Barnes Bullets.

[tusker]

Hi guys,i,ve been looking at Barnes bullets and i would like to know what you all think of them.More importently how do they perform in the 45-70 Marlin 1895.I would like to find info on reloading them,powders and wieght of powders etc.I would be using them for hunting.
Many thanks, Tusker

[deerwhacker444]

Howdy Tusker, I use Barnes bullets in .243(85gr.) and .270(110gr.), but I don't own a .45-70, so no help there. The bullets perform admirably from the calibers above on deer sized game.

[HEAD0001]

I swore myself off of Barnes bullets 5 or 6 times over the years. Each time I went back to try them again, and was disappointed every time. The X-bullets were not very accurate in any of my rifles. And now their newer bullets are extremely overpriced. I have noticed that some people are getting some good results from the newer bullets----but at what price!! They are just too overpriced for me, and I truly have lost confidence in them. I do not think I will go back to them again?? But you never know??

And yes I did shoot their 45-70 bullets. I have one of their loading manuals if you have any questions(e-mail me), however last time I checked they did publish their data. But that has been a while ago. The 45-70 bullets performed alright, but not exceptional. But then how much does it take to kill a deer with a 45-70. Tom.

[El Chivo]

I ordered some bullets from Barnes and they enclosed a short DVD with several animal kills including elephants. They all went down at the sound of the shot, as if they were jerked down by strings.

There is also a chapter on performance in gelatin, showing a much larger wound cavity than with lead. The bullets expand immediately at the hide, so the wound cavity is cylindrical (and a big cylinder at that). Lead creates a more cone-shaped wound channel because the expansion is gradual and pieces come off the bullet as well.

If you look at the bullets, you can see four petals that peel back and create a sharp cutting wheel that is spinning as it goes in. Ouch. Not the deadliest mushroom in the woods, but the deadliest flower.

One hint, you have to keep your velocity up or they won't expand. Barnes will tell you the minimum impact velocity required for the 45/70 bullet. They told me the spire points require 1800 fps, the 30-30 1400 fps, and the pistol bullets 800 fps. So, if you take really long shots, you might be hitting your game with a non-expanding bullet, if the velocity drops too much.

I would bet the 45/70 bullet is more in the range of the pistol bullets because the nose looks similar. Write to Barnes and ask them exactly what it is, and ask for their DVD.

I haven't had hit anything but paper with one, but I'm hoping for a clean kill at my next opportunity.

[Charles]

There was a time in years gone by when the original Barnes bullets were very different. Barnes was sorta botique speciality bullet, with low production.
They were made from pure copper tubing stuffed with dead soft pure lead. In some calibers they offered a choice of jacket/tube thickness. These bullet hit game, mashed up and kept on going. They were offered in some obsolete and unpopular calibers and some heavier than normal weights. I still have a small hoard (400 bullets) of 225 grain 30 caliber original Barnes.

Original Barnes gave only so-so accuracy, but were game killing jessies which is what they were intended to be.

For whatever reason Barnes decided it wanted to join the big boys ans abandoned their original concept. That is when I quit them. I am sure they have not missed me.

[Bear 45/70]

The 45/70 was designed for lead bullets. That jacketed stuff is for noobees to the 45/70.

[Mike D.]

The 45/70 was designed for lead bullets. That jacketed stuff is for noobees to the 45/70.

That's a BIG negatory, Bear. Later .45-70s, especially the lightweight 1886s and the ORIGINAL and ONLY Marlin 1895 were built for high velocity jacketed bullets. I seldom use lead in my .45 caliber rifles and when I do it is ONLY those that are hard cast and can be driven in excess of 2000FPS. Old, slow, rainbow trajectory cartridges don't really interest me. My 1910s to '30s original .45-70 and .45-90 Winchesters thrive on a diet of exclusively jacketed bullets, especially the Barnes 350 RN. Mulies at over 300 yds have fallen to the puny little 300 grain Barnes Original.

[Bear 45/70]

The 45/70 was designed for lead bullets. That jacketed stuff is for noobees to the 45/70.

That's a BIG negatory, Bear. Later .45-70s, especially the lightweight 1886s and the ORIGINAL and ONLY Marlin 1895 were built for high velocity jacketed bullets. I seldom use lead in my .45 caliber rifles and when I do it is ONLY those that are hard cast and can be driven in excess of 2000FPS. Old, slow, rainbow trajectory cartridges don't really interest me. My 1910s to '30s original .45-70 and .45-90 Winchesters thrive on a diet of exclusively jacketed bullets, especially the Barnes 350 RN. Mulies at over 300 yds have fallen to the puny little 300 grain Barnes Original.

