OT generator for when the power goes out

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:07 am

Sort of a wandering train of thought, don't want to limit discussion too much by naming the thread "what kind" or "Do you use"...

We've talked about having one for years, never got around to the necessary analysis of "what would you run on it and how much power do you need" kinds of things.

We picked up an old Ag-Tronic (seems they were bought by Coleman and became Powermate at some point) at an estate sale this weekend. It's a model 544000 with an 8HP Briggs & Stratton. None of the ones similar to it that I've been able to find online are in a rack similar to this one, I have a suspicion the previous owner made this rack.

Anyway it's old and we aren't even going to try to start it until we've found a proper air filter replacement and done the oil change and probably a new spark plug. I'll post some pictures if the thread goes anywhere that somebody might care.

Let's discuss the broad subject though. Do you use one? What kind? What do you think of it?

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:23 am

I have 3, all are different, depending on thier intended usage.
The biggest, an old 4 cylinder with a Wisconsin engine is the most powerful, uses the most fuel, I really think it will run for the rest of my life.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:42 am

I rented a Honda 2000 last year and ran a window air conditioner in my tent at a four day outdoor concert. I used less than a gallon of gas.

I bought one.

It will run my table saw, skill saw, compound miter saw, router, freezer, fridge........not at the same time of course.

It was expensive per watt, but it is super quiet, sips gas (15 hrs/gal) and has an inverter that won't trash sensitive electronics.

I highly recommend it.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:33 pm

If you want to use it as backup power for your home you need to have the power company lay out what they will require for safety measures before you can hook it up. If that one is a 4400 watt unit, it will run a forced air system (gas or oil only), the refer, TV, microwave and a few lights at the same time.
We lived where there were outages in the winter. I converted mine to LP gas, what we heated with. This meant there was never any old gasoline in the tank. System worked great.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:52 pm

The local plumber is big on LP. I was going to get him to convert the Wisconsin, it is already hooked to the house.

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:37 pm

This one is 4000 watts.

I still have no idea how much power I need. We have a central air/furnace but we have kerosene for heat so the summer A/C would be all of that I'd be interested in running. I have this picture in my head that it is wired into the building wiring (detached brick home) and not just a "plug" I could put on an extension cord... but maybe I'm wrong about that. Would the outside unit fan have a separate power supply?

I know the fridge (a large side by side we bought ...10 years ago, wow) has a plug that way. This thing has a pair of 120v and a pair of 240v outlets. We don't have a separate freezer (but we want one).

I guess I'd want to run the fridge most of the time, alternated with A/C either the central unit or some portable or window unit, so we can stand the temps is about all we'd use it for. And perhaps the water heater (electric) part of the time. I can easily see never having to run any of them simultaneously.

I did not get a manual and I'm not having any luck finding one, and I don't have any experience to draw on. Any suggestions other than what I mentioned above before we 'fire it up'? I'm not at home to look up the engine model, but the generator model is that 544000 I mentioned which seems to have followed to some Colemans too. At least the ones I found on Ebay and such (completed listings) look the same but that doesn't prove anything I guess. The outlets are right on the back end of the generator and there's no separate 'control panel' or anything. It's a pull-start 8HP horizontal shaft engine from B&S, the front center emblem says "Magnetron" and I guess that's a '80s electronic ignition. The air filter cover is a bowl-shaped maybe 5 or 6" diameter, 4 or 5 inches high. It will need both the paper cartridge and the outer 'pre-filter' as they've deteriorated. The filter cover gives oil viscosity and service schedules. I need to figure out what to buy to replace that filter. I'll have to make a fuel line from the tank, which just sits on top of the home-made (I think) rack it's mounted in. Do these things have an oil filter, or internal fuel filter? I wouldn't think cleaning up the carburetor should be much worse than the Honda V-twin carbs I've done, if I can get a gasket set.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:44 pm

My big unit is wired to the house, you have to flip the switch when you switch from grid to generator, and then back again when you return to the grid.
It is possible to install a remote filter on those smaller units such as yours and I would recommend doing it.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:46 pm

We have a 5,500 watt contractors generator.
We also have some oil lamps, and a wood stove.
If we lost power for an extended period, there's no doubt the food in the fridge would spoil in a day or so, which is why we have dry and canned goods set aside.
I would only run the generator intermittently to pressurize the well tank, run a computer for info, charge phones, run a tool, hopefully all around the same time to cut down on run-time. The generators gas tank holds about 6 or 7 hours total run time, so I'll run it a little at a time.
Some day I'll build a house "off the grid" and I won't worry anymore.

