Insight for a Newbie with a 30-30?

[Dan1894]

Forgive a noob question, but how is "excessive pressure" determined for a lever action? What are the waring signs? I just got a Sears 54 (1894) 18" that is now on its third generation -- I really don't want to blow it. Never reloaded before, but now considering it given the long-run savings and accuracy potential.

Did some reading at reloadersnest, got a lot of help at benchrest.com, and generally doing a lot of googling and reading for the past week or so. Currently looking at getting started with W-748 (hear it measures well), Federal 210, CCI 220 or BR2, and Hornady Flexes, but at least to start I guess it really depends if there's 160grain data, Flex tip or otherwise, in the Hornady reloading manual I ordered. Picked up a few boxes of Winchester, Remington, and Leverevolution for the brass. I assume these rounds aren't too hot for an older gun? Reloading wise, is brass brass, or is one or two preferable over the other(s)?

Made up a batch of Ed's Red, disassembled it as per this disassembly guide for "real" 1894s, and gave it a good cleaning. Looking at some of these accurizing tips as I reassembly the gun. Looking at at least cosmeticizing the barrel band and filing down the tube mag cap's bolt if I can find a replacement to keep the original unmodded at original length. Will probably pick up a peep sight as well. Would like sufficiently good accuracy for the occasional informal 200m competitions in my area.

Also, after putting the receiver back together, I noticed the trigger flops around a bit. Is this normal, or did I somehow goof during reassembly? I don't remember if it did this before I broke the gun down for cleaning. I doesn't "flop" when out of the gun, but the hammer pushes down...the springy thingy for lack of a better word that clicks in on the hammer when assembled and when unassembled pushes against the trigger hence no trigger slop unassembled.

Sorry to ramble. Thanks for the help!

[Tycer]

Welcome!

The floppy trigger is normal. I've used a bit of brass casing as a shim to snug it up.

That is not really an older 1894. It will handle a steady diet of any factory ammo or published loads. Chances are you can't afford enough ammo in your lifetime to harm that gun at all.

Enjoy!

[Cliff]

About the only thing I can add is to be certain to properly trim your fired cases. The 30-30 is known for it's stretching or elongation upon firing. Not a problem, if you are careful when resizing your brass, no need to over do it. Trim to proper length and I would suggest using a proper crimp die, after seating the bullet during reloading. I like the Lee brand Factory Crimp Die for this. Don't need a crushing crimp, just enought to prevent bullet set back in the tubular magazine. Have fun and be safe.

[J Miller]

Dan,

Welcome to the forum.


No need to "fix" anything in the carbine, you haven't even shot it yet. No need to do anything with the trigger, it works just fine and once you get used to it you won't even notice it.

No need for magnum primers with Win 748. It works just fine with standard LR Primers.

Yes there is a need for you to purchase several of the top reloading manuals and read them cover to cover. Hornady, Speer, Lyman, Sierra are just some of those I suggest.

The 30-30 cartridge and the lever guns it's mostly chambered in is a time proven package.
IF you stick to published loads as listed in the major manuals you'll never have a lick of trouble with that Winchester.

34.5 grs of 748 under a 150gr flat or round nose bullet is a proven reliable accurate load. I've used it for over 30 years.

JOe

[O.S.O.K.]

Welcome to the board!

Lets see, warning signs for levers.... a hot load will actually push the bolt back and lever down and you can feel it in your hand - stop - and don't shoot any more of that load. Likewise, a hard extraction after shooting is another sign of too much pressure.

The primers are not very reliable for pressure signs in levers though. They can actually unseat with lower pressure loads and look like the pressure was too much for example. I would say though that a flattened and cratered primer is not a good thing in levers any more than it is with bolt guns. With normal pressure loads they will generally look "unstressed" but may push out of the pocket a bit - no worries.

If you stick with published loads, you should be just fine - the rifle will handle a good bit more pressure than SAMMI spec's for the 30-30 and that gives you a good safety margin - that should be maintained. The 30-30 is not a high velocity number and utilizes bullets that expand at the velocities that the cartridge generates and give very good on-game results.

I like W748 as well and also use standard primers with it.

Hope that helps some.

[shdwlkr]

Don't go and buy a lot of primers until you find the one your rifle likes. I have 3 of them and two like one kind of primer and the other one has its own primer preface. I load 3031 in mine most of the time and never have seen the reason to even get close to the max powder charge but I also shoot a lot of lead instead of jacketed bullets.
As to wearing out a 30-30 one of mine is heading towards a hundred and still works just fine another is heading towards 90 and the third is a kid at 30 years old. two of mine have the longer barrels and one has a 20 inch barrel. they are one fine rifle.

