Bears Again... Or is it WOLVES...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:05 pm

Over the past weekend, an UNARMED, LONE hiker lost his precious dog to a pack of eight wolves, in the Eagle Creek drainage, just East of the Yellowstone Park 'border....' The guy (25 ) is a part-time Wyo. G&F fisheries biologist, who SHOULD have known better.

The dog, a 60-65 lb lab/border collie cross, was attacked within earshot of the kid's camp. When the boy heard the ruckus, he figured a bear was after the dog, only to find his "beloved companion" surrounded by wolves. Any one of the wolves would have grossly outweighed the dog, and the pack was making concerted effort to rid their neighborhood of the intruding pooch. After the guy yelled at the wolves, they broke off the attack and retreated (?) and the poor dog lived in agony for another hour or so, before expiring. By then it was dark and snowing hard, so the youngster stayed put in his make-shift camp until morning, fearing (and rightly so...) for his safety. When he hiked out in daylight, he left the carcass of the dog at the campsite...

When asked if he would have shot the wolves, had he been armed, he had to say he "wasn't sure..."

You can read ALL about it (all the news that fits, we print...) in the Cody Enterprise codyenterprise.com June 10 edition.

Lots of mistakes on that adventure

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:11 pm

I don't know.....................
If that were Snazzy and I.............
I think it would have been a fight to the death.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:16 pm

I love these guys that think that you can go into the
forest with out some sort of protection.

Not to menton keeping an eye on your dog.

Sad.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:21 pm

Yeah,
And here I am trying to figure if I can shoot Grizz's haevy load in my 629.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:23 pm

Buck, I just read that the park service had to shoot a wolf the middle of may in yellowstone that was attacking people on bikes and motorcycles said it was the first documented attacks in the park. A guy that I worked with was attacked this last hunting season he dumped the wolf and called USF&G and they took his statement now they have charged him because they said wolves dont attack people. danny

Heres a pack that took 3 of my calves 60 yards behind the barn while I was in it roping they finally ate everything but the squeal. sorry about the bad pics I was using a through away camera I keep in my saddlebag. There was 13 in the pack.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:25 pm

BigSky56 wrote:Buck, I just read that the park service had to shoot a wolf the middle of may in yellowstone that was attacking people on bikes and motorcycles said it was the first documented attacks in the park. A guy that I worked with was attacked this last hunting season he dumped the wolf and called USF&G and they took his statement now they have charged him because they said wolves dont attack people. danny

Why, EVERYBODY KNOWS wolves don't attack people...

Only the dead men know different...

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:26 pm

A guy that I worked with was attacked this last hunting season he dumped the wolf and called USF&G

In this day and age, the lesson is, I'm afraid, to keep quiet about such things.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:15 pm

stew71 wrote:
A guy that I worked with was attacked this last hunting season he dumped the wolf and called USF&G
In this day and age, the lesson is, I'm afraid, to keep quiet about such things.

Shoot, shovel, shut up.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:20 pm

BigSky56 wrote:...There was 13 in the pack.

Its scenes like that that quantify the need for high-cap EBRs in the hands of Joe Average/Rancher.

My 92 only holds 12...

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:08 pm

I empathize with the man for losing his dog ---- i dont know how close he was to the dog, or how he feels about such things, but one glance at my avatar will reveal that i am fond of my domestic critters. --- no way i would have left my deceased friend in the woods to enter the food chain if i could help it (one of my dogs is a border collie mix too)

But secondly, i would have been armed and would have attempted to send as many of those wolves to the next life as i could. There would be no wishy washy answers to the press , because likely the press would not learn of this.
But if charged, i would attempt to enlist the help of pet sympathetic organizations to fight

All in all, hindsight is 20/20, and that was a bad camping trip for that young man

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:17 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:When asked if he would have shot the wolves, had he been armed, he had to say he "wasn't sure..."

He wasn't sure?!? That wuss doesn't deserve to be a dog owner!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:38 pm

Like I said, if that was Snazzy & I, it is probable we would have died, but we would have died together , trying.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:40 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:When asked if he would have shot the wolves, had he been armed, he had to say he "wasn't sure..."
He wasn't sure?!? That wuss doesn't deserve to be a dog owner!