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:49 pm

Well, wiring it to the house wiring and needing a transfer switch is something I may do some day, for now I'm just planning (if the thing even works) on running extension cords to a few choice appliances as needed, our power doesn't go out that often or stay off for that long, usually. If we end up liking it that much we may do as you say, but in that case we probably would just go ahead and buy a recent manufacture generator. This is more an experiment for the time being.
When you say "remote filter" I take it you mean fuel filter, I do intend to put an extra inline fuel filter in the line but I was wondering if there's replaceable parts I need to worry about inside for oil or fuel.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:54 pm

Often thought about this subject. Interested in seeing other's experiences on what works and what doesn't.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:58 pm

I have an Onan 20kW in place at my house. I have it feeding a 100amp sub-panel that runs one A/C unit, some lights, fish tank, various refrigerators, etc.

It's got a solid 2.5Liter inline 4 Ford engine in it. Mine runs on propane and I have it hooked to a 250 gallon tank. I much prefer a propane setup as the fuel is in a sealed tank and is not subject to moisture contamination, etc.

I have it hooked to a automatic transfer switch that also exercises it for 7 minutes every weekend. When power goes out, it takes about 12 seconds to come up to speed and be switched into the circuit to feed the loads.

I had the subpanel put in when I built my house as I knew I'd want to get a generator eventually. In 2004, my power went out for days at a time on three occassions. So I ordered this thing off of the internet after doing a lot of research. When it came in, I poured a pad for it around back and lowered it into place. Then I wired it, got a starting battery for it, and had one of the local gas companies come over and bury a tank full of propane for it and hook it up.

Since doing all of this, my power has been out once in the last 5 years for a few minutes at most. That's just the way it goes I guess. If I didn't have it, my power would probably be out more frequently.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:58 pm

No, I meant a remote, readily changeable oil filter.
I am always amazed at people who run thier small engines a lot and never give a care to the oil in them, at best the conscientous check the oil and " top it off " if it is a little low.
Generators run for hours continuously and need and deserve the care of any " working " internal combustion engine.
I have seen many small engines ruined by neglect, and the middle of a crisis is not when you want to find out your maintenece plan was less than desirable.

dave in maine · Post by **dave in maine** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:05 pm

the main thing you must do is shut off the main power switch failure to do that may electrocute some poor soul working on the line.in my state it's against the law to run a gen.without a seperate switch punishable by a 10 k fine according to the electrician that removed over 500 from my savings acct.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:19 pm

I have a B&S 5500 watt with 8500 starting watts. Electric motors all have a surge to them when they start up. You need to allow for that too.

It's kind of like Green Acres, you have to be careful not to over stress the generator. I saw an installation of a China Diesel gen set one time that was made for running the whole house. they ran the exhaust into a 55 gal drum that they had buried in the ground. They say all you could hear was a low frequency hum as the motor ran.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:20 pm

mescalero1 wrote:No, I meant a remote, readily changeable oil filter.
I am always amazed at people who run thier small engines a lot and never give a care to the oil in them, at best the conscientous check the oil and " top it off " if it is a little low.
Generators run for hours continuously and need and deserve the care of any " working " internal combustion engine.
I have seen many small engines ruined by neglect, and the middle of a crisis is not when you want to find out your maintenece plan was less than desirable.

I know what you mean. Here's an example of a small engine that get's treated like royalty. I had to use it two weekends ago to raise a Jon boat from the bottom of my lake. It's a Brownie Hookah unit for underwater diving.

2009 06 13_0533.jpg

When you're down on the bottom ... you definitely don't need your small 4-stroke engine going out.