[Modoc ED]

30gr of IMR-3031 under a 170gr Jacketed Soft Point, Winchester LRP.

[Hobie]

Dan,

Welcome to the forum.


No need to "fix" anything in the carbine, you haven't even shot it yet. No need to do anything with the trigger, it works just fine and once you get used to it you won't even notice it.

No need for magnum primers with Win 748. It works just fine with standard LR Primers.

Yes there is a need for you to purchase several of the top reloading manuals and read them cover to cover. Hornady, Speer, Lyman, Sierra are just some of those I suggest.

The 30-30 cartridge and the lever guns it's mostly chambered in is a time proven package.
IF you stick to published loads as listed in the major manuals you'll never have a lick of trouble with that Winchester.

34.5 grs of 748 under a 150gr flat or round nose bullet is a proven reliable accurate load. I've used it for over 30 years.

JOe

AMEN! Fixing what works is trouble, pure and simple. All that gun needs is a good Williams FP receiver sight (FP-94/36) using the original front sight and you'll have a doozy of a hunting rifle.

Joe's load works. Dittos also on the loading manual. Read it and learn. It will be a big help to you when you have to use bullets and/or powders which are make-do.

[Travis Morgan]

I determined that 33.2 gr. with the bullet I was using was too much when I noticed that I could watch the barrel whipping to the side when I fired the 33.3 gr. loadings. (Notice I didn't mention bullet weight or powder? There's a darned good reason!)

[Dan1894]

Thanks for the info and welcome.

I'll be a good boy and not fix what may not be broken. One thing I would like to fix though. The gun can be hard to cycle if the trigger isn't cocked beforehand. No problem at all when the lever spring is not installed as you might imagine. Would polishing up where the lever spring meets the hammer help this? Pic attached. Problem appears to be also present at 2:04 in this youtube vid. Didn't see the problem at all in this vid.

Also, when I noticed a protrusion on one side of the lever (yellow arrow). Not sure if this a problem or a feature. Has caused a wear on the inside of that side of the receiver. The other side (orange) sits flush and has no wear sign. Perhaps this is to keep the lever from just falling down when carrying the rifle one-handed at the receiver?


Travis, just curious, but what bullet where you using? Something heavy I assume as that's a lower grain value that recommended by Joe for W748 with a 150grain? I guess I'm just too much of a noob to catch the darn good reason.

[Cosmoline]

Just clean it, use minimal CLP and wipe that off. Do not lube, oil or anything else. Dry is good for these firearms. Once you've done that see if it doesn't cycle a whole lot smoother. Just take it down and put it back together in the proper 1894 order and all will be well.

My advice, having owned a dozen or so .30-30's, is do not worry. Stick to standard loads with the suggested bullets and you're golden. It's not a cartridge you have to fuss over. I like CCI primers myself but it really doesn't matter. I prefer the IMR powders 3031 and 4064 for this cartridge and FN bullets in the 150 to 170 grain range. It's a great beginner cartridge with no real surprises.

Don't worry about the 1894 either. It's a firearm designed by a genius. The loose tolerances are intentional and allow it to function even when mistreated or exposed to rough conditions.

[Travis Morgan]

Dan,

I think that was with a 150, 170, or 180 grainer. Probably a 180. I didn't provide the powder on the idiot load because someone that thinks they know better will decide they want to see what it does. You wouldn't think so, but I even had someone come into the gunshop I was working at and ask if you can "curve" a bullet, like in the movies. Some people are too stupid to be walking around.

[Dan1894]

Travis, those "some people's" only knowledge of guns come from movies and TV shows (news fits in the TV show category).

Cosmoline, I just did a cleaning with Ed's Red, oiled the gun (probably way too much despite trying to be frugal), and it runs like a top -- without the trigger's non-coil spring. So should I polish where the hammer meets the spring? Perhaps also where the breech bolt meets the hammer? Is this just simply a disadvantage in not using a coil spring in the gun design?

Joe, 34.5 grs of 748 under a 150gr flat or round nose bullet. What kind of accuracy should I hope to achieve? Don't want to head off to the range without knowing what's good and what's not.

Cliff, I read somewhere, I believe a Lyman press manual, that after four case trimmings it's time to discard the case. Roughly how many reloads per trimming should be expected when running at reloading manual max (non +P) and can it be mitigated by slacking off a bit? For example, what would the options be, if any, if new 30-30 brass became prohibitively expensive? I sure some reloaders with guns chambered for hard to buy brass must do something to keep their brass lasting as indefinitely as possible?

