Rossi 92 45 Colt accuracy? Update

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:17 pm

In the midst of my other topic was a problem that I would like to hear any feedback on.

I found that my Super Blackhawk which is OK but not great on accuracy will shoot very well with on of my standard 44 Special loads. See the target but the Rossi 92 Colt off the bench was terrible with a light 45 Colt load I use - as far as I can measure the front driving band of the 250 gr Keith SWCs and the bore are both .452". I will have to try other bullets - it doesn't seem to get along with this one. I love the rifle though.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:23 pm

You sure about that?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:33 pm

Well Mescy - I am sure these don't work and sure I need some help with 10" 50 yd groups - that is the worst I have ever seen in any rifle.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:39 pm

Have you slugged it yet? What is the load and how hard is the bullet? How is the crown?
I know lots of questions but not many details in your original post.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:43 pm

Crown is great, bullet is hard. I measured the barrel as best I could with a calipers. .452 was the largest I could get. The bullet measures .452 at the front driving band of a Keith SWC 250. That is all I can measure on the remaining bullets.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:47 pm

Fred,

I had a Rossi 92 in .45 Colt for a while. I do not know what the grove diameter was, but I can tell you it preferred .454" bullets. Especially if the bullets were hard cast. Softer bullets were OK at .452" if I pushed them at standard .45 Colt pressures. Light loads were fair to dismal.

If you can get some of the exact bullets only sized to .454" give them a try. It just might be the answer to your rifles idiosyncrasies.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:50 pm

Joe that is what I suspect. I had another and is shot great with some of Cowboytutt's heavy 300 gr loads. We'll see - he may be coming down in couple of weeks.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:54 pm

That is kind of what I was thinking a larger slug should fix it or up the load with the bullet you have to see if it will obdurate enough. Tutts 300gr load is fun.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:22 pm

OS, my Rossi 92 carbine shoots my Colt load with great accuracy. I shoot a hard cast 255 grain slug over 7.8 grains of Unique. I have never slugged the barrel because it shoots my loads so well. Have you tried increasing the powder charge?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:46 pm

Jerry I just have the one load right now because I just got back into the 45 Colt. I have a back log of reloading to do. I think a bigger bullet will help. Unfortunately I don't think the 45 will be on the Que in the near future. I'll have to see, my reloading time is limited in summer because of the heat here and when I can get over there.

JR - I told Tutt he must load me some for his visit because he left us high and dry on our get together here in the Southland - Work - his motorcycle - he is going to have to make amends for sure!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:49 pm

Guess you will have to come to the cool pines of N.M. to do some reloading.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:50 pm

Can I consider that an invite???

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:08 am

Old Savage wrote:In the midst of my other topic was a problem that I would like to hear any feedback on.

I found that my Super Blackhawk which is OK but not great on accuracy will shoot very well with on of my standard 44 Special loads. See the target but the Rossi 92 Colt off the bench was terrible with a light 45 Colt load I use - as far as I can measure the front driving band of the 250 gr Keith SWCs and the bore are both .452". I will have to try other bullets - it doesn't seem to get along with this one. I love the rifle though.

That's most likely your problem. The 45 lc rifles tend to have slightly over-size chambers but still within SAAMI specs. If you are obutrating the case to get a good seal you will have inconsistant pressures. Are your cases smutted up. Than would be a clue to lost pressure.
Solution~more power.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:21 am

At the risk of being banned from the forum ( and a certain butt chewing from Joe ) I do not have .45 Colt dies.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:22 am

Nate - the cases were surprisingly clean and this was only 7.1 gr of Green Dot that chronographed 950 fps in another Stainless 20" Rossi. They did not deform either but of course the pressures were low.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:35 am

I had the same problem with my Winchester Trails End and .452 Bullets.
Barrel slugged out .453+/-. Went to .454 bullets and groups shrank dramatically.

jb

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:02 am

mescalero1 wrote:At the risk of being banned from the forum ( and a certain butt chewing from Joe ) I do not have .45 Colt dies.

M1,
No butt chewing this morning. Should you look for a set of .45 Colt dies I'll suggest RCBS, Lyman, or the Lee Deluxe 4 die set.

I have a set of each and I was surprised the Lee set produced as good a product as they do. I don't like that rubber o-ring lock ring, but I don't use the set often enough to spend the money for replacements.

Joe

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:58 am

Thank you for the amnesty.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:17 pm

Old Savage wrote: JR - I told Tutt he must load me some for his visit because he left us high and dry on our get together here in the Southland - Work - his motorcycle - he is going to have to make amends for sure!

I would say he owes

. He has been scarce around as of late. The heavy slugs in the .45colt are the trick for longer range steel target shooting.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:24 pm

He is readying a report on his trip on the cycle.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:28 pm

Cool looking forward to it.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:46 am

Old Savage wrote:Nate - the cases were surprisingly clean and this was only 7.1 gr of Green Dot that chronographed 950 fps in another Stainless 20" Rossi. They did not deform either but of course the pressures were low.