Exactly! Since the dog was probably defending him in the first place with out him even knowing. What no good.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:47 pm

Easy guys,
there has been enough intolerance here lately, lets tone down the rhetoric.

winchester1886 · Post by **winchester1886** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:47 pm

I have a good friend that was born and has lived in the the back country of British Columbia for all of his 53 years, he's been a full time trapper since he was a kid, and in his opinion dogs in wolf country only attract wolves, very few dogs will stand a fight with one wolf, and usually they come in packs so a dog has no chance, as to weather wolves attack people in North America from what I can see the jury is still out on that one.
The young fellow was obviously inexperienced and should never taken the dog in there in the first place. Sad story.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:47 pm

Sorry I get grumpy when dogs are involved.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:50 pm

Can't you tell from my post how I feel?
Are you a Jimmy Buffet fan?

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:39 am

A wolf pack, operating together, is the second most intelligent creature on the planet. Last spring we had a spate of these attacks. North of the city one would come out to a dog on the trail, adopt a "play" canine posture and trick the dog off into the woods where the rest of the pack would close in like velociraptors and devour it. Sometimes owners just wake up in the morning to find an empty collar where they put the dog out. They can kill so silent and fast there's not even any barking. They don't seem too interested in killing people thankfully. If they wanted to put us on the menu they could go through a whole lot of hikers before they were caught. They can plan ahead, adjust tactics and learn from observations. Unlike other predators they aren't limited to ingrained strategies. It takes a very experienced trapper or PH to outwit them. They move very fast and know all about our weak spots. And how much good is firearm against an animal smart enough to dodge aim and disable shooting hands? Against a whole pack of them? If they had a mind to they could be dropping us like a bad habit. But I guess we don't taste good

As far as dogs, all the old sourdoughs I've met have kept a distance from their pets. It's best not to get too close because there's so many things that can kill them. Some also seem to feel that way about their kids

Have a bunch, then figure half will make it past 18.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:36 am

+1 Cosmo.

At times nature can be cruel, but there is also a raw beauty, and even a certain justice manifested within that cruelty.

The alligator, one of the oldest and ultimate predators, normally considered the "apex predator", can still fall victim to implemented 'team work' strategy, made possible due to the tight knit social structure and "survival of the pack mentality" bred into the canines.

See the remarkable photograph below courtesy of Nature Magazine.

Note that the Alpha wolf has a muzzle hold on the gator preventing it from breathing, while another wolf has a hold on the tail to keep it from thrashing. The third wolf attacks the soft underbelly of the gator.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:10 am

I roam the mountains alone regularly.

But I never go unarmed.

I've heard of several wolf issues, one where a woman was stalked. Several shots were directed close to them from hunters before they reluctantly left her. They had heard her yelling at them.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:17 am

I grew up in the mountains, I put my pistol on when I put my pants on, I can't imagine going unarmed.
What is with people these days?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:29 am

mescalero1 wrote:I grew up in the mountains, I put my pistol on when I put my pants on, I can't imagine going unarmed. What is with people these days?

Baaaah... Gooberment (Fishy Game/whatever) will protect me...

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:33 am

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:38 am

mescalero1 wrote:I grew up in the mountains, I put my pistol on when I put my pants on, I can't imagine going unarmed.
What is with people these days?

I've been wandering around the Allegheny Mnts. of PA since I could walk.
We don't have wolves or grizz. but we do have black bear, coyote and the
worst are the two legged varmints. I never go far from the cabin with out
being armend especially if I have one of the dogs.

The biggest concern I've had lately is the growing packs of wild dogs.
They stay out of sight but they are there.

jb

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:20 am

Malamute wrote:I roam the mountains alone regularly.

But I never go unarmed.

I've heard of several wolf issues, one where a woman was stalked. Several shots were directed close to them from hunters before they reluctantly left her. They had heard her yelling at them.