[J Miller]

I must respectfully disagree with Cosmoline when he says "Dry is good for these firearms." There are several places that beg for lube and I've seen them badly worn because they never had any.
The carrier screw needs oil, the carrier spring where it contacts the carrier needs a dab of grease.
The lever to bolt pin needs oil. The sides of bolt needs oil. The spot under the hammer where that mainspring rubs needs a dab of grease.
If it is a moving piece that bears against another piece it needs lubed.
I've had way too many of these things to agree they can be run dry. You don't need to float them in lube, but dry ..... no.
Every thing else Cosmoline says I agree with.

The lever link pin you indicated with the orange mark just needs to be centered in the link.
Get an appropriate sized punch and hammer and just drift it which ever way it needs to go.
It's tight and you'll need to be serious about it, but you don't need a 3# hammer.

Joe

[20cows]

Verily, Joe speaks the truth!

[flatnose]

Hi Dan,
Cant really add much to the above comments. All i can say is 150grn jacket round or flat nose bullet, Winchester large rifle primers, and a 8lb keg of win748.
Work up powder to max book load, and if all feels right in the workup with no problems, call it done. The rest of the accuracy comes from you, the type of sights you are using, and maybe a bit of tweaking with the rifle.
Keep us posted.
p.s. a drop of oil is good in the right places.

[Cosmoline]

It depends on what you mean by "dry" and "oiled." I'm talking about cleaning each part, rubbing it with CLP then wiping away excess. This leaves a thin layer on the parts and is more than sufficient between cleanings. When you say "lube" I've seen way too many newbies pour oil into the thing like an engine and slather it with grease. I know a guy who LUBED EACH CARTRIDGE to speed them up--I'm not kidding! I say use CLP and we're talking DROPS here, with no excess. Hand rubbed, then wiped. In the light they'll like slightly wet, but no drips coming off at all.

Also I would avoid any grease at all but if you feel you must use the minimal amount. Grease attracts dirt and turns into an abrasive mess.

Personally I don't polish anything that's functioning properly. This looks like it hasn't been shot much so it's probably just a matter of breaking it in. I would really avoid messing with the mainspring.

[jlchucker]

Dan,

Welcome to the forum.


No need to "fix" anything in the carbine, you haven't even shot it yet. No need to do anything with the trigger, it works just fine and once you get used to it you won't even notice it.

No need for magnum primers with Win 748. It works just fine with standard LR Primers.

Yes there is a need for you to purchase several of the top reloading manuals and read them cover to cover. Hornady, Speer, Lyman, Sierra are just some of those I suggest.

The 30-30 cartridge and the lever guns it's mostly chambered in is a time proven package.
IF you stick to published loads as listed in the major manuals you'll never have a lick of trouble with that Winchester.

34.5 grs of 748 under a 150gr flat or round nose bullet is a proven reliable accurate load. I've used it for over 30 years.

JOe

Great post, Joe. I've never used magnum primers with either Win 748 or Win 760 powders either, but I do use Winchester large rifle primers exclusively. Never had any problem whatsoever. Those manuals you mention are all good, but if I had to use just one, I'd pick the latest version of the Lyman. Lyman doesn't make jacketed bullets so they shouldn't have any favoritism for any jacketed load. They do make bullet molds for a variety of cast bullets, though, and that manual offers data for cast as well as jacketed reloading. Same thing with the Lee book, but the Lee book seems to favor certain brands of powder, depending upon which edition you refer to. My Winchesters like the Remington Corelocts--150 and 170 grain.

There's really no need to hotrod the 30-30 cartridge. Its store-bought version, as well as published handloads, have done the job very well for over a century now. Published handloads not only work well, but are the safest way to go.

[Travis Morgan]

It's tight and you'll need to be serious about it, but you don't need a 3# hammer.

Joe

I though hammers started at 4 pounds!

[Dan1894]

iirc one-handed sledge hammers start at 3lbs. I assume that's what he was referring to. At any rate I have the tools on hand to get the job done.

Personally I don't polish anything that's functioning properly. This looks like it hasn't been shot much so it's probably just a matter of breaking it in. I would really avoid messing with the mainspring.

How can I fix the hesitation then (again, like what was in that linked vid)? Just cycle the gun until my hand goes numb and repeat every day for a week or something?

Any comments on brass life expectancy?