People in Florida have some strange accessories don't they. Took an hour of walking the bottom to finally find the boat and the engine never missed a beat. About every 10 hours of run time it gets a full synthetic oil change.

2009 06 13_0536.jpg

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:15 pm

I think we should listen to rimfire

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:37 pm

Sorry, my brain wandered off topic when relating to Mescalero1's "abuse of small motors" item.

I know many of you live in climates where A/C is not something that would occur to you to put on a generator, but my wife (living here in Florida) would strongly disagree. So I needed a unit with enough rotating mass (and hence, starting power) to kick on a 3-1/2 ton A/C unit. So I ended up with a larger unit.

There are air cooled units down near 11kW that would have also done the trick, but this one has attributes that I felt would allow it to last for decades. For exmaple, it's got a 4-pole gen-head instead of a 2-pole so it runs an a more leisurely 1800rpm instead of 3600rpm for 2-pole units.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:05 pm

Idahoser, You can get a 220 male plug on both ends of a line and plug into any 220 rec you have, turn off the main power switch from the grid then then it will backcharge your whole place and you will have 220 and 110 just remember to only draw 4000 V which means you have to figure out what your appliances draw and not go over that load only have on what you need. Ovens draw alot of V so watch that close. danny

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:25 pm

I've had two since the big Ice Strom of '98. (11 days with NO power and temps as low as -20 F will
convince ya....

)

Anyway, one was a Sears 5000w with a Tecumseh L-head. Worked fine, but is LOUD. I sold
it to my neighbor - let him annoy HIS wife!

I kept the 3500 Watt Honda. I back feed 230V from my garage. I can run two refrigerators,
the well pump, the furnace, the pellet stove, and a couple of lights. One has to be careful
not to start all of the motors at the same time. AC motors take 2 or 3 times the wattage to
start as they do to run. I just backfeed mine from the garage after turning off the main breaker.
Then I start one appliance at a time. It's also helpful to turn the pump and furnace off when
they're not being used. The stove draws entirely too much current, so we cook on the grill
outside. Note that a coffeemaker draws somehting like 1500 Watts, so keep this in mind as well.
(You'll be performing a de facto enrgy audit when you get your rig up and running!)
This arrangement works pretty well for us.

Code does specify a cutout switch. Turning off the main breaker cuts off the house to the
grid, and so doesn't endanger linemen. The cutout switch provides a complete physical
disconnection from the grid, and is specified so that in the rare eventuality that the main
breaker is defective, the grid will not be energized. (Also provides that disconnection in the
event that one forgets to turn off the main breaker!!)

The cutout switch has one disadvantage (other than cost!). Generally they are such that they
will NOT provide power to the enitre box - you'll have to pick your circuits to run when the switch
is installed. Running without the cutout, I just turn off those circuits I do not wish to use when
I kill the main breaker.

Of course, you can buy a generator that will power your whole neighborhood and wire it to run
your whole house, too.

Parts for your old motor? Should be no problem. Find the motor number somewhere on the unit and
go to any good lawnmower/small engine shop. Old Briggs and Tecumseh engines were running somewhere
before the beginning of time, and if the exact filter is not available, there will be something that
works. Oil filter? Probably not. Just change it frequently. I'd change it, get it running, change it again
after an hour or so and call it good.

Naturally, all of the above is my 2 cents worth. Your mileage may vary. Don't electrocute yourself,
your neighbors, or your local linemen! Hope some of this helps.

-Stretch

bsaride · Post by **bsaride** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:57 pm

In the back of me head I've been considering a propane generator.
Haven't done any research yet. Anyone have a clue where to look
or just convert myself?

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:21 pm

Have a 6KW 220/110 VAC generator that lives in the pump house. I hate dipping water for the commodes. The electrical for the submerged pump terminates topside in a 220 VAC clothes dryer type plug. Mounted on the pump house wall are two 220VAC outlets. One is connected to the 220 from PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric, ie, Kalifornia ConEd) that originally went to the well. The other 220 outlet has a short run to the 220VAC output of the generator. When the power goes out, crank up the generator, let it get up to temperature, unplug the well from the PG&E outlet and plug it into generator outlet. Absolutely no way of feeding power back to some poor lineman. Added benefit: if the power should go out in the middle of the night without us knowing it and the well freezes up due to it's heat lamp going out, the heat from the running generator will get things thawed out within a few minutes. Watch out for the CO buildup!