Well, we roam the same mountains -- alone -- together. Well-armed, as we should be under the circumstances. Except when I was wrangling dudes & horses, it has been my usual habit to go it alone in the back country. Can't find too many takers for my jaunts into the tall-uncut...

Have had many, many 'encounters' with the fang&claw critters, but very few 'incidents...' In fact, in the twenty years or so we herded dudes & hunters, we NEVER had an 'incident.' The closest we ever came to one was with a cow moose who came into our camp one morning with her calf, and managed to let the little fella wander around by himself while she sniffed the gear pile and the saddle rack. Things got semi-tense for just a moment, until the little guy got back to his mama's side of the world...

Hell hath no fury.......

Those who venture into the back country -- or even just off the road -- without some definitive means of protection are FOOLS, and bear the ultimate resposnsibility for any bad thing that happens to them as a result...

I feel sorry for the dog. Best dog I ever had was a lab/border collie mix.

FWIW, I don't think anybody has got off base or out of line with their rhetoric in this thread. The guy acted the Dunce, and has only begun to pay for his ignorance & stupidity.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:24 am

OK, I am sorry,, just a little gun shy.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:29 am

Old Ironsights wrote:+1 Cosmo.

At times nature can be cruel, but there is also a raw beauty, and even a certain justice manifested within that cruelty.

The alligator, one of the oldest and ultimate predators, normally considered the "apex predator", can still fall victim to implemented 'team work' strategy, made possible due to the tight knit social structure and "survival of the pack mentality" bred into the canines.

See the remarkable photograph below courtesy of Nature Magazine.

Note that the Alpha wolf has a muzzle hold on the gator preventing it from breathing, while another wolf has a hold on the tail to keep it from thrashing. The third wolf attacks the soft underbelly of the gator.

That has got to be the best tongue-in-cheek post of the day !

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:48 am

If you hesitate to say whether or not you would kill something that is killing your "beloved companion", I have to question just how "beloved" your companion was in the first place.

If it were my "beloved companion" and I had the means, I would have killed as many as it took to stop the attack......and maybe one more for good measure.

bogie

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:50 am

Bogie35 wrote:If you hesitate to say whether or not you would kill something that is killing your "beloved companion", I have to question just how "beloved" your companion was in the first place.

If it were my "beloved companion" and I had the means, I would have killed as many as it took to stop the attack......and maybe one more for good measure.

bogie

And then, RELOAD!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:54 am

mescalero1 wrote:Easy guys,
there has been enough intolerance here lately, lets tone down the rhetoric.

Screw that! If you want to just sit there and accept the BS the government is shoving up your butt, fine. If the rest of us want to be outraged about it, we darned well will.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:56 am

Cosmoline wrote:A wolf pack, operating together, is the second most intelligent creature on the planet. Last spring we had a spate of these attacks. North of the city one would come out to a dog on the trail, adopt a "play" canine posture and trick the dog off into the woods where the rest of the pack would close in like velociraptors and devour it. Sometimes owners just wake up in the morning to find an empty collar where they put the dog out.

Coyotes do that too.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:27 pm

So far we've just seen the tip of Big Brother's IceBerg...

The Public 'Information' Meetings held before the wolf re-introduction were just a sham, to mollify the public, and to gauge the strength of the resistance to the move.

some of us are already (and have been for a long time) Mad as Hell, and We're Not Going to Take it Any More...

We just don't have the money or the political clout to fight the bastards.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:53 pm

Travis,
One of the problems that taxpayers have is the gov's continual down pay of problems with predators, every FS map has a side bar that says you dont need a firearm to enjoy the NF just carry pepper spray. Stock producers are not allowed to kill a stock killer if its falls under the ESA I can shoot a rustler but not grizz or a wolf (they were delisted in may but the suits have been filed to relist)and just try and get the proof that either killed your stock,they eat the evidence,the horse apples that you will be compensated is just that. I know this from experience with Joe Fontaine (US F&G wolf program) and defenders of wildlife dipsticks. The gov makes outlaws out of hard working people because of bad laws. danny

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:08 pm

The gov makes outlaws out of hard working people because of bad laws. danny

We dont teach this in school anymore... but a jury trial is the acid test of a laws validity. A good jury should not convict over a bad or mis-applied law. Judges and lawyers go out of their ways these days to not inform a jury of it's right to JUDGE the accused.