950? That's medium to mild in a pistol. You should see about 1100 from the rifle before it stablizes. I'm betting the bullets aren't sealing and you are getting some blowby. What is the avererage FPS diviation.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:02 am

You know Nate - I don't really know the deviation. We tried a few of each loads in another 20" stainless 92 Rossi to get a idea of the velocity - you idea makes sense to me. I was wondering if there was any general problem with the 45s as there once was with the 44 Mags. Or, if anything worked as a standard load in these rifles.

BTW is Rossi still making them?

timkelley · Post by **timkelley** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:50 pm

My Rossi 92 likes .454 boolits.
Lee 45 Colt Carbide Dies are super.
I shoot a Lee 452-255 over 8gr of Universal for a fun load or same boolit over 23.5gr of H110 if I want to hurt my shoulder a bit.
I will tell anyone who asks "My LSI 92 is more fun than a guy should be allowed to have".

Get the CD from Steve's Guns, You can make that 92 so smoooooooth.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:52 pm

Like I said in another thread OS, I ain't tried the boy's .45 Colt Rossi on paper... I just took some of my loads for my 1873 and SAAs fired outta the barn into a tree, say, oh, roundabout, 45-50 yards away... Picked a knot, and knocked it out... well put a few holes in it... during any outings at CAS matches, it seems to ring steel when I keep the front sight on the target. For some reason, if I get to moving too fast, it misses... ain't sure what causes that... but I have noticed the front sight slippin' off the target on those ocassions.

I was led to believe these were magic guns, and were garrontreed to hit, and to hit HARD! I have some 250grain JHPs loaded, but really haven't even had those on paper. Guess I should before goin' hog huntin', eh?

My cas load is a 225gr. TC bullet cast in an RCBS 45-225-CAV mold, generally of a 6:1 WW:Linotype mix, pushed by 6 grains of RedDot. The only time I've chronographed anything close to that was with CRS, and that day the load was 5.5 grains of Clays, behind the same bullet using WLP primers. All my .45 Colt bullets are sized to .452; the ave. was 845fps, ES of 33.04 and an SD of 13.03. Interestingly, here's the detail: (1) 840.0, (2) 835.6, (3) 844.8, (4) 868.7, (5) 840.1. But for that 4th shoot, the Ave would have 840.125fps, ES of 9.2 and an SD of 3.187.

Since those are the ONLY shots of that load, out of that rifle, that have made the trip over a chronograph, I'm leery of relying on that data... but the load is encouraging... Outta THAT rifle. One of these days I'm going to buy a chrony and start collecting data... to what end, I ain't sure... I'll still be a terrible shot, with bad eyes!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:50 pm

Old Savage wrote:You know Nate - I don't really know the deviation. We tried a few of each loads in another 20" stainless 92 Rossi to get a idea of the velocity - you idea makes sense to me. I was wondering if there was any general problem with the 45s as there once was with the 44 Mags. Or, if anything worked as a standard load in these rifles.

BTW is Rossi still making them?

Rossi has made bad barrels for the 45lc guns but those were just random SNAFU's. Where the 44mag was a design flaw. you might try a .454 to see if the pressure will come up and stabilize better. might even put you in that 1100 FPS range.

The Rossi 92's are still available but will be imported by Taurus USA of Florida and distributed by
Rossi USA

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:42 am

Went to the range with some reloads that measure .454 over 8.0 gr of Unique. Barrel had been cleaned and it was windy day, 110 in the shade at the range. But as you can see the group shrunk dramatically. It appears we have the answer. Cowboytutt is bringing some hot 45 Colt loads this weekend. 360 gr bullet over 18 gr of H110 .452 but they may obturate to make a difference. Bottom loads are the new ones.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:55 am

OS,

I thought the larger bullet and would help. But those two groups are like night and day.
So just proves the point, Unique and .454" bullets is the way to go.

Well, the last part is JMHO.

Glad it's shooting better. Big Bubba over on The Ruger Forum chrono'd 8.0grs Unique with a 250gr Remington .455" factory bullet and his tests showed that this load was almost a perfect duplication of the standard traditional factory load. Here is his results:

Big Bubba wrote: On The Ruger Forum 6-20-09

Just thought this might be of interest. I chronographed my .45 Colt SS New Vaqueros, a 7 1/2" and a 4 5/8" with Remington factory 250gr. Lead RN loads and my reload with the same bullet and 8 gr./ Unigue., CCI large pistol primers and Remington brass.

Vaquero 7 1/5"
Remington 250gr. RN Factory 855 fps. average
Rem. 250gr. RN 8gr./Unigue 864 fp.s average

Vaquero 4 5/8"
Remington 250gr. RN Factory 821 fps. average
Rem. 250gr. RN 8gr./Unigue 829 fps. average

Pact Chronograph
Distance 10 feet
72 degrees

These are the loads I use in my New Vaqueros for all use. I save the +P .45 Colt loads for my Blackhawk.