Have some buried ROMEX carrying 110 up to the house from the generator. I put in a separate circuit in the house totally isolated from PG&E. Each room in the house has a "tulip" type wall mounted light fixture with a Compact Florescent and AC outlet. This circuit terminates in an AC plug that is plugged into an AC outlet on the house power in the garage. During power outage, this separate circuit is plugged into the AC outlet that the ROMEX cable (from the generator) terminates into in the garage.

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:46 pm

Here in Florida a few years back we got hit with two or so hurricanes back to back, along with spin off tornados. No power for a couple of weeks. I don't use a generator and managed to get along. Some friends around the area were using smaller generators, good and bad. Biggest problem was most would not use proper extension cords to run power to their appliances. Ruined a lot of window A/C's, refridgerators and so on. Also ruined some generators by not proper maintenance etc. If a person or family feels they have the need, get some professional help, get the right units for the job. Have professionals install heavy enough wiring to run power where they want it. It can be expensive if you don't or if you do, but if done right it can be worth the bother and expense. My limited experience was in the military usually with 5KW, 10KW, 50 KW and bigger. When things were done right they were priceless machines, when neglected or abused they were dangerous and of little reliability. It pays to do it right. Just my take on getting generators. All the best and have a good weekend.

MikeS. · Post by **MikeS.** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:00 am

Interesting thread. I have a 5.5kw unit I bought several years ago and have never used. I need to fire it up and run it some soon. Maybe today. We rarely lose power here, like 3 times in 11 years. Then for only a couple hours.

The wife is on an O2 concentrator so I will have to power it. Plus will want to power the frig and freezer. A couple lights and a fan.

I really have to quit buying gun stuff for awhile and put that cash into some more emergency preps.

Post by **David** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:52 am

BigSky56 wrote:Idahoser, You can get a 220 male plug on both ends of a line and plug into any 220 rec you have, turn off the main power switch from the grid then then it will backcharge your whole place and you will have 220 and 110 just remember to only draw 4000 V which means you have to figure out what your appliances draw and not go over that load only have on what you need. Ovens draw alot of V so watch that close. danny

I do this and so do a lot of m friends, they don't recommend this because unfortunately a good portion of the public are morons (have to be careful not to get moved to politics) and forget to switch the main and when the power returns bad things happens but if your not an idiot it's completely safe and saves a LOT on money on relays or silly switch bars.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:53 am

I have a Honda EX3500, owned it for 17 years now and have used it in four power outages on gasoline and one outage on natural gas. It is electric start, and has 230/115 outlets. Because the 230v outlets don't have a neutral, I just run #12 extensions to the furnace, hot water tank, fridge, freezer, microwave, and some lights. I flip the main breaker off in the service entrance, and the individual branch circuit breakers off for those devices and have male-male adapters made up for the extension cords. I plug the extensions into certain identified outlets in those branches and just plug in what I want to run. I usually switch the freezer and fridge every eight to 12 hours, but the furnace, microwave, and some lights and one TV can run with either the fridge or the freezer.

Our furnace is Natural Gas forced air, and our hot water tank is Natural Gas as well, but the HWT requires 115V power to run the forced vent fan and ignition system.

Fuel consumption runs about 2.5 to three gallons every eight hours. I don't like keeping a lot of gasoline around the house, and for that reason I bought a $200 natural gas adapter kit for the Honda carburetor and run the generator from a long flex hose that's tied into the house NG lines. As long as the NG is there, the generator could run almost forever.

Any electronics (TV, computer) get run through a power-conditioning UPS that "cleans up" the wave form of the power from the generator and makes it more sinusoidal instead of the squared or "flat-topped" sine wave form put out by the Honda.

