...TMI), I LIKE to use it!

I don't believe that simple water, cold or even hot, will do the trick with Pyrodex as it will with real BP. I can't tell you the number of times that just rinsing out the fouling and re-oiling is all the care my guns might get between outings with real BP. I KNOW that doesn't work with Pyrodex. My bores are not pitted, nor is there rust evident, NOW... but after a practice day in TX, I did a quick rinse with water and oiling, & took off for Raton for the BPCRS Championships in 1990. By the time I got there, the Sharps was awash in flash rust inside the bore. If I hadn't asked around and got the info about the type of fouling left, I just know that would have been a major problem in a few more days. The Colt were a similar experience, and happened a couple of years earlier after a two day shoot in Williams, AZ, then a leisurely drive down thru AZ and back to CA. The Colt was a MESS when I got home. Cleaned up, but took most of the bluing with it.

I had some left over from that last ordeal in Raton... and earlier this year I cleared it outta my loadin' bench by using it up in some 12 gauge cowboy loads. Took extra care in cleanin' up my old Stoeger cowboy twice-by... and good as new.

Cleanin' properly is the key... Just wished they'd been a bit more forth-coming.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:07 pm

Griff,
Read my post again. I did not use just plain water or smokeless solvents. I used hot soap and water and lots of it. Rinsed it with hot water till it was hot enough to dry itself then oiled it. This worked the numerous times I used Pyrodex before, why did it not work this time? That's all I want to know.

It's not that it really matters now, as I've quit using Pyrodex products completely. For a very long time it's real black or smokeless only.
Damaged cylinder's been replaced.
I'm just curious and confused.

Joe

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:14 pm

Sorry Joe,

Hadn't read that part before I put in my last two posts... but what you describe fits with the info I was given by my pard and his "partner in crime" in Raton. He said, that often one would have to reclean after using Pyrodex... even if you "thought" you'd done a real good job the first time and all appeared well. I haven't experienced that, but I have no reason to doubt the word of either of the two gentlemen that bent my ear for a couple of hours and several barley pops, edjumcatin' me!

And, you either, for that matter.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:49 pm

Well, if it's all my fault I'll just go hang my head and .... well learn from my boo boos.

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:04 pm

Griff wrote:I won't use Pyrodex as I've experienced some of what Joe has in my Colts. Back in the late '80s SASS went from requiring C&B to allowing cartridge guns. One of my closest friends and competitors helped me tremedously to make the transition. .45Colt ain't no stranger to BP... but mine were! I'd shot Pyrodex RS outta my muzzleloader along with BP... but figured it might be better to run Pyrodex thru my Dillon to load my BP .45Colts.

Along with this was a new to me Sharp's 1874 in .40-90SBN, which I intended to hunt with and ocassionly shoot BPCRS.

At this same shoot, this close friend and fellow competitor described and explained what happened to him and another top shooter in BPCRS using Pyrodex in cartridge guns.

Hobie,
I have used Pyrodex in the past, thankfully with no issues. The key is to make sure that one cleans very shortly after shooting because Pyrodex contains some potassium perchlorate. Remember the corrosive primers of yesteryear? They contained that compound. Many rifle bores were ruined by corrosive primers because they were not cleaned quickly or properly.
Part of the problem could be laid at Hodgdon's feet. Many of their early ads espoused this as a replacement for BP and could be treated as smokeless. If not literally, then by inference. This is simply not the case. If not cleaned aggressively and quickly, it is actually more corrosive than BP. And smokeless compatible cleaners and solvents won't do the job.

I've simply come to the conclusion, that if I have to do the cleaning like BP... I might as well use BP. For those that live in an area that that isn't a solution... well you have my sympathy.

That is similar to the military's early experience with the M16 in Vietnam. They promoted the gun as not needing maintenance but it did, particularly with the ammunition as it was then loaded and issued in theater.

I still think that there must be an unknown/unidentified variable Joe and you missed in your experiences with Pyrodex. I simply haven't had that experience. I was thinking too, but can't find the reference, that Ox Yoke used Pyrodex in their 1000 shot test of Wonderlube/Natural Lube 1000. They didn't clean the gun (a TC New Englander I think) for 1000 shots that were done over several days. I found this reference:

August 1, 1990 - Ox-Yoke, using a T/C New Englander, completed a test firing of 1,000 consecutive shots without cleaning. The test took over five weeks to complete. The rifle loaded easily and safely and shot more accurately th...an with any other tested lube. Note: The last four rounds fired, grouped 1-1/4” at 50 yards.

...but I can't find with any certainty that they did use Pyrodex.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:05 pm

J Miller wrote:Well, if it's all my fault I'll just go hang my head and .... well learn from my boo boos.

Joe

I think we'd all like to know exactly what happened so that we DON'T do it, too.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:06 pm

I wish I knew also Hobie. Hodgdon is a great friend to the competitive shooter, both the recreational and hunter/reloader. During the first 5 years that I ran our little club in TX, they were quite generous with their donations for our annual shoot. I use many of their powders... and have very little to quibble about.

One thing I do know, is that two other folks I know said (at that time) Pyrodex seemed to require more than one cleaning to stem it's propensity to corrode. Remember, this is going back some 18 years. There very could well have been changes in the formulation they used at that time, and the present. Also... I seem to recall they had an explosion in their Pyrodex factory and were off-line for a while. Don't recall the particulars, nor the exact time they were down. I'm sure that changes were made before they were back on-line.

