OT: combat shotgun?

[donw]

i went to my local big five yesterday in a quest for some ammo and i noticed a pump shotgun on their rack that was equipped with a bayonet fixed and ready for action. (i'm also aware, and have seen the SKS rifles being sold, with bayonets permanently attached, and have the same reaction to them as well.)

i also noticed there was a price tag on the bayonet: $119.99...the shotgun it was attached to had a price tag on it of $399.00.

the shotgun is fully equipped for "fixed bayonet" by the manufacturer.

i guess i'm so taken aback by this that i don't really know what to say.

i was trained in bayonet fighting in the U.S. Army and it's very difficult for me to envision someone actually using a "fixed" bayonet in a "defense" situation (other than in a combat/war situation). it's even more difficult to imagine a legislator/prosecutor who would NOT demand a maximum penalty for someone using a "fixed" bayonet in ANY scenerio where someone may be injured or killed..."self defense" or not. after all bayonets were not designed or intended for "hunting" or "sporting" use were they?

those of you who have undergone bayonet training will recall that the "thrust" movements would take up most of the room in a normal house anyway, especially the "long thrust"...

iMO is that unless a person is trained in the use of a bayonet, attached to the appropriate rifle, they stand more of a chance of being hurt themselves than successfully fending off an attacker. the use of an edged/pointed weapon is in an entirely different world in it's own.

not only that, the emotional impact of using a bayonet ...

[mikld]

I think the "combat" additions are for looks only; to attract a certain buyer (mall ninja or psuedo-militia types). To some they (bayoneys, lasers, flashlights, red dot sights, etc.) look "cool". For a professional (security, LEO, etc.) all these gadgets probably have a use, but I have no use for any. I have no military bayonet training and think that it looks silly. Anyone that knows about home/self protection would probably laugh too.

[horsesoldier03]

Would love to see the look on a burglars face when confronted inside a home by a man welding a combat shotgun with fixed bayonet! That shotgun was IDEAL for TRENCH WARFARE!

COLD STEEL

[Paladin]

After shooting an 1897 Winchester that was still in the arms room at Ft Hood TX in the 70s and now using one for Cowboy action shooting (without the heat shield) I could see a bayonet on a shotgun as a psyops weapon.

[Nazgul]

I can't see why we should not be able to own and use bayonets as we see fit. If I need to defend myself with a gun or bayonet, I'm not worrying about some pansy who might find it offensive.

Don

SGT USMC
75-82

[MrMurphy]

Probably attached for sale to the mall ninja types.

Former military police, I can see the value a shotgun with bayonet attached (or rifle with one attached) for crowd control.

Arabs have a real thing against blades and pistols, while rifles do not apparently faze them in the least. In the Iraqi case, Saddam's executioners were the big users of pistols, where every Akhmed, Mustafa and Hassan on the street had access to an AK-47 by law, so pistols and knives scare them. Friend of mine stopped a minor riot that way, his boys had rifles shouldered, safeties ready to come off, and they were getting squirrely, he pulled his Beretta and pointed it at lead instigator and everyone suddenly got REAL QUIET.....

So while combat value is probably little, for sheer intimidation, yes, it probably has a place. For home use......unless you'd been formally trained on them or the guy had a death wish running at you, the bayonet would be purely for intimidation.

[Wind]

Hey there donw - Was this a Norinco 1897 "trenchgun" reproduction? Best regards Wind.

[2ndovc]

A very good friend of mine on station in Italy after his tour in Vietnam
was a guard at a missle battery.

It was 1969-70 and tensions were running high all over to end the
hostilities.

There was a protest at the main gate by a large grup of Italians

The CO assembled a squad inside the gate. No affect on the protesters.
He then called for the opening of the gate and to "Fix bayonets"!

The protesters scattered.

A rifle is intimidating. A rifle with a mounted bayonet it even more so!

jb

[Pisgah]

Since the introduction of the repeating combat rifle, the bayonet has had only one practical use -- psychological intimidation. It is very true that even people who show an almost complete indifference to threats with a gun will give way quick when a blade is in play. There is still a place for, "Fix bayonets!" This is one of the reasons I have always favored a ridiculously big Bowie-style knife in combat situations. If I'm at the point of needing a dadgum knife, I want absolutely the meanest-looking, sharpest son-of-a-gun I can tote. Mine is durn near a short sword, and very effective.

[mikld]

I fully understand the above posts about the intimidation value of a fixed bayonet. But, a shotgun for sale at a Big 5, in California, I'm sure is aimed not at professionals or soldiers, but as I stated earlier to wannabees, IMO.

[2ndovc]

Well if you want to call me a wannabe then be my guest.


I had a Mossberg 590 with bayonet lug and bought an early M16 bayonet for it.
I gave it to my best friend because he was having trouble with vagrants, drunks and junkies where he was
living. At the time Cleveland Emergency Services required that you lived W/ in the City limits.