The 3500W Honda will run 3300W continuously and peak briefly at 4500W for starting motors, compressors, etc. When I've got it all hooked up and running, the Honda is loafing at 1900W-2200W, and that's with the furnace and HWT running, and either the fridge or freezer, some lights, and one of the two Toshiba TVs. Starting the microwave runs the power up to about 3200-3300W if I leave everything running, but I've shut the furnace off while we cook so as to unload the Honda as much as possible.

When we notice the neighbors' lights back on, then we break it all down. Takes about 15-20 mins to get set up, and about 10-15 mins to break it down. Cords are all marked, as are the outlet covers. A seven-year-old could set it up and start it; when my youngest was seven she did so, following the written and color-coded instructions with photos as I watched.

Noah

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:05 am

BigSky56 wrote:Idahoser, You can get a 220 male plug on both ends of a line and plug into any 220 rec you have, turn off the main power switch from the grid then then it will backcharge your whole place and you will have 220 and 110 just remember to only draw 4000 V which means you have to figure out what your appliances draw and not go over that load only have on what you need. Ovens draw alot of V so watch that close. danny

BE CAREFUL HERE!

YOU CAN DO THIS ONLY IF THE GENERATOR'S 220V OUTLETS HAVE A NEUTRAL (The outlet and plugs will have four slots and four prongs).

If your generator's 220V outlets are three prong, DO NOT wire the 220 to your house, because there is no neutral reference and some 110V circuits in your house will be feed with 220V. Lights will be very bright, electronics will fry, and some devices may catch fire.

The three-prong 220V generator outlets have two hot legs (A&B) and a ground. There is no neutral, and theu no neutral reference to "make" two separate 110V circuits. You CANNOT rely on the ground to be the neutral reference.

It is ALWAYS best to get a professional electrictian involved when purchasing a backup generator and tying it into your house. You don't want your investment(s) going upin flames during a power outage or other emergency.

Noah

morgan in nm · Post by **morgan in nm** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:23 am

I guess I must be a redneck as I use a Miller gasolene welder/gen when I need a generator. It works great and powers 5kw.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:58 am

We have a 50A (continuous) rated generator. I also WIRED THE HOUSE with a transfer switch that not only prevents backfeed safety issues, eleminates jury rigged lead cords, etc, but allows me to select which circuits get juice and which do not, so I don't overload the generator. It has meters on it to allow load to be seen... When I wired the transfer switch, I just wired up everything EXCEPT the electric water heater and range. They are both too heavy a draw for the SWITCH to handle, and would tax the generator badly. My main NEED would be to keep the fridge and especially the freezer cold and the oil furnace working. But with 50 amps we can run lights, tv, etc. Cooking would be microwave and/or a single-burner hotplate.

The SWITCH is more important than the genset. BUT when selecting a generator I did select for electric start with an automatic battery maintainer. I just went out there and popped the genset over (it's been 6 mos since it ran), and it started in about 5 seconds.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:04 am

Noah Zark wrote:
BigSky56 wrote:Idahoser, You can get a 220 male plug on both ends of a line and plug into any 220 rec you have, turn off the main power switch from the grid then then it will backcharge your whole place and you will have 220 and 110 just remember to only draw 4000 V which means you have to figure out what your appliances draw and not go over that load only have on what you need. Ovens draw alot of V so watch that close. danny
BE CAREFUL HERE!

YOU CAN DO THIS ONLY IF THE GENERATOR'S 220V OUTLETS HAVE A NEUTRAL (The outlet and plugs will have four slots and four prongs).

If your generator's 220V outlets are three prong, DO NOT wire the 220 to your house, because there is no neutral reference and some 110V circuits in your house will be feed with 220V. Lights will be very bright, electronics will fry, and some devices may catch fire.

The three-prong 220V generator outlets have two hot legs (A&B) and a ground. There is no neutral, and theu no neutral reference to "make" two separate 110V circuits. You CANNOT rely on the ground to be the neutral reference.

It is ALWAYS best to get a professional electrictian involved when purchasing a backup generator and tying it into your house. You don't want your investment(s) going upin flames during a power outage or other emergency.

