OT - Long rifles

[Ysabel Kid]

Say one was interested in getting a nice long rifle, ala a "Kentucky" or "Pennsylvania" style black powder muzzle-loader. After watching "Sergeant York" Memorial Day with Y2K (he uses a blackpowder rifle to win the shooting contest), and watching "Last of the Mohicans" again (for the zillonith time) a few weeks ago, I am getting the hankering again. Do any of you fellows own one of these types, and what do you like and dislike about it? Flintlock or percussion? Caliber?

Chris, I know you own a nice muzzle-stuffer. Can you let me know where you got yours and who made it?

[Pete44ru]

Kid, if you're going to hunt with it - and foul weather is a possibility - then a caplock is more weather-proof than a flinter.

If you're only going to play, or hunt in bluebird weather, than I would recommend a .50 flinter.

You MIGHT be as surprised as I was to discover the extremely fast ignition that can be had from a properly set-up, good-quality flintlock.

I would advise you to seek out a good quality, but factory rifle - like the Austin & Halleck I sold on leverguns [ http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=210648 ]
This is the caplock version:



, or alternatively a Lyman Great Plains or a Hatfield Mountain or Squirrel Rifle.

.

[gamekeeper]

Jay, I hate to say this because I love Flintlocks but if I were you I'd definitely buy a CapLock.
The Flinter can be very frustrating at the range unless you have everything set up just right.
I had more fun with my Flinters just walking around the fields.
Get a good quality rifle too, the cheaper ones just don't look the part to me and I have had problems with both Armi-Sport and Pedersoli Kentucky rifles.

[rjohns94]

Jay,

I bought mine from Cabin Creek muzzleloading here in PA. A google search will get you to the website. Several of us here have one from there. I own a flinter in .54 caliber, a virginia rifle done in fancy cherry. Here is why: Pa has a late flintlock only season. No percussion allowed. Where ever you can hunt with percussion, you can hunt with a flintlock, but not vice versa. Caliber was chosen because some states have mins on what you can use for larger game. My thoughts were, if I wanted to hunt any animal in north america, I wanted to have the rilfe I could do it with. The .54 meets that requirement. .45 is enough for whitetail. .50 is compromise between the two. .32 is a nice turkey gun. If you buy quality, you wont have any problem with an out of tune flinter. Cabin Creek uses quality locks, tunes them perfectly and they shoot nearly as fast as a percussion rifle. I use a leather cows knee in rain to keep my powder/frizzen dry. and here is a statement: I have never had a misfire in the field in 10 years of using this rifle. It is one of the most accurate rifles I have owned. I shoot cloverleaf pattens at 75 yards all day long, offhand. The rifle balances that well. My first blackpowder rifle was a caplock in .45 that i bought at kmart in the late 70s. My next was Hatfield caplock in .54. I shot it quite a lot and was offered more money than I paid for it one day and sold it. Ten years ago, I bought a fowler flinter in .62 bore while I waited for my rifle to be built and fell in love with the flintlocks. I would never go back. If you have the last of the mohicans bug, then only a flinter will serve your needs. That period of American History is my favorite and I will never move forward when it comes to BP rifles. You need to try a quality piece to be convinced. I would gladly send you mine and the balls and load data for you to try. Once you have a loading routine that includes cleaning the flint, picking the flash hole and proper pan charging, all for a rifle with a well tuned and quality lock, you won't be able to wipe the smile off your place. Frustration comes when a slow tuned lock and lack of follow through on the shot gives erratic performance. Won't happen with the quality rifles. PA is home to some great traditionalist. Brad Emig is one of them, who apprenticed at the shop in Williamsburg and does it all as it was in the 1700's. He only makes true replicas of period rifles. Contact me if you want me to send the rifle down to you. I will want it back before erly muzzle loading season though. I will also note that Track of the Wolves has excellent kits, and the Brown Bess I got from Cable is a beautiful quality rifle. It is a fine shooter as well. It has not made blood yet as I just got it but I hope too come September. muzzleloading magazine is a top notch rag and has many aritsans listed in its classifieds If you went to a rendevous, you could see many of the rifles first hand. I will try to post some nice pics of my rifle later, will have to take some that befits its beauty and function.