With that shotgun and pigsticker he never had any more problems. I never would
have given it to him if it wasn't one of the most darned reliable
and toughest shotguns I've ever had.

The sight of a cyl. bore and blade bayonet can not be quatified. Especially at 2 AM and it's pointed at you!

jb

[Hobie]

I think that anyone worried about a bayonet will have to be worried about pitchforks (and you can take that literally or figuratively). The shotgun has 50 yards effective range the bayonet (I'm thinking the 1917 bayonet on a shotgun) of about 3 FEET. Sheese...

There are many collectible 1897 and 1912 Winchesters with the bayonet mount and heat shield. There are many 1917 bayonets. None have been used in a crime that I know of. PLUS the 2nd Amendment AIN'T ABOUT SPORT!!!!!!!

[madman4570]

That would be the last thing I would need on a shotgun
Ditch that idea and go for a 3 Watt LED Tactical Flashlight with Auto Strobe if you just have to have somthing extra on it!
And remember if you live where there is any remote chance a bear might get in your kitchen(have at least a couple of slugs at the ready)

[awp101]

That shotgun was IDEAL for TRENCH WARFARE!

IIRC the Germans were so shocked by their effectiveness and psychological impact on the troops in the trenches, they lobbied to have them outlawed by the Geneva Convention.

Give me a squad armed with Thompsons, 1897s w/bayos and a BAR gunner or two and there's not a trench we couldn't handle...

[2ndovc]

That would be the last thing I would need on a shotgun
Ditch that idea and go for a 3 Watt LED Tactical Flashlight with Auto Strobe if you just have to have somthing extra on it!
And remember if you live where there is any remote chance a bear might get in your kitchen(have at least a couple of slugs at the ready)

Yeah, flashlight are Scary!

[madman4570]

Jason, Its only scary if the strobe suddenly hits your eyes in the pitch black room and you arent the one holding the shotgun!

[AJMD429]

I'll give the same answer as I did for "combat revolver"...it is an "NFA" weapon, but they are available still. Virtually zero recoil due to their weight, and incredible 'intimidation' factor due to the 'tommy-gun' like appearance, combined with a VERY large muzzle opening. Put alternate loads of buckshot and slugs in one, and you have a 'cannon' assuring NOBODY will enter your Castle...

This is the one I'd least want to go up against... (holds a dozen 12 ga. Mag shells, including slugs)



(Photo off Gunbroker - http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.a ... =129903167 - may still be for sale!)

[dbateman]

there are no practical resons outside of war to have a bayonet but i own a few for my Lithgows and one for
my k98 now im not going to fit them any time soon for home defense oh hang on i live in Australia IM not allowed to
defend my self...dam never mind

[Griff]

"Fix Bayonets" scared me as much as it would have scared anyone else! Having done a lil' knife work (t'weren't fightin') in that lil' SEA police action, I'll take a toad sticker as a much quieter alternative for home defense. At 2am, I have to consider my neighbors "beauty sleep"!

[Ysabel Kid]

A bayonet on a shotgun would simply make it that much more intimidating, as if looking at it's yawning muzzle wasn't enough. I could easly see it having some real-world defensive applications, if someone was properly trained, in a home situation. Think "spectrum of escalation"; i.e. - first you threaten, then the pointy stick, and finally the lethal force. One would think that might help you if you had to defend yourself in court after having to defend your very life and the lives of your loved-ones at home, but I fear that in today's society, a prosecuter would make mince-meat out of you if you used a bayonet-fitted weapon. I can hear the argument now. "Mr. 'So-n-So' bought this evil assualt weapon with this viscious large bayonet and couldn't wait to use it the first chance he had. He aggressively attacked Mr. 'I'm-now-a-victim' who was just trying to make ends meet in this difficult economy."

Goodbye America. Hello UK...

[Pete44ru]

[bayonets were not designed or intended for "hunting" or "sporting" use were they?]

[the 2nd Amendment AIN'T ABOUT SPORT !!!!!!!]

+ 2,574,697 Amen.

.

[rjohns94]

One of my early shotguns I bought was a Mossberg 500, parkerized and militarized, having a bayonet lug for an m-16 bayonet. Had nice wood on it as i remember. the bayonet gave it a rather heavy muzzle and I never considered using it as a thrusting weapon while I owned the shotgun. It went down the road for something, don't really remember what.

[madman4570]

For the normal person having a attached bayonet on a defense shotgun I think could end up being a bad idea because that person thinking "this is intimidating"to scare off a burglar might end up just getting themselves killed.That burglar just might be packing his own gun and someone thinking this will scare them and losing focus on their own firearm for a spilt second gives that burglar their split second they need.If he sees that bayonet coming towards him he probably is going to shoot you.(though he also probably will if he sees a gun too)but its better to just focus on your loaded aimed gun(not a knife attached to it)not thinking of a intimidation factor! Again the normal unexperienced person might just feel a false sense of security with it and not focus correctly on what they should be focusing on.A trained military /or other combat trained person used to them its their call.For anyone else its their call also!
Had em on my SKSs,took em all off!