Too bad we dont have many folks that would make good jurors anymore... I'd be afraid to tried by my peers in many localities for shooting a wolf (2 or 4 legged).

Michigan doesnt have any wolves or cougers either...

DNR types may be almost as smart as the folks they hire over at child services.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:03 pm

Hillbilly, a few years back a young man dumped a elk near Rainbow lake in the Yaak broke it down left it overnight returned with 3 other guys to pack it out a grizz forted up on it even though the guys backed off, alot of alder , the bear attacked the kid shot it in SD a jury found that it was SD mad about the jury the US F&G s cited him for a ESA killing and the kid refused to pay the feds put a lien on his property. Even when you do the right thing some bureaucrats want to hammer you from the warden to the US district attorney. As some one else mentioned if you have to dump them keep quite about it. danny
I forgot to add that the state F&G brought the original charges at the bequest of the feds.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:19 pm

BigSky56 wrote:Hillbilly, a few years back a young man dumped a elk near Rainbow lake in the Yaak broke it down left it overnight returned with 3 other guys to pack it out a grizz forted up on it even though the guys backed off, alot of alder , the bear attacked the kid shot it in SD a jury found that it was SD mad about the jury the US F&G s cited him for a ESA killing and the kid refused to pay the feds put a lien on his property. Even when you do the right thing some bureaucrats want to hammer you from the warden to the US district attorney. As some one else mentioned if you have to dump them keep quite about it. danny
I forgot to add that the state F&G brought the original charges at the bequest of the feds.

It upsets me that you have to do more work to justify the killing of a bear than a man, even when you report it and try to do everything to the letter and spirit of the law. You pretty much have to give the bear first bite, and then you're still not clear. The inquests they hold where they send some DNR numbnuts fresh from college out to look at tracks are a farce.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:20 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:[
It upsets me that you have to do more work to justify the killing of a bear than a man, even when you report it and try to do everything to the letter and spirit of the law. You pretty much have to give the bear first bite, and then you're still not clear. The inquests they hold where they send some DNR numbnuts fresh from college out to look at tracks are a farce.

You got that right --- if Long stick ever has to go boom for me on a predator, its likely that not even this board will hear about it. Its still a shame ------ I dont want to deal with all the freaky rules if i can help it

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:15 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:It upsets me that you have to do more work to justify the killing of a bear than a man,...

I dunno... most Bears are nicer/easier to deal with than the ghetto Homies I have to deal with running around S-Chicago/NW-IN...

Much harder to justify killing a critter when it is simply exercising its own verson of the "Castle Doctrine"...

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:03 am

If you folks stuck in the lower 48 want to solve that red tape issue, there's an incredibly simple solution. Just release a few thousand brown bear on the western Cascades and a few thousand more back into central and southern California. It's on the Cal. state flag, after all! After enough rich people and movie stars get mauled there will be some restoration of common sense.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:23 am

Cosmoline, 2 or 3 years ago the actress andie Mcdowell had a summer home south of Missoula who was part of the save the wolf clan had some wolves come in her place and kill and eat her dogs, she sold her home and when asked about the wolves said " blank them" so your right if enough of the beautiful and enlightened ones get their ox gored things would change. danny

ohio hunter · Post by **ohio hunter** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:21 pm

I use the military way in such matters, dont ask, dont tell.
Old Ironsides, I about blew candy out my nose when I seen the alligator post!
Jay

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:13 pm

You can bet that various coalitions of greenies/socialists/eco-nazis are meeting at this very moment, planning & scheming about how to lock us "unwashed" out of the back country forever.

It ain't paranoia if they're really after you...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:50 pm

They just won't be happy unless you have to be a granola eating turd herder to get into the woods.