[Hobie]

I strongly believe that just about anybody CAN make a working cap-lock but only a few seem to be able to put together a sure-fire flintlock. I think you need to do a lot more research to find a correct flintlock than an acceptable cap-lock. With our modern shooting style you might find some configurations of flintlocks to be a bit uncomfortable maybe even awkward.

[hondo1892]

I have two longrifles from Allen Martin and both are great. They are flintlocks and they do take more consentration to shoot well, but I like the challeng. I have taken several deer with flintlocks over the years. You can check out Allens rifles at allenmartinrifles.com and it you go to the Berks County page under the custom rifles and I own the third one down. It has a very long barrel 44" and is 50 caliber but it is very light and balances well. This is do to the swamped barrel. It is a little over an inch at the breach but tapers down quit thin and widens back up a liitle at the muzzle. I wouldn't own anothe long rifle without a swamped barrel. My other rifle from him is a schimmel, which is a plain jane except for the piece of wood. A really nice chunk of curly maple. It has a 38" barrel and my daughter took it away from me. Thats why I own two of Allens rifles. She shot her first deer with it a couple of years ago. Allen is one of the best makers out there right now and his waiting list is long. But you can find good rifle out there on a lot of sites. Check out the Contemporary Longrifle Association site at longrifle.ws. They always have some rifles for sale. Rjohns94 Brad and his son Shane are both very tallented and they have started giving classes on building there kits. They had two, week long classes this year do to the demand.

[C. Cash]

Hey Jay,

I understand the Long Rifle obsession. I drempt about them since I was a kid, and finally had to scratch the itch here a few years ago. Mine is from Tennesee Valley Manufacturing. This is Jack Garner's outfit. He is famous for his affordable kits...mostly his Tennessee or Southern style kits but his other stuff is good too. Mine is the Early Lancaster kit. I already had the barrel and his parts set sans barrel was about 330 bucks. I then gave it to a local builder and he built it for about 400 bucks so about 730 total.



my first real shot with it(long story as to why it was only one shot)


As noted, a finely tuned flint is shockingly fast. It's not ffft boom, klatch boom......it's more just a quick boom, at least with 4F prime.

There is alot of good choices in kits, parts and builders. TAKE YOUR TIME if you decide to find a builder. Ask around about him and look at samples of his work. You want someone who will honor their word and do a good job. I've had one bad experience and one good experience so far. Take your time and handle what you can. A straight 42" barrel, even in 54 caliber is going to be heavy. A swamped barrel(more expensive) will take away the muzzle heaviness and it will feel more finely balanced in your hands. But the heavy barrel has the advantage when off hand as it hangs on target well. The Early Lancaster with the flat butt and lessened drop is easier to shoot in the "modern style" as Hobie alludes to. Just some things to think about. Don't overlook the VA styled rifles either with their English styled locks. They are correct for French and Indian(Last of the Mohicans), Revolution and Long Hunter type stuff. If your looking at wood.....make sure that it is suitably hard to stand up to lock bolt tightening. I wouldn't skimp on anything. Jim Chambers locks are great and I hear his kits are also great. Cabin Creek might be a good way to go as well. Just take your time and investigate before you jump in both feet, and let us know how it goes. Hope this helps. Chris

[C. Cash]

I have two longrifles from Allen Martin and both are great.

He is regarded as one of the best out there for sure, and lives not far away from me. I hope to have him engrave my Early Lancaster with my name and a motto. The wait time for some of the "master builders" are 4+ years! Never hurts to try though. Most are good fellas that will give you direction even if they can't help you right off. My next dream rifle is a Ken Guy Left Handed East Tenn. rifle in the Bean style(the obsession continues, just like with the levers).

[O.S.O.K.]

Guess those replies really narrow it down for you huh YK?

Well, you did ask a rather open ended question....