I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side of the mountains I've never shot a deer at over 100 yards since I got into 45/70s. Beside, the old west guys used to shoot accurately using the old rainbow ballistics of the Trapdoor 45/70 loads, why can't you? I only use lead in all my 45 caliber rifles and pistol (that would be a .458 caliber pistol). The closest mulies are on the other side of the mountains and I have much better guns in calibers more suited for that kind of shooting. Besides that, you don't need expanding bullets with a 45 caliber rifle cartridge to kill deer, or bears for that matter. Also with the right lead bullets you can drive them at 2000-2100 fps, so why use expensive, unnecessary jacketed bullets?

[Mike D.]

Where I live and hunt, lead is outlawed , so my hundreds of fine, Oregon Trail bullets will have to rest in their boxes. I shoot jacketed copper bullets out of necessity, therefore remaining ahead of the curve, as it were. It won't be more than a couple of years before lead is banned nationwide, so y'all had better stock up on those overpriced CU pills while you can.

[gary rice]

I swore myself off of Barnes bullets 5 or 6 times over the years. Each time I went back to try them again, and was disappointed every time. The X-bullets were not very accurate in any of my rifles. And now their newer bullets are extremely overpriced. I have noticed that some people are getting some good results from the newer bullets----but at what price!! They are just too overpriced for me, and I truly have lost confidence in them. I do not think I will go back to them again?? But you never know??

And yes I did shoot their 45-70 bullets. I have one of their loading manuals if you have any questions(e-mail me), however last time I checked they did publish their data. But that has been a while ago. The 45-70 bullets performed alright, but not exceptional. But then how much does it take to kill a deer with a 45-70. Tom.

I hate them in my 45-70, dont like the cost either.

[Bear 45/70]

Where I live and hunt, lead is outlawed , so my hundreds of fine, Oregon Trail bullets will have to rest in their boxes. I shoot jacketed copper bullets out of necessity, therefore remaining ahead of the curve, as it were. It won't be more than a couple of years before lead is banned nationwide, so y'all had better stock up on those overpriced CU pills while you can.

There is another reason to force the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia to either rejoin the Union or fall off into the Pacific Ocean. Oh and I think you are wrong about a nation wide ban. Are they gonna outlaw wheel weights too?

[Mike D.]

I'm sorry, but the situation will soon worsen to the point that wheel weights will join the non-lead parade. Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting. It has been many years since the Feds banned lead in the waterfowl blinds, so it stands to reason that lead bullets will be next to be prohibited nationwide.

[HEAD0001]

Where I live and hunt, lead is outlawed , so my hundreds of fine, Oregon Trail bullets will have to rest in their boxes. I shoot jacketed copper bullets out of necessity, therefore remaining ahead of the curve, as it were. It won't be more than a couple of years before lead is banned nationwide, so y'all had better stock up on those overpriced CU pills while you can.

Please accept my apology for my following remark. However I can not consider putting up with those nuts as being "ahead of the curve". I do not mean anything personal by saying that, but things have gotten out of hand.

I believe you are right. I believe they are going to come after the lead bullets we use. It is just another way the anti's can take our rights away without legislation. Obama can just do it with a stroke of the pen!!!!! The lead ban on motorcycles was one of the first things Obama signed with a stroke of the pen, and with no legislation. No one even knew he was doing it until after it was done. Just ask your motorcycle dealer. It has cost them millions.

IMO this ban is one of the reasons that Barnes has such ridiculous prices. They know they can bend you guys over a barrel. If and when it comes to a lead ban there will be several bullet manufacturers out there. Tom.

[El Chivo]

Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting.

What is the improvement if the condors are shot with non-lead as opposed to lead? The lead ban was to keep them from eating it, not being shot by it.

I believe that the Barnes are expensive because each one is CNC'd to its final shape; they're not cast in multiple molds. I don't think competition will reduce the price all that much. There are some other makers doing lead-free but they use pressed composite materials, and are just doing rimfire. I don't think that will work for a big game bullet. All the other ammo makers are just buying the bullets from Barnes and loading them in their ammo.