[donw]

wind...it was not a norinco repro...it was the new mossberg.

i agree with the "mall rat" assessment and a person who is NOT trained in bayonet fighting/edged weapons/martial arts weilding a bayonet...makes me cringe. and yes, we do have the right to defend ourselves in whatever way is available and necessary.

i, too attended that SEA police action with the 25 inf along the northern mekong...fortunately never had to go to "fix bayonets"...

i doubt seriously if a bayonet is covered by the second amendment.

just the sight of a "fixed bayonet" in the hands of a trained soldier is, indeed, intimidating; no doubt about it. it's just that it seems so out of place in a civilian application of "home/self defense"...acceptable/legal? yes...practical? IMO...FWIW...no.

[shdwlkr]

future weapons did a show on the new military shotgun has either a 20 or 32 round drum mag and can fire full auto. They have some really cool ammo for them also and they were saying the range was 200 yards effective. Don't think I want to be on the wrong side of that thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c take a look at it!!!!!!!!

[madman4570]

Lets see! 32X 15 00buck(.33)=495 .33 balls in about 2 seconds! Your Right!

[charliehawkman]

That would be the last thing I would need on a shotgun
Ditch that idea and go for a 3 Watt LED Tactical Flashlight with Auto Strobe if you just have to have somthing extra on it!
And remember if you live where there is any remote chance a bear might get in your kitchen(have at least a couple of slugs at the ready)

Yeah, flashlight are Scary!

Well yes it's scary but maybe you can try the Side Saddle Light Mount in your shotgun that attaches almost any flashlight to your Side Saddle Shell Holder. It is also is ideal for use in 12ga. This unique mount clamps securely into one shell holder and leaves the others available for shotshells.

[FWiedner]

So you're sayin' that you couldn't poke a deer in the butt with a bayonet to see it it's dead?

[Simplyrugged]

Pardon me, but the second amendment doesn't mention any specifics as to types of weapons. Keep and bear Arms. Our for fathers used rifles and smooth bore muskets with bayonets to wrest our freedom from the grip of King George.
Maybe you didn't realize it but, your argument sounds like you took excerpts from a Barbra Boxer speech.

No, I'm not rushing out to buy a bayonet, but who are we to gainsay someone's choice in weaponry?
As an MP,I have witnessed, more than once, the effect of the bayonet when attached to the end of a weapon- it scares the hell of of folks.
And I do agree, it is marketed to the Mall Ninja crowd, so what, it's a free country, for the most part.
I'll bet the sell thousands of these: more power to them.

[AJMD429]

THIS would be cool. (I didn't say 'practical' - but 'cool' nonetheless...)



...but back to the original post - for a serious 'Combat Shotgun' I might just go without the bayonet:

[salvo]

A bayonet lug never bothered me. Guess I should not be able to own my 590A1
Must be something in the CA water?
I didn't even know I was a mall ninja.

[firefuzz]

I don't consider myself a mall ninja, none of my "combat" shotguns have a bayonet lug on them but a friend of mine is developing a barrel mounted bayonet lug that will allow attachment of any Enfield type bayonet, either spike or blade, to any 12ga shotgun and I will have a couple of those stuck back just in case zombies attack.

With the decrease in overall weapon length, from almost 6 feet to a little over 2 feet, and the increase in magazine capacity, from 1 to 5-10 to 30, and the rapid reloading with detachable box magazines, the use of the bayonet as a "combat" weapon had declined dramatically in the past 60 years. Going back to a "combat" weapon that's again limited to 5-10 rounds a bayonet again makes sense.

And the fact still remains that it's really hard to grab a knife and not get cut.

Rob

[COSteve]

Before you go out and equip your HD weapon with a bayonet, be sure and check your state's laws. In Colorado where we have the 'Make My Day' law, you can defend yourself with any form of firearm but if you attach a bayonet to it you have an illegal spear. Go figure.

[Hankster]

All of you guys are wrong!! It was one of those new "Ronco" all in one "Deer-a Matic" shotguns for Slug hunters!! Shoot the deer, slices and dices him up in seconds!! LOL!!

[O.S.O.K.]

Not for mall ninjas - no. The Norinco retro m97 trench clones are targeted squarely at US. Yes, us here.

And while I have little interest in a chicom repro of the m97 trench gun, I would cherish an original.

But it wouldn't be pressed into home defense service - I have a bunch of handguns and a Marlin CS that are performing that duty for me.

[AJMD429]

The most practical civilian use I've seen for a bayonet was when our only place out back where we could shoot was so muddy you didn't dare lay anything down on the ground without a tarp; when we shot SKS's, we'd just jab them in the ground where we were standing when we went out to change targets.

[buckeyeshooter]

Bayonet? We don't need no stinking bayonets!! Once you look down the wrong end of the twin tubes of my sawed off 10ga, intimidation from a bayonet is a moot point!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm16 ... bbl001.jpg