I would recommend getting a caplock to start with. As mentioned, the flinters are great if set up right but there's aonther part to them - they are "weird" to shoot - they take quite a bit of practice to shoot well because of the flash and whoosh going off right in front of your nose. I've seen countless pictures of people shooting them and their eye's are closed! That's not conducive to good accuracy. Yes, with practice that becomes a non-issue but it is a challenge and if you just want to get out and have an enjoyable time shooting it might be better to start with a caplock.

As to the type to recommend - that depends on your application, and $$$ amount that you want to lay down for one. There's a huge range.

I personally own 5 muzzle loaders: an old H&R 58 caliber Huntsman (in-line), two CVA mountain rifles - 50 and 58 calibers (caplocks), a TC Renegade 50 cal (caplock) and a TC Stainless Omega 50 cal (inline).

I had a nice Pedersoli Kentucky with two locks - cap and flinter - but traded it off recently.

I will end with this comment - if you just want a good shooting rifle that will present the least amount of time to get your balls or conicals hitting to point of aim and making small groups, then go with a Thomson Center model of your choice - Hawken, used Renegade, White Mountain, New Englander, etc. They are very good quality rifles, feature adjustable rear sights and have 1:48 twist rates (IIRC) so that you can shoot balls or conicals.

[rjohns94]

I would second the recommendation on the swamped barrels. Mine is such and is a dream to shoot.

here is the link to cabin creek: http://cabincreek.net/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=25

My rifle is the Custom Virginia rifle and has a 42 inch swamped Colerain Barrel and a Hand-Tuned Large Siler Lock are featured on this gun. It is finished with Traditional finishes on both the wood and metal. It also has several german silver inlays.

I am aware of the classes at Cabin Creek. Infact, they just ran two of them in the month of May I think.

[C. Cash]

You will probably not notice the flash much at all on a Flintlock, unless your not doing something right. If your focused on your target it is a very minor thing that you will not have time to pick up on. You will shake your head in disbelief that it works and works so well and quickly. Make sure your flint is sharp and secure in the jaws, and your interior free from Oil, and you should not have a problem at all provided the gun and lock were built correctly. I would not shy away from one at all, and would prefer it over the cap myself. Something special about a Flintlock. That said, a T/C Renegade in caplock is VERY NICE as well. Wish I would not have sold mine.

[hondo1892]

Here are some photos of my baby. I added a powder horn that I made also. I have a percussion S. Hawken rifle also but I can load my flinter much faster. I don't use 4f for primer anylonger either. I use the same powder for my main charge. I have been told that the coarser stuff has a coating to help prevent moister absorbtion. I don't know if it's true but I've never had the coarser stuff get gummy on me in wet weather like the 4f.

[deerwhacker444]

.
I got one, a .40 that a friend assembled for me. I've since started putting together a LH Flinty pistol. It's a learning process. I'd suggest you find someone who's put together a few to build you one since there are definitely tricks to putting one together, I'm learning as I go....$$$ .

I bought an A. Verner parts set from Precatonica River however there are other places to purchase them.

Track of the Wolf is another good place to look at some custom/semi custom jobs and to learn, they also sell parts kits.





I've shot caplocks for many years. IMO there's really not much difference between a caplock and a modern rifle, except for the black smoke. Caplocks go off really quick. If you really want to see if you're a salty dog, try a flintlock, it's a whole different animal. A well tuned Flinty will go off surprisingly fast, however theres that little explosion right in front of your face that you must ignore. It requires a ton more concentration (at least for me) to hit what your aiming at. FLINCHING MUST BE CONTROLLED, which is a struggle for me every time I pull the trigger on it. But I will say that learning to shoot a Flinty will greatly improve your accuracy when shooting modern rifles.

[hondo1892]

Aint it great seeing all these purty rifles.

[gamekeeper]

Aint it great seeing all these purty rifles.

+ 1 sure is

[hondo1892]

My powder horn didn't show up the last post so I'll try again. This blackpowder bug is bad.