I also seem to recall some other issue in the late '80s or early '90s; but, again, don't recall the specifics.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:35 am

Yes, the inventor, Dan Pawlek (sp?), was killed in that explosion. They rebuilt the plant because Pyrodex was the ONLY viable substitute at the time. I don't know if that resulted in a reformulation. I had a quantity of Pyrodex P from before the explosion and have used a lot of RS produced AFTER the explosion. I can't see a difference but I don't think what I can see in use means much.

I don't remember another issue, guess we should do some research or rely on an industry insider. I wonder if Terry knows anything...

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:20 am

I just found where Sam Fadala did a corrosion test with Pyrodex and concluded that "Pyrodex did not damage bores." The reference is "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook", page 203. Same reference also notes that Pyrodex's formulation has changed since it was first released.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:34 am

The can I was using was bought in 1990. I wonder if it was the previous formulation or the later one?

As an aside, last June in IN I fired off a bunch of black powder through both my OM BH and my IJ. I cleaned them with Windex in IN then with hot soap and water when I got back here in IL. Last night I double checked them and all is well.
The deal with my Ruger and the Pyrodex was a one time thing, so Hobie you are right, something was different. And the only two things I can think of was the lubed wad, and the 17 months of not shooting the gun afterwords. Previously I'd always be out shooting within at least a week or so and then cleaning again.

Joe

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:59 am

Guys guys, I keeps try'n to tell ya, use olive oil. Don't put any kind of mineral based lube /oil or greased wads near a gun that uses BP or Pyrodex.
Sam Fadalas favourite was Sperm oil.

Go n' try it for Pete's sake

Nath

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:24 pm

I'm with Nath!

(Well, not WITH him...)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:27 pm

I ain't sure about "mineral" but certainly, "petroleum" based lubes are a definite "no-no"!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:53 pm

Think they are the same thing,no?

Nath.

BigMuddy · Post by **BigMuddy** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:27 pm

I can say that my personal experience with Pyrodex vs BP is that Pyrodex is more corrosive. I have seen this debate before, and heard Mike Daily saying it is not, but I know that when I clean my guns after BP use I never find any rust, and when I use Pyrodex I always do. I have to check them again two or three times for a week after using Pyrodex.

Mike Venturino wrote that he only uses Pyrodex in his own guns and never if he has to borrow one for testing. The reason he states is that his own guns he can keep checking for rust, but cannot do that after he returns borrowed guns.

I had a brass powder measure that I had used for years, and it never corroded at all. ONE TIME I used Pyrodex in it, and the next time I got it out of my possibles bag it was corroded so bad I had to throw it away.

Took my C&B Revolvers out one time to compare accuracy with Pyrodex pellets and real BP. Two identical revolvers, two different propellants. Used the same cleaning method on each gun as soon as I got home. Two days later...BP gun is clean as a whistle and the Pyrodex gun is showing that orange color of rust in the chambers and in the bore. Re-cleaning and all was fine. (those pellets shoot great in revolvers BTW)

I use it at times, but I know it is going to be more corrosive and I act accordingly when I do.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:44 am

It has been my personal experience that Pyrodex is exactly like blackpowder in caplock and 209 primer guns. It works great and I buy a lot of it for $5.00 a can at the end of the season at Walmart. As long as the gun is cleaned after each session it's fine.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:03 am

I'm pretty sure I've posted in this thread already, but BigMuddy said it true. Pyrodex causes corrosion and rust. I've got a pitted barrel and cylinder to prove it. And I did clean the gun.
I'll never touch the stuff again.

Joe

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:22 am

Pyrodex causes corrosion and rust.

No one said it didn't.

I've got a pitted barrel and cylinder to prove it.

I've owned a bunch of barrels that were ruined with GOEX blackpowder.

Both are highly corrosive.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:02 pm

I believe the greatest disservice to the BP community was early on, when the makers of "natural" lubricants gave the impression that immediate cleaning was not necessary with their products.

BP and pyrodex contain salts and no amount of oil, natural or otherwise, will stop salt from corroding steel, even stainless.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:40 pm

765x53 wrote:I believe the greatest disservice to the BP community was early on, when the makers of "natural" lubricants gave the impression that immediate cleaning was not necessary with their products.

BP and pyrodex contain salts and no amount of oil, natural or otherwise, will stop salt from corroding steel, even stainless.

correct, hot water dissolves the salts= end of problem!

I just checked my Enfield barrel that was last used in March with pyrodex, clean as a whistle and cleaned with hot water plus coated in beef fat x olive oil paste/grease.

N.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:21 pm

Nath,

My family quit whaling in the 1940's.

Where does one find sperm oil nowadays?

My Great Uncle Tom Jackson c. 1910.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:07 pm

Nath wrote:
765x53 wrote:I believe the greatest disservice to the BP community was early on, when the makers of "natural" lubricants gave the impression that immediate cleaning was not necessary with their products.

BP and pyrodex contain salts and no amount of oil, natural or otherwise, will stop salt from corroding steel, even stainless.

correct, hot water dissolves the salts= end of problem!

I just checked my Enfield barrel that was last used in March with pyrodex, clean as a whistle and cleaned with hot water plus coated in beef fat x olive oil paste/grease.

N.

I did use hot water and it obviously did not dissolve the salts from the Pyrodex. That is what I have been saying for several years now and NOBODY will listen to what I'm saying.

Joe