Thanks

[Dan1894]

Put about 40 rounds through it this weekend. Much fun. Only shot it at ~30yrds and not doing any proper accuracy testing until I get a peep sight for it, but it seemed sufficiently accurate when I did my part. A miss was usually due to flinching or not lining up the rear sight. This guy kicks, or at least feels more so than the pump 12ga. shotguns I put rounds through, expect a single shot 12ga. -- not that hurt.

I'm just saving all my brass for now until I get closer to where the reloading equipment will pay for itself. May make an exception if I see a killer deal on ebay or something.

Thanks to all here.

[J Miller]

Put about 40 rounds through it this weekend. Much fun. Only shot it at ~30yrds and not doing any proper accuracy testing until I get a peep sight for it, but it seemed sufficiently accurate when I did my part. A miss was usually due to flinching or not lining up the rear sight. This guy kicks, or at least feels more so than the pump 12ga. shotguns I put rounds through, expect a single shot 12ga. -- not that hurt.

I'm just saving all my brass for now until I get closer to where the reloading equipment will pay for itself. May make an exception if I see a killer deal on ebay or something.

Thanks to all here.

Kicks ............. say what 30-30s ain't got no recoil. Mine don't anyway.

A tip: the Win 94s are fairly light rifles. When you shoot it, regardless of position, always get a good solid grip on it ( not necessarily a death grip though ) and make sure it's snugged up against your shoulder. That way they don't move around and get a head start on your shoulder.
Also make sure you have good ear protection. The 30-30 in some conditions can have a fairly sharp crack to the muzzle report. That will make it feel like it's recoiling more and will contribute to a nice flinch.

Reloading equipment is cheep compared to factory ammo. My suggestion is to purchase a top quality CAST IRON single stage press and set of dies first. Don't go cheap junk then work up. It's easier to learn on quality tools. And if you boo boo one the warranty is much better.


Joe

[Griff]

Joe has tolt ya the gospel. Cosmoline is right about the CLP and miminal lubrication... remember the "guts fall out" of the action everytime it's cycled... it is very prone to getting dirty. The more lube in place, the more it attracts grit and grime. Both of which are not good.

Regular LR primers are all that's needed to fire any of the powders appropriate to a .30-30... but a BR primer won't hurt anything once you start looking for best accuracy. But, IMO, that's not necessary for 99.9% of the shooting most .30-30s are going to encounter. I'll put in a plug for Alliant's Reloder 7 powder. Another goodun is Hodgdon's BL-C(2).

There is a plunger on the back of the link that holds the action closed: (in this upside down shot it is to the right of the yellow arrow, which is pointing at the roll pin that holds it and the spring pushing it toward the rear in place)


In this instance it isn't protruding and doing its job. Which indicates that either the spring behind it is broken or the plunger/spring/hole is gummed up with corrosion or grit. Back to your carbine, as Joe said, the link/lever pin appears to be protubing too far on one side. It need not be flush with the edge of the link, but should be equi-distant on both sides of the link.

[Charles]

Listen up Noobie! Before you load a single round, go buy a quality reloading manual. I would suggest the latest by Lyman. Follow their guidlines and you will never blow up any firearm. They are professionals with the right training and testing equipment.

The Internet is fine and there is much good sound information out there . But, there is also lots of nonsense, uneducated opinion and downright dangerous loads. You as a Noobie, don't have the knowledge to seperate the good from the bad. Do what we all did before there was an Internet...BUY A GOOD RELIABLE LOADING MANUAL!

Welcome to the board and I am your friend. Charles

[Dan1894]

Now that I think about it, I was probably holding it up like a pistol, so only the bottom corner of the buttsock was making contact with my shoulder. Mainly been shooting pistols in recent times. Will have to take a look at my rifle posture. Mine does indeed have a healthy report. Guess it has to do with the shorter barrel length? Noticed the barrel got nice and warm , but then maybe it was also because it was already ~95-100F ambient. Shot only 170gr. Winchester rounds.

I tried to tap the link/lever pin to an equi-distant position, but it just wouldn't budge. May give it another go, but it isn't too much of a problem right now. Just wanted to know for the record. Thanks for the photo and pointing out the plunger bit.

I got this reloading manual from wwpowder.com and a few others similar to it, all from powder manufacturers iirc. I assume this will do the job? It echos the 748/34.5/150gr load recommended here.

[J Miller]

That data booklet, well it's 30+ year old ancestor is where I got that Winchester load.
It's great for data, but the suggestion to purchase the Lyman, Speer, Hornady, Sierra loading manuals is valid. Where the Winchester booklet gives you data, the others give you data, instructions, tips, ballistic information, and more.

And holding a rifle like a pistol is a good way to get bruised.

Joe