Noah

OR buy a transfer switch KIT at Lowes, which includes a big poster that says "get professional installation..." and also includes a BOOK and a DVD with complete how-to instructions. Follow em faithfully and it is NOT difficult. Then ya need a REAL, 4-wire 220 cord and receptacle for the house (gonna set ya back about 200 bucks for the outlet and 25' of cord). My whole setup, generator, transfer switch, cord and receptacle, ran me about 1100 bucks.

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:02 am

Or go back to where I started and experiment with this thing to LEARN what I'm doing, not powering house circuits at all until I DO know what I'm doing.

I did finally find the model number from the engine so now I can order the carb rebuild kit and air filter and such.
190432-5130-03785020812

I guess you're supposed to be able to tell when it was actually made from that?

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:46 am

Why, yes you can tell a lot about a B&S engine from that number. There's more info in it that I haven't found the codes to read, but here's what I DID learn:

MODEL
19 - cubic inches displacement
0 - some mysterious "basic design" code
4 - Horizontal Shaft, Vacu-Jet Carburetor, Mechanical Governor
3 - Ball Bearing, Flange Mounting, Splash Lube
2 - Rewind Starter

Then the "TYPE" appears to be 5130-037 and identifies (but I can't decipher) the engine mechanical parts, color of paint, decals, governed speed and Original Equipment Manufacturer.

Then comes
CODE
85 - year
02 - month
08 - day
12 - ASSEMBLY LINE AND MANUFACTURING PLANT although I haven't found a reference for these either.

Now, my engine has "Magnetron" on the front so when I found that that system was introduced in 1981, and then when I found out that 1986 is when Ag-Tronic was bought by Coleman, it removed the lingering doubts about whether I was reading it right. I would have guessed it was older, but this seems pretty plain. I didn't find any examples of the "Type" including the extra digit (most seem to be in the format 5130-03) but I couldn't figure out any other way for the date to make sense, the seven wasn't part of that. 78 would have made a reasonable year but the rest wouldn't work.

So anyway...
In a Magnetron engine, is there a shutoff switch? I've found a black wire with a lug that should be attached under a screw, just hanging loose. I can't find a switch to shut it off (not an urgent problem since I won't be trying to start it for a bit). I guess you could short from the top of the spark plug to the head with a screwdriver, right?

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:55 am

Idahoser wrote:I guess you could short from the top of the spark plug to the head with a screwdriver, right?

Correct.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:49 pm

Idahoser wrote:
So anyway...
In a Magnetron engine, is there a shutoff switch? I've found a black wire with a lug that should be attached under a screw, just hanging loose.

B&S engines are typically stopped with a grounding wire. The grounding wire "shorts" the magneto to ground, eliminating the spark at the spark plug tip. My guess is that if you ground that black wire with the engine running, the engine will stop.

So you can add your own switch in the circuit, but I would recommend that you do NOT use a "momentary contact" switch for a "kill" switch. The magneto would be grounded as long as you hold the button, but releasing the button will break the ground and if you spin the crankshaft the engine may start. Use a single-pole, single-throw (SPST) switch that is "always made" in the "ON" position.

Noah

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:12 pm

I like that plan!

donw · Post by **donw** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:09 pm

i have the sears 10k, 2 cylinder with elect start.

it will run the household, well motor, a/c, dryer, arc welder and microwave all at the same time.

the 10 gal tank is enough to keep it going "for a while"...

we were without power for 3 days once due to a huge fire here in so cal...no problem now.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:00 pm

BigSky56 wrote:Idahoser, You can get a 220 male plug on both ends of a line and plug into any 220 rec you have, turn off the main power switch from the grid then then it will backcharge your whole place and you will have 220 and 110 just remember to only draw 4000 V which means you have to figure out what your appliances draw and not go over that load only have on what you need. Ovens draw alot of V so watch that close. danny

That's how people get killed! Either they plug it in and forget to turn the main off, or they unplug it and get their hands on a live male cord end! I would highly disagree with this sort of jerry rigged setup, and beyond that it's not only dangerous, but totally illegal!