Sure, it sounds bad to pay $1 a bullet, or $3.00 a round for factory. But lots of bolt guns have had $3.00 ammo for years. If you just use those for hunting, how many rounds is that? I've fired 3 shots in 3 seasons, and only one at a deer. Considering gas, time, hiking boots, trail mix, Gatorade, it's pretty cheap to go with the best in bullets.

I used about 20 rounds to develop a load and sight in. I will have to sight again this year because I'm removing my scope, but once I'm done, I'm done.

What you should do is come up with a load using jacketed bullets of the same weight that strikes close to the Barnes. Then you can practice with that, and save your Barnes for the field.

[gary rice]

Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting.

What is the improvement if the condors are shot with non-lead as opposed to lead? The lead ban was to keep them from eating it, not being shot by it.

I believe that the Barnes are expensive because each one is CNC'd to its final shape; they're not cast in multiple molds. I don't think competition will reduce the price all that much. There are some other makers doing lead-free but they use pressed composite materials, and are just doing rimfire. I don't think that will work for a big game bullet. All the other ammo makers are just buying the bullets from Barnes and loading them in their ammo.

Sure, it sounds bad to pay $1 a bullet, or $3.00 a round for factory. But lots of bolt guns have had $3.00 ammo for years. If you just use those for hunting, how many rounds is that? I've fired 3 shots in 3 seasons, and only one at a deer. Considering gas, time, hiking boots, trail mix, Gatorade, it's pretty cheap to go with the best in bullets.

I used about 20 rounds to develop a load and sight in. I will have to sight again this year because I'm removing my scope, but once I'm done, I'm done.

What you should do is come up with a load using jacketed bullets of the same weight that strikes close to the Barnes. Then you can practice with that, and save your Barnes for the field.

i tried the barnes 300 grn tsx in my 45-70. i sighted in using the sierra 300 grain bullet hoping the barnes would print close with the same powder charge. didnt happen. the barnes wants to fly another foot higher than the sierra with the same weight.

[Bear 45/70]

I'm sorry, but the situation will soon worsen to the point that wheel weights will join the non-lead parade. Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting. It has been many years since the Feds banned lead in the waterfowl blinds, so it stands to reason that lead bullets will be next to be prohibited nationwide.

That kind of thinking is what has gotten our economy in the mess it is in. Some people seem to forget way to often that ;

"EXCELLENT is the enemy of GOOD!"

We don't need everything perfect, especially when it cost 50 times more to achieve excellence when good will get the job done.

[shawn_c992001]

I've had great results out of the "Flying Trash Cans" out of my 1895. I push them to top velocity with a dose of RL-7. Accuracy is great too, open sights at 100 yield 1.5" for 3 shots.

[Bear 45/70]

I'm sorry, but the situation will soon worsen to the point that wheel weights will join the non-lead parade. Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting. It has been many years since the Feds banned lead in the waterfowl blinds, so it stands to reason that lead bullets will be next to be prohibited nationwide.

This logic or lack of logic is amazing. Someone illegally shoots some Condors and rather than blame the irresponsible scum balls, the powers that be will blame the lead pellets and outlaw them. And you wonder why crime is rampant. Oh, I checked and there is no total lead ban in Kallifornia, only parts of it, the same as it is here. Oh also you are way behind the times. Lots of places have outlawed lead shot for bird hunting. Why do you think steel shot was created?

[handyrandyrc]

Nobody shot a condor, from what I understand. The condor ate game containing lead pellets, and ingested them.

[Kansas Ed]

Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting.

I believe that the Barnes are expensive because each one is CNC'd to its final shape; they're not cast in multiple molds. I don't think competition will reduce the price all that much. There are some other makers doing lead-free but they use pressed composite materials, and are just doing rimfire. I don't think that will work for a big game bullet. All the other ammo makers are just buying the bullets from Barnes and loading them in their ammo.

Sorry, but as a prior NC machinist I can tell you that the fallacy in that remark is uninformed. It is much cheaper to operate a small NC lathe than it is to operate a small foundry. The cost difference is in the cost of copper, verses the cost of lead cores. Once a high speed NC machine is set, it can crank out hundreds of bullets an hour, with minimal input from the machinist, and using copper, tooling lasts indefinitely. One talented machinist can operate up to 3 or 4 machines simultaneously (I know, I did) Initial cost of the equipment keeps the small time guy from taking over. Once you've seen the operation of a High Speed NC machine like the Fadals or the Makino's you would understand. The whole "CNC" game is just a gimmick for advertising. If it were really driven by quality instead of cost, no company would have them. Companies have them because they are cheaper to operate and give more return for the investment.