It's been years since I shot that load, I'm gonna load me up some for IJ.

Joe

44magHunter · Post by **44magHunter** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:20 pm

Well I'm no expert, but I think you may need to try a different bullet. Mabey try something heavier.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:23 pm

Thanks Joe I appreciate the info and that is about what I found in the manuals. Probably about 1100 in the rifle, maybe a bit more. If you look at the group I expect the high one was the fouling shot and I concentrated more as I went along - didn't have my spotting scope with me so I am not sure. I think the 3 on the left may be the last three.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:58 pm

OS, that's a drastic difference between the .452 and the .454's. Looks like you've found the right size bullet for that Rossi. Now, it's the search for the right powder load. Heck, with that last group you may not need to do that either. I don't recall your distance.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:47 pm

It was only 50 yds but that is good enough for what I want this for but I am confident I can get and accurate as in 1 1/2" or better at 50 yds with what I see. I believe this one is that with careful shooting - I wasn't particularly honed in that day and I could see it in the 6X on the 22 Mag. while I was shooting.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:57 pm

OS I have been rereading this post and after reaing NKJ's last post about fps,es,and sd I got out my notebook. I found the notes from testing a load last year. .45 Colt 20 inch Rossi Hartford carbine, 8.0 grains of Unique with a 255 grain hard cast bullet. Average 1069 fps, 43.4 ES,and 16.8 SD. The load seemed to be accurate but Idid not notice the cases as being dirty from blowby.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:09 pm

I don't like Keith style bullets in leverguns from my days with .44 Mag Winchester 94 and Marlin 1894 back in the early '70s. So, I never tried any in my Rossi .45 Colt carbine. However, the Cast Performance LBT style bullets worked a treat. So do jacketed bullets. I am also pushing all those bullets at more than 1200 fps from the carbine with the 240 gr. Hornady XTP-MAG going nearly 1800 fps. These group into 2" or so at 100 yards. I didn't try the factory loads at 100 but did at 50 and they were comparable so far as grouping although velocities didn't exceed 1150 fps even from the carbine.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:37 pm

OK Hobie that is what I'm talkin about. We'll be testing Tutt's loads this weekend. Think this might be the first time we have had an intersect on guns here. Appreciate the input an information. I had a 94 Win 45 Colt years ago and it shot the 225 Silvertips the best of what I tried.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:10 am

Well Tutt has come and gone here but he did bring some loads for the 45 Colt consisting of a Mt Baldy cast 360 gr Keith bullet with gas check over 18.5 gr of H 110. Velocity was 1345 - 1365 fps., center target. These as you see completely solve the accuracy issue, powerful too. Front driving band measures .453". He also brought some LeverEvolution rds. Looking at this group you will see that the first three rds were 5' triangle with a 1 inch group in the center of that for rds. 4, 5, and 6. Velocity ranged from 1109 to 1135 fps. This was shot after the lead and I am assuming that the jacketed bullet after three had conditioned the barrel in some way from shooting the lead. I also chronographed the 8.0 gr of Unique load from prior shooting getting approximately 1125 fps. These loads were all shot off the bench at 50 yds. Temp was about 100 degrees.

Thanks to Cowboytutt here for riding to the rescue - about 400 miles. He leaves me with a couple of boxes of this ammo. Guess he will have to be forgiven for missing the So Cal shoot in the spring that he set up.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:01 am

OS, that's looking good. The EMF that I had was accurate, but I never tried light loads in it on paper. It really liked the 300gr Cast Performance bullet push hard.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:24 am

My Ruger SBH seems to favor pretty hot .44 Magnum loads. Not a bunch of fun to shoot, but they were darn near the most accurate loads I would put through the ol' girl. Have you tried the opposite end of the spectrum?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:30 am

OS,

You mention measuring the front driving band... I'm curious as to why. IMO, for cast bullets slated for rifle use I'm far more interested in the base diameter. If I'm wrong maybe one of you guys that know what they'redoin' will set me straiight; but, my thinkin' is, knowin' the base diameter will give a better idea on how well it will seal against gas-cutting. Is there something I'm missing?

Mind ya, my .45Colt rifles arre mainly for low-speed, short-range cas work, but my .30-30 is for more serious, long-range work. And will no t the theory to application be the same?

Don't mean to side-track the topic, but the question just popped in here!

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:47 am

Griff - I agree with you; the reason I mention the front driving band is that is the only thing I can measure. I only have loaded rounds. The original loads I tried that shot so poorly were what I had left over from when I did a lot of pistol loading in the late 80s but they shoot great in my three screw. They measured .452 on the front band. But, that loader - Penny's Hard Cast and Machine, the best cast bullets that I have bought, is out of business and I don't have any left and don't know the diameter. The loads I have now from Tutt he loaded in Ukiah. I looked on Mt Baldy's site and they list the bullet at .453. The 8.0 Unique loads were done by a friend who always uses 454 bullets. So it appears I need at least .453 in cast.

These last loads make this gun really valuable to me. I am now very pleased with it.