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:28 pm

This is why I taught my dog how to shoot and got him a carry permit

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:32 pm

Buck, They are having their way theve used the ESA regarding gizz bears & lynx the FS is taking comments to close 1300 miles of 2200 miles of FS roads left in the Kootenia and Idaho panhandle forests we had 8,000 at one time and theres nothing a person can do the FS is upset about it too seams the US F&G gets some data the clan of the cave bear and the friends of the three toed newt sue and the wacko judge in Missoula rules for them and the FS has to implement it. grizzlies , wolves and lions are rear end deep up here and they want more. After having a discussion with the region 1 forest supervisor what needs to be done is change the law so that lawsuits against the FS be handled like the other depts. Interior, blm or reclamation no injunctions or suits till you post a bond and its argued in court before a jury and no lawyer fees. Congress changed it years ago they need to go back to the original system. danny

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:44 pm

2ndovc wrote:I love these guys that think that you can go into the
forest with out some sort of protection.

Too much television, specifically, too much Disney...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:32 pm

BigSky56 wrote:Buck, They are having their way theve used the ESA regarding gizz bears & lynx the FS is taking comments to close 1300 miles of 2200 miles of FS roads left in the Kootenia and Idaho panhandle forests we had 8,000 at one time and theres nothing a person can do the FS is upset about it too seams the US F&G gets some data the clan of the cave bear and the friends of the three toed newt sue and the wacko judge in Missoula rules for them and the FS has to implement it. grizzlies , wolves and lions are rear end deep up here and they want more. After having a discussion with the region 1 forest supervisor what needs to be done is change the law so that lawsuits against the FS be handled like the other depts. Interior, blm or reclamation no injunctions or suits till you post a bond and its argued in court before a jury and no lawyer fees. Congress changed it years ago they need to go back to the original system. danny

The Kootenai can defend herself; sissies won't go far there. I'd be happy to die in that country.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:15 pm

Never assume, Mr. Morgan.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:12 pm

Went up today to the Summer home to mow the Lawn(Let it go 3 weeks,wont do that again.Was starting to turn into a green field.
One thing I used my older lawn Boy & Stihl FS86 brushcutter so after about 2.5 hrs. mission complete.(JD garden tractors battery was dead plus I have some fairly steep banks so just used push today.
Anyway in the daytime I usually dont feel a threat on the lawn.(Left the 45-70 in its case in the SUVs back seat.(Locked)had 5 rds in my ammo wallet in my pocket.I just figure I will chase the darn bear with my lawnboy

So I get around to the back of the house and here is this 3/4 eaten coyote carcuss and about 3 huge piles of bear stuff within 15 feet.Oh ya I started really keeping an eye out.I figure that thing ran in the woods deeper and was probably watching me?Still didnt get the gun though maybe I am a little dense.

There are bear everywhere around here now? Would have been carring my S&W 629 but its NYS not PA???????

Thinking about getting some of those 12ga. Lightfield Rubber Balls and shoot em in the but if they come in the yard?(when I am right by
the door of the house so I can get my but inside

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:09 am

madman4570 wrote:Went up today to the Summer home to mow the Lawn(Let it go 3 weeks,wont do that again.Was starting to turn into a green field.
One thing I used my older lawn Boy & Stihl FS86 brushcutter so after about 2.5 hrs. mission complete.(JD garden tractors battery was dead plus I have some fairly steep banks so just used push today.
Anyway in the daytime I usually dont feel a threat on the lawn.(Left the 45-70 in its case in the SUVs back seat.(Locked)had 5 rds in my ammo wallet in my pocket.I just figure I will chase the darn bear with my lawnboy So I get around to the back of the house and here is this 3/4 eaten coyote carcuss and about 3 huge piles of bear stuff within 15 feet.Oh ya I started really keeping an eye out.I figure that thing ran in the woods deeper and was probably watching me?Still didnt get the gun though maybe I am a little dense.
There are bear everywhere around here now? Would have been carring my S&W 629 but its NYS not PA???????
Thinking about getting some of those 12ga. Lightfield Rubber Balls and shoot em in the but if they come in the yard?(when I am right by
the door of the house so I can get my but inside

What makes you think a flimsy door or window will keep a upset-off bear at bay?