BTW: I also gave up Barnes when they abandoned their roots. They made a great bullet before, now they make a "gimmick" bullet. I once wrote them and asked how they felt about their X bullets in turn of the century rifle barrels...they wrote me back with a non-answer. They wouldn't commit to recommending them for old barrels, yet they discontinued their "Original" line.

Ed

[Idiot]

I've not shot Barnes Bullets in 45/70 Government. It is my opinion that the 45/70 doesn't need to expand to be effective. A review of Grizz' and the Alsatian's posts prove that to be a undisputed fact. I think expansion of an already 46 caliber bullet flying at a pedestrian pace actually impeeds performance. So, if it were me, and it will be once I obtain another 45/70, I'd stick with good solid hard cast lead bullets like those sold by Beartooth Bullets.

Now as far as Barnes Bullets are concerned, I think they make one of the best, if not the best, controlled expansion bullets on the market. If you want some expansion balanced with good penetration, then the Barnes X-Bullet is the bullet. I found a small stash of Barnes X-Bullets for my 348 Winchester; they shoot as accurate as the factory Silver-Tips and should out penetrate them when deep penetration is needed. I really wish I had bought more before they were discontinued.

Oh, and BTW, they were discontinued for market reasons, not performance. There were some levergunners, steeped in nostalgia, who were unwilling to buy something new even if it performed well, coupled with the fact that the bullets were very expensive, neither of which helped the market, so the .348 Barnes X-Bullet bit the dust.

As far as apples to apples, Barnes X-Bullets are comprable to other bullets in the "Premium Bullet" line of bullets. NONE OF WHICH ARE NEEDED IN A 45/70 GOVERNMENT.

[rimrock]

On p. 1 of this thread, Miked. said, in part, "the situation will soon worsen to the point that wheel weights will join the non-lead parade." Bushy started it before Obama, See http://www.epa.gov/osw/hazard/wastemin/nlfwwi.htm. If you search on world copper prices, you'll see that China bought up the supply in 2008, and that 2009 price is expected to be 40% lower. Demand for copper is now way down for reasons like automobile purchases. There is over 2 miles of copper wire in each vehicle purchased in the US, and also US munition supplies are dwindling down to zero reserves. So, it will take 12-18 months after the bottom price for US consumers to see a lower price--although like gasoline, unlikely to return to historical low prices. This time lag occurs because manufacturers will use up their higher costing goods first. The lead problem is not so much about eating a specific animal, but rather about toxic accumulations in places like shooting ranges. you grip about the way BATF administers its power, but if the EPA says you're contaminating ground water, it only gonna be $$$$$$$ for lawyers, contractors, hazardous waste haulers, etc. The antis simply chose a path of predictable least resistance (in Kommifornica) to get another prong of the lead ban going.

[tusker]

Many thanks for all your input on this subject.I didnt realise that you had a problem with some folks wanting to ban lead.It is obviusly a back door ban stratagy by the anti,s and must be repelled In England lead has been banned in shotgun cartridges when shooting over wetland etc ,some folks dont think that the alturnatives kill as clean as lead.
As for the Barnes bullets in my 45-70 , i think that i will stick with the Hornady,s.
Tusker

[Travis Morgan]

The 45/70 was designed for lead bullets. That jacketed stuff is for noobees to the 45/70.

Or sticks in the mud that refuse to recognise a far superior product. Is your last name "O'Conner"?

[Travis Morgan]

Now that two of the Pinnacles flock of Condors have been found wounded with shotgun pellets, I fear that no-lead shot will also be required for bird hunting.

What is the improvement if the condors are shot with non-lead as opposed to lead? The lead ban was to keep them from eating it, not being shot by it.

If they'd have use steel or plated shot, they probably wouldn't have found those darned birds! Some idiot hippie probably would still found lead shot, though!

[Leverluver]

The basic Barnes expanding bullets ARE made in press equipment (pull up their patent) not unlike what is used for lead cored bullets and once they are set up, they are much faster than CNC equipment. Before the triple shocks, there were no operations that were on CNC but now the grooves are cut by CNC but only as a secondary operation and for the grooves only. The solids are totally made on CNC but they are brass so they are very easy (read fast) to do. Machining pure or mostly pure copper bullets or jackets is an S*B and absolutely nothing like machining brass, which is a piece of cake.