I've installed generators for the last 30+ years, and the methods can vary as much as the generators, and homes (or businesses) they go in to. For a small residence a 4000 w. generator is a good choice, but only if your source of heat is not electric. It will easily handle the microwave for heating food, a few lights, and TV, and still run the fan on your gas or oil furnace. If you have a fridge and freezer it will keep those cold as well, but unplug them before using the microwave, as it might trip the breaker on the generator if the fridge or freezer compressor is cycling. If you are on a well, then shut everything down except lights to run your well pump, then shut the pump off and turn the rest back on.
The best setup for these small generators is also the least expensive, and simplest. A Gentran Panel, or similar panel will isolate circuits you want to use during an outtage, and keep everything else on without backfeeding anything. Additionally it will automatically allow you to know when the power is restored, since you don't shut off normal cucuits, so when it comes back you'll see things come on and know it.
The Gentran panel is easily mounted next to your normal breaker panel, and comes with leads in red and black to let you know which go to the breakers and which go to the wires for load. Simply pick the circuits you want to use and shut the breaker off, land the correct numbered red wire to the breaker, then the black wire is wire nutted together with the wire you lifted off the breaker.
When the power gopes out you simply plug your generator into the Gentran Panel, start it up, and move the switches from "Normal" to "off", and to "Genrator". These panels only run around $200, and can be installed in about an hour or less.
I don't have any monetary interest in Gentran in particular, or any brand, but they seem to be reasonable and well made:
http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse. ... ry=MTS6-10

Vall

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:05 pm

Idahoser wrote: I guess you could short from the top of the spark plug to the head with a screwdriver, right?

Remember, you'll be using this generator most likely when the weather is horrible. Power rarely goes out in nice weather. Do you really want to be standing in the rain or snow and shorting a screwdriver to the spark plug? Could be a painful experience!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:38 pm

marlinman93 wrote:... For a small residence a 4000 w. generator is a good choice, but only if your source of heat is not electric...

This is an excellent point. You may not even know that you have electric heat. For example, many homes in Florida use heat pumps to both cool and heat the home at different times of the year. Heat pumps will typically have emergency strip heaters inside the air handler for those times when it gets too cold outside for the heat pump to be able to draw enough heat from the air to heat the house ... probably the mid-30's and lower. When it gets down to these temps, and granted it doesn't happen often in Florida, the electric heaters will kick in. These heaters are anywhere from 3kW to 10kW or more. If you're powering a heat pump on your generator circuits like I am, you need to make sure you account for this potential load.

It's probably very unlikely that you would be on generator power and it would be cold enough out to cause your emergency strip heaters. Unless you're me ... I live in the world of "if it can happen, it will happen to me". If air handler has breakers specifically wired to the strip heaters on the side of the unit, you can use those to disconnect the heaters when on generator.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:27 pm

We have to have several, because the essentials (well, electric fences, freezers, refrigerators) are in four different buildings.

We're agonizing which area to put a propane tank (NOT near the house, please!) and auto-start one on.

What would be REALLY long-term-cool would be a stand-alone flywheel/generator which could hook to any (i.e. wood-fired) STEAM engine, or other torque source. I've seen such setups at the 'antique' show at our county fairs.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:36 pm

It really doesn't matter if the propane tank is near the house, unless you have enough property to get it half a mile or more away! If you're afraid it will blow, and it did, then you'll need it that far away to be safe. Might as well have it close, so you have less chance of line damage from buried propane lines. A far larger danger than the possiblity of the tank blowing.
Every propane powered generator, or even propane supplied home I've seen, had the tank in close proximity to the home.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:29 pm

So other than money whats the difference in throwing the main feed switch or a transfer switch you have to throw something. keep it simple guys its not brain surgery. Thin ice doesnt need a sign. danny

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:30 pm

The difference? How about doing it so nobody gets hurt? The difference is safety. Throwing a transfer switch disconnects the power company feed before making the generator feed. Isolating the service so that it cannot possibly backfeed the line and kill someone.
Either one is a single action, but one is completely safe, while the other is pretty unsafe.