[Timothy]

How do you set up a flintlock the right way, is there actuall tuning of the action involved or conditioning the flint? Just curious

[hondo1892]

A flint lock has to have the right geometry to work right. It also needs a good strong main spring and polished surfaces so you get as much speed as possible for fast ignition. There are other tricks to get them working better but you would need to talk to some of the builders that have tuned locks for years. As far as flints go you need a sharp flint for good ignition. Some like the cut flints and others like the napped flints. Just has to be sharp and adjusted right. My rifles work best when the flint is about a sixteenth of an inch from the frizzen when ith hammer(or cock, 18th century term) is at halfcock.

[deerwhacker444]

How do you set up a flintlock the right way, is there actuall tuning of the action involved or conditioning the flint? Just curious

Alot of the flintlock lock parts are cast and not cleaned up as much as they can be. I take my locks apart and machine everything to fit properly and square, kinda like blueprinting an engine, everything is where the design intended. The leaf spring locks like Siler or L&R are much faster than the Italian imports coil spring versions.

[Rusty]

I'd second the Cabin Creek purchase. I had a .45 Yorktown and it shot great. A well set up flinter is just as fast as a cap gun it just takes practice to load it right to make it that way. If I were starting though I think I'd go with a cap gun. sometimes you just want to shoot and you don't want to be bothered with everything that goes on with a flinter.

My first ML was a Great Plains Rifle that I ended up fitting a .45 cal barrel to. It shot as good as any centerfire rifle at 100 yards.

I would add though that if you want a rifle for tree rats go with a .36 or a .40. I had a .32 and they're just too small and a lot more picky that the larger bores. I still have a .36 halfstock cap gun with a Douglas barrel.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Lots of good advice here boys.

The folks at Frendship IN. (the NMLRA`s home range)
say on a rainy day that most of the misfires come from the cap locks!!! The rock gun boys are just more careful I guess or more educated in the use of their firelocks.

I would look at and handle as many long guns as you can and go from there,Buy the type you like best.
If you buy a flintlock get a top of the line makers lock and don`t look back. Now days they are almost all very good and will spark very well.

Several years ago I purchased a set of man made flints that are made of gem stones ( Ruby, Sapphire ,etc) fused together under high heat like a post 64 Win receiver.
Those flints last forever and the only miss fires I have had is when I forget to wipe the flint between shots.

Shoot and enjoy!!

[6pt-sika]

Now anyone who has read much of what I posted knows I like the Savage 10ML smokless powder ML and the Knight Disc Rifles in 45 and 50 .

However over the last 10-12 months I have become very very intrested in Contemporary Flintlocks and have acquired a few !

My first was a 45 caliber Dickert rifle that was made by Blackhart . Got this rifle on this forum form our own "Cable" !

My second very shortly after was a Virginia style 50 cal flinter that was made by one of Brad Emig's guys .

And just before I left the US for PI I sent Clay Smith money for a 54 cal Isaac Haines rifle he was selling for a friend . This rifle was built by Getz's brother in law and I have Clay fitting a sliding wooden patchbox to the rifle .

Here are three pics of the 45 and 50 .










The Dickert has the brass patchbox and the Virginia style rifle has the sliding wooden patchbox !

I would love to include pics of the Isaac Haines rifle , but to be honest I have not seen the rifle in person yet !

[6pt-sika]

Icidently the rifle Alvin York shot in his matches is called an "Over the Log" rifle or a "Chunk Gun" . One of my shooting buddies here in Virginia had Al Edge build him a chunk gun a few years back . Sorry to say I do not have any pics of the rifle . But I can tell you this . His rifle is percussion and looks quite nice , but it weighs about 20-25 pounds !

[C. Cash]

Another facet of the Longrifle sickness: Horns! Hondo, very nice btw. Nice rifles Chuck 100 and 6pt!!

[kimwcook]

Beautiful rifles and horns, guys. Love'em. I've never had a flinter, just caplocks. Watching "Last of the Mohicans" will fuel the fire. If you need it.

[C. Cash]

Beautiful rifles and horns, guys. Love'em. I've never had a flinter, just caplocks. Watching "Last of the Mohicans" will fuel the fire. If you need it.

That's a great one kimwcook to fire the desire, as is Jeremiah Johnson. I sometimes hum the theme to LOTM while doing mundane tasks....makes me feel like I'm doing something more important!