[Bogie35]

Nobody shot a condor, from what I understand. The condor ate game containing lead pellets, and ingested them.

I saw a show on the National Geographic channel the other day. They found a dead condor. The wildlife biologist said it was probably due to lead poisoning. They later found out that the bird had choked on a coin (a quarter to be exact)! Hopefully, they won't ban quarters! All the "Darwinians" in California should know that "natural selection" is not a big fan of birds that go around eating coins.

What California needs is fewer condors and more American crows. Now THAT'S a bird! They eat all the dead carcasses and are hard to kill even when you SHOOT them with lead shot!



bogie

[Bear 45/70]

The 45/70 was designed for lead bullets. That jacketed stuff is for noobees to the 45/70.

Or sticks in the mud that refuse to recognise a far superior product. Is your last name "O'Conner"?

If my lead bullet kills the animal dead, and they have every time I've pulled the trigger for that purpose, then your superior bullet theory would only be appropriate if your supposedly superior bullet kills the animal deader. It can't, so you would be wrong in you contention.
Besides, why on earth would you need to expand a .458" bullet? If you were using itty bitty 30 caliber bullets then maybe expansion and destroying meat would make sense, but with a 45 cal. rifle bullet, just not necessary.

[Travis Morgan]

Yeah, a .45-70 never ruins meat, huh?

You're also forgetting that a better bullet can be used with less power.

[Bear 45/70]

Yeah, a .45-70 never ruins meat, huh?

You're also forgetting that a better bullet can be used with less power.

Not with cast lead bullets it doesn't, at least I have not had the issue, but then I also don't try to drive these cast bullets to ultra sonic speeds either. Less power than "Trapdoor" speeds? I very much doubt your super great bullet would ever expand at 1000 fps.

[El Chivo]

The Barnes XPB pistol bullets will expand at only 800 fps.

Ty at Barnes is very helpful if you have questions.

[Bear 45/70]

The Barnes XPB pistol bullets will expand at only 800 fps.

Ty at Barnes is very helpful if you have questions.

But the question still remains, "Why?" It sure doesn't kill quicker or better than a cast lead bullet. Oh yeah and I doubt very much if a bullet will expand properly at 2000+ fps then it will expand properly at 800 fps regardless of what the manufacturer claims. It pretty much flies in the face of physics.

[Larry O]

I just got done reading all this stuff about Barnes bullets and now it is my turn. I have shot deer at some rather long ranges with Barnes bullets in my 45-90 with no problems and got a bunch of special order bullets for my 40-82 rifles from them. The only pleasure that I got with those bullets (260 grain jktd flatnose) was a baaaad pig who fell like she was poleaxed and a deer that was shot at about 150 yards. In that instance the bullet went through and did not open up but the liver looked liked a bowl of chopped jello. So, I can truthfully say that the instances that I stated indicate, to me, that these are pretty darn good bullets although they are a tad bit spendy.

[Travis Morgan]

The Barnes XPB pistol bullets will expand at only 800 fps.

Ty at Barnes is very helpful if you have questions.

But the question still remains, "Why?" It sure doesn't kill quicker or better than a cast lead bullet. Oh yeah and I doubt very much if a bullet will expand properly at 2000+ fps then it will expand properly at 800 fps regardless of what the manufacturer claims. It pretty much flies in the face of physics.

Oh, f@#$ it; I'm not gonna bother.

[Mike D.]

I have shot Laser-Cast hard lead bullets for years and really like them. I've also used Marshall's bullets to kill huge hogs and fat deer, but now that lead is a no-no I am forced to go the all copper route. The .458 350 Barnes RN is a superior elk and mulie killer, so if I travel to CO or MT, again, those will go with me.

BTW, the Condors I referred to were not harmed by "ingested" lead. They were hit by shotgun pellets as they cruised over some idiotic San Jose bangers. The California Condor is a relic of the ice age, and it's survival is nothing short of miraculous. It does not bother me one iota to shoot copper bullets through my old Winchesters. If some could be found in .428, they would be run through the '73, and .430s get the nod for the '92s. Soon enough, there will be an adequate supply of many diameters of copper bullets. They are the wave of the future, so you old "lead heads" might